The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Dale]

Isn’t the Music City Star planning new cars and track upgrades in any case ?

[MLBrumby]

I know very little about transit, but seems to me there should be at least two criteria used to determine routes:

1. Go where there is already a relatively dense population who would use the transit

2. Go where the land is affordable and plentiful for rights-of-way for the route and future residential development

Spitballing here, but using my criteria above, it seems Murfreesboro Rd. would be the best choice between BNA & DT. 

[Hey_Hey]

I've always thought this is the lowest hanging fruit.  Airports have a plentiful supply of car-less people looking to get away from the airport, and the single largest geographic destination for these people is downtown Nashville.  Downtown also serves as the hub for the reminder of the transit system, so connections from feeder bus lines to the LRT/BRT line to the airport should be easy. The tourism component should support a decent level of service which goes a long way to getting other people on the trains or buses. 

While running this down Murfreesboro is the obvious first choice, I would also think running this down Nolensville and then out to the airport around Harding should also be a consideration. The Nolensville corridor should produce more trips than the Murfreesboro corridor, although the trip to the airport would probably be 50% longer and 50% more expensive. 

[rookzie]

The reason Memphis MATA never forged through with an airport line was two-fold: push-back from merchants along the proposed most logical and best route; and lack of funding to pursue it.  Merchants "feared" that the disruption during construction would kill their businesses.  While there is some truth to that, other urban districts have funded measures to offset and/or mitigate such losses.  MATA had been bad-off enough with streetcars that caught fire, due to deferred maintenance, and as you know, the streetcars were grounded fro several years by a moratorium, until relatively recently.

As far as the Nashville MCS route is concerned, IMHO,  I agree that M'boro Pk would be the most workable corridor for best access.  If it were to be in the form of LRT (light-rail transit), then it could be a hybrid solution, similar to the eastern portion of the Portland MAX Red Line (without the Beaverton half), serving PDU.  It could have the best of two worlds by serving the function of streetcar in the downtown area─running to an extent within mixed traffic, just as the MAX itself does, from Pioneer Square downtown Portland.  As you are aware, MAX has no terminal per se, where all the trains convene under cover separate from traffic.  All four of the LRT lines run through that area.  One secret to that success (arguable to many) is that Portland has made judicious use of one-way streets in downtown, to help get the trains into and away from downtown, while still serving local points like the Convention Center in the Lloyd District (East Portland) on surface streets, before assuming much of its own RoW farther out, as on the Banfield Expressway and on the I-205 median.  Access to BNA wouldn't necessarily need that kind of median expressway path, depending on a final analysis on an LPA (locally preferred alternative).

Currently, in the U.S. only Denver, South Bend, Miami, and Philadelphia have railroad-type access to their respective airports.  These are lines with FRA (Federal Railroad Administration) rail/equipment standards.  Ordinarily that would be the requirement for the MCS route, that railroad of which now is owned by R.J. Corman (since Jan 01).  Denver's A-Line is overkill, IMO, even for Denver, to have new EMU (self-propelled Electric Multiple Unit cars), basically FRA commuter rail compatible with freight movements (co-existent and concurrent), even though the A-Line is totally dedicated.  South Bend (from Chicago Millennium Station at Randolph Street) has it known as the "South Shore Line" (NICTD - Northern Indiana Commuter Transportation Disctrict), considered the last of the historic heavy "Interurbans" and always did mix freight with passenger, even before the line was extended to the airport.  Philly has it because SEPTA (SE'tern Pa. Transportation Auth.) was able to utilize a former reconstructed branch of the Pennsylvania RR  (and a current freight branch), extended in a "fishhook" path to serve 4 inline stops at PHL.  That line is considered "Regional Rail", with headways of some 30 minutes, and that also is one of the most expensive to operate─FAR too expensive, even if fares are kept manageable.

South Bend's,Philly's, and Denver's airport lines are electric, far more that what Nashville would need, or even would be affordable.   Miami's Tri-Rail is push-pull diesel-electric locomotive-hauled commuter, just as is the MCS.  IMO to employ the MCS route with decent headways would require some massive improvements which might be untenable, because of obstacles like the Omohundro water treatment plant, with narrow RoW.  The RJCorman needs to be able to run freight during the daylight periods, when the current MCS service is not running.  That requires both FRA compliance and additional trackwork to accommodate the traffic for MCS to run throughout the day and with frequency worthy of airport service.

