The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

I rarely get on the Interstae anymore as I just take the backroads everywhere. If I am out during morning rush for an appointment I get to my location faster by going the backroads. 

I just dont get on the streets during the evening rush, but I understand some of you dont have that option or dont live close enough in to take the backroads. 

I have not been on 440 since they started work.

[bigeasy]

Wasn't it supposed to take like 3 years for the 440 project to be completed?  It seems like they have accomplished a whole lot of work in just a few months. I don't use 440 as much as I used to, but the expansion is something it needed.

It still blows my mind that a city like Nashville has multiple sections on the interstate where it goes down to just 2 lanes. I get that additional lanes aren't going to solve all our problems, but bottlenecks like this are a killer for traffic. I don't know the numbers of how many commute up I24N from Murfreesboro, but it is crazy that it goes down to 2 lanes.

Edited June 21, 2019 by bigeasy

[Jamie Hall]

2 hours ago, bigeasy said:

Wasn't it supposed to take like 3 years for the 440 project to be completed?  It seems like they have accomplished a whole lot of work in just a few months. I don't use 440 as much as I used to, but the expansion is something it needed.

It still blows my mind that a city like Nashville has multiple sections on the interstate where it goes down to just 2 lanes. I get that additional lanes aren't going to solve all our problems, but bottlenecks like this are a killer for traffic. I don't know the numbers of how many commute up I24N from Murfreesboro, but it is crazy that it goes down to 2 lanes.

At the rate they're moving, I'll be surprised if it takes 3 full years. Even the bridge expansions seem to be moving along quickly compared to other projects I've seen.

[MagicPotato]

2 hours ago, bigeasy said:

Wasn't it supposed to take like 3 years for the 440 project to be completed?  It seems like they have accomplished a whole lot of work in just a few months. I don't use 440