There are examples of FRA variances granted for use of Diesel Multiple Units (DMUs) with freight lines,  Basically, DMU's are diesel-powered LRT cars, but usually are made with longer bodies for more capacity.  They actually are more compatible with railroad curves than transit curves, so their use is better suited for totally dedicated RoW.  That said, LRT really is more  amenable to serve downtown Nashville to BNA.  It would not need an existing RR and therefore potentially it could be made to terminate somewhere within the gulch district, with appropriate separation from RR activities, while still being highly accessible.

Additionally, some 6+ years ago, analysts recommended Lafayette Street as a thoroughfare highly accommodating of a transit corridor.  I would hope that the merits of LRT could become the  LPA, if any there's going to be any serious consideration at all.  Both LA and Toronto have had first-hand experience in migrating BRT to LRT.   An airport line needs to be able to "attract" ridership, not just provide service.  Just my take....
 

Edited March 15, 2019 by rookzie

[volsfanwill]

I'm just now seeing this. 

It should go down Murfreesboro rd. This would do several things. 

It would be a great sample for the city and county. Showing what transit can be. 

Yes that corridor is not the most densely populated. But, that can actually be an advantage. It is in desperate need of a cleanup. 

A transit line could be the catalyst for this.  For people complaining that development is spread everywhere. This could show that with transit, development could be focused on cooridors instead. 

Unrelated, I saw this and had to share. 

 

 

[nashwatcher]

Agree completely. This would be a giant step in the right direction. Run this thing down Murfreesboro Rd. Our tourism industry is so strong it alone will get great use out of this. Build affordable housing along Murfreesboro Rd for the thousands of downtown service workers that are part of the backbone of our tourism industry.

Also, the corridor becomes more dense. It will show how transit can help with sprawl. Ideally at the SoBro transit hub (built for future expansion) we'll have street cars as well to circulate tourists/workers around downtown so they can be dropped off near their final destinations.

 

[PruneTracy]

The problem with siting the line on Murfreesboro Pike or another dense corridor, as @PHofKS sort of alluded to,  is that it detracts from its role as an airport connector. Ideally the line only has two stops at the terminals (presumably Riverfront Station and the proposed multimodal terminal at the airport). The number of people who would use it at any intermediate stop is small relative to the number of people trying to get between the airport and downtown, so trying to include stops is a bit counterproductive. It's just slowing down the larger volumes of people trying to travel between the airport and downtown.

[Dale]

22 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

The problem with siting the line on Murfreesboro Pike or another dense corridor, as @PHofKS sort of alluded to,  is that it detracts from its role as an airport connector. Ideally the line only has two stops at the terminals (presumably Riverfront Station and the proposed multimodal terminal at the airport). The number of people who would use it at any intermediate stop is small relative to the number of people trying to get between the airport and downtown, so trying to include stops is a bit counterproductive. It's just slowing down the larger volumes of people trying to travel between the airport and downtown.

Are there any such airport connectors in North America ? Marta has several stops. Vancouver’s SkyTrain has as many as ten stops, Etc.

[nashvylle]

Same folks you think of already hate the plan. 

https://www.facebook.com/Stop-Crazy-Transit-Plan-Again-258116538402852/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARC5SOvnmFLlGqkyCxVaw7C2M5apZTY4XP1UV2oZmMR1EoUWSpmTVaGfpN2_pAgKwW5QS2QMfMP63JkF&hc_ref=ARS_IduvRXhiR4biL-dDn6oacQlnK-F5xXamMChgwBcA1fd_S755xeOjdDw4gqcVTSQ&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARCJgQ-9mBMcaNBxOTSFDCirFa1dAx17WRWnIDvo5F9MHw8f7pxo_cVnRgqz5v2gH_XoUPLR4T7K2ecWWqFzviUqaKXXNm9IEd7H-IQazoOO3NCVgkT-kMNB1nfk2F1tAyk-g-GoDNJ6kJhG8N2XUuXyV9VF6-b_dps6q1JIf6HcBmO-_aBK5aRiZQv3IfROFxte5NMeR2z5Z1NQ_dL4Z81xGeoUyZv7Q1awPFrnC2Asy47iuGNe4HJgTD4X7POZFsDgFU_v_hnodLe5B3Kb4Ano_WNYaI7dvnCIVMlfIDhqNTUtwttBTz5STz-yAdYqmZ6cDjhw83PWPOwG5jZ_

[rookzie]

Very few if any airport rail lines are dedicated, and even Philly's SEPTA Airport Regional takes advantage of a few intermediate stops between the airport and Center City.  That said, airport lines are almost always integrated into a network of one or more other lines with one or more direct interconnections.  That helps to offset the cost of running an airport rail line, which still needs the frequency of convenience to attract collateral ridership.  Not saying 37 stops would work, but airport lines work best in conjunction with a more inclusive service route, even if that requires expansion down the time line.

Also, LRT would allow the line to possibly (but not necessarily) have a Gulch presence, for more centralized access to lines planable in the far- distant future (when we're all gone under), whether or not commuter rail with CSXT every materializes.   An airport line really would fare better when it could become integrated with future routes, and that just cannot happen with the RJCorman-MCS line.  And whether or LRT would have a Gulch presence, it needs to tie in with future lines somewhere not constrained by the current Riverfront stub-end.  There actually might remain a possibility for some LRT within the Gulch district, some kind and somehow, but that has become remote, as most of the past potential has become consumed by development.  Plus, no one seems to want a transit tunnel, as we have seen.

Edited March 14, 2019 by rookzie

[Dale]

4 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Same folks you think of already hate the plan. 

https://www.facebook.com/Stop-Crazy-Transit-Plan-Again-258116538402852/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARC5SOvnmFLlGqkyCxVaw7C2M5apZTY4XP1UV2oZmMR1EoUWSpmTVaGfpN2_pAgKwW5QS2QMfMP63JkF&hc_ref=ARS_IduvRXhiR4biL-dDn6oacQlnK-F5xXamMChgwBcA1fd_S755xeOjdDw4gqcVTSQ&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARCJgQ-9mBMcaNBxOTSFDCirFa1dAx17WRWnIDvo5F9MHw8f7pxo_cVnRgqz5v2gH_XoUPLR4T7K2ecWWqFzviUqaKXXNm9IEd7H-IQazoOO3NCVgkT-kMNB1nfk2F1tAyk-g-GoDNJ6kJhG8N2XUuXyV9VF6-b_dps6q1JIf6HcBmO-_aBK5aRiZQv3IfROFxte5NMeR2z5Z1NQ_dL4Z81xGeoUyZv7Q1awPFrnC2Asy47iuGNe4HJgTD4X7POZFsDgFU_v_hnodLe5B3Kb4Ano_WNYaI7dvnCIVMlfIDhqNTUtwttBTz5STz-yAdYqmZ6cDjhw83PWPOwG5jZ_

Has the mayor ventured a fund raising mechanism ?

[nashwatcher]

Agree. I don’t think a stop every other block is a good idea but 3-5 quick stops will allow us to get more bang for our buck. It’ll encourage Murfreesboro Pike to densify which will be helpful in many ways, including affordable housing and helping alleviate service workers who have a hard time getting into downtown

[Tennessine]

7 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Same folks you think of already hate the plan. 

I was waiting for this to happen. Of course, they're all rallying on BoomerBook.

[rookzie]

5 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Same folks you think of already hate the plan. 

https://www.facebook.com/Stop-Crazy-Transit-Plan-Again-258116538402852/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARC5SOvnmFLlGqkyCxVaw7C2M5apZTY4XP1UV2oZmMR1EoUWSpmTVaGfpN2_pAgKwW5QS2QMfMP63JkF&hc_ref=ARS_IduvRXhiR4biL-dDn6oacQlnK-F5xXamMChgwBcA1fd_S755xeOjdDw4gqcVTSQ&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARCJgQ-9mBMcaNBxOTSFDCirFa1dAx17WRWnIDvo5F9MHw8f7pxo_cVnRgqz5v2gH_XoUPLR4T7K2ecWWqFzviUqaKXXNm9IEd7H-IQazoOO3NCVgkT-kMNB1nfk2F1tAyk-g-GoDNJ6kJhG8N2XUuXyV9VF6-b_dps6q1JIf6HcBmO-_aBK5aRiZQv3IfROFxte5NMeR2z5Z1NQ_dL4Z81xGeoUyZv7Q1awPFrnC2Asy47iuGNe4HJgTD4X7POZFsDgFU_v_hnodLe5B3Kb4Ano_WNYaI7dvnCIVMlfIDhqNTUtwttBTz5STz-yAdYqmZ6cDjhw83PWPOwG5jZ_

That's not to be unexpected in the least.  Every rail-based line developed since early post-WW-II years in the nation, has encountered the "advocacy".  You're not going to have chicken or beef without the salmonella, unless you cook it properly.

[DMilner]

33 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Same folks you think of already hate the plan. 

https://www.facebook.com/Stop-Crazy-Transit-Plan-Again-258116538402852/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARC5SOvnmFLlGqkyCxVaw7C2M5apZTY4XP1UV2oZmMR1EoUWSpmTVaGfpN2_pAgKwW5QS2QMfMP63JkF&hc_ref=ARS_IduvRXhiR4biL-dDn6oacQlnK-F5xXamMChgwBcA1fd_S755xeOjdDw4gqcVTSQ&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARCJgQ-9mBMcaNBxOTSFDCirFa1dAx17WRWnIDvo5F9MHw8f7pxo_cVnRgqz5v2gH_XoUPLR4T7K2ecWWqFzviUqaKXXNm9IEd7H-IQazoOO3NCVgkT-kMNB1nfk2F1tAyk-g-GoDNJ6kJhG8N2XUuXyV9VF6-b_dps6q1JIf6HcBmO-_aBK5aRiZQv3IfROFxte5NMeR2z5Z1NQ_dL4Z81xGeoUyZv7Q1awPFrnC2Asy47iuGNe4HJgTD4X7POZFsDgFU_v_hnodLe5B3Kb4Ano_WNYaI7dvnCIVMlfIDhqNTUtwttBTz5STz-yAdYqmZ6cDjhw83PWPOwG5jZ_

They lost the Fairgrounds fight, so they had to do something else with their time. 

[Bos2Nash]

@volsfanwill Those are cool systems. I did research on those exact ones (and possibly this video). Too bad many of them are broken or dont function properly. Want to talk about bike parking... Check out the Bike garage in Utrecht, Netherlands

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Bos2Nash
Country Correction

[MLBrumby]

Is that dude wearing one of those women's march Pink P knit hats? 

[Mr_Bond]

9 hours ago, nashwatcher said:

Anyone think Amazon would sponsor?  Prime Line.

I see what you did there!

Just paint a white smile on this beauty!

[e-dub]

48 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Is that dude wearing one of those women's march Pink P knit hats? 

Yes, that's a Hat.

 

**Hah, completely took out the word, LOL. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by e-dub

[rookzie]

2 hours ago, Mr_Bond said:

I see what you did there!

[pic of arch-roof heavyweight coach]

Just paint a white smile on this beauty!

Is that your coach, Mr. Bond??!!
That's a gorgeous model U got ThaR!  Reminds me of a 72-foot (compartment; 80-ft overall) Southern Pacific "Sub" (suburban coach) used from the 1920s through the '60s, sometimes incorrectly referred to as "Harriman" coaches.  The blue-and-cream sort of reminds me of Reading Lines (Philadelphia and Reading).

Edited March 14, 2019 by rookzie

[jmtunafish]

10 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

@volsfanwill Those are cool systems. I did research on those exact ones (and possibly this video). Too bad many of them are broken or dont function properly. Want to talk about bike parking... Check out the Bike garage in Utrecht, Germnay

Having been brutally occupied by the Nazis during World War II, the good people of Utrecht would be horrified to find out their old Dutch city is now part of Germany.  Utrecht is and always has been part of the Netherlands.

[Mr_Bond]

17 hours ago, rookzie said:

Is that your coach, Mr. Bond??!!
That's a gorgeous model U got ThaR!  Reminds me of a 72-foot (compartment; 80-ft overall) Southern Pacific "Sub" (suburban coach) used from the 1920s through the '60s, sometimes incorrectly referred to as "Harriman" coaches.  The blue-and-cream sort of reminds me of Reading Lines (Philadelphia and Reading).

It's almost this shade of blue...

[Bos2Nash]

11 hours ago, jmtunafish said:

Having been brutally occupied by the Nazis during World War II, the good people of Utrecht would be horrified to find out their old Dutch city is now part of Germany.  Utrecht is and always has been part of the Netherlands.

my bad. idk how i managed to screw that up. corrected

[markhollin]

Here's one of the miniature roundabouts that are starting to pop up around town to slow down residential street traffic.  This is at Elmwood Ave. and 15th Ave. South in the 12 South neighborhood.

 

[titanhog]

^^Does it work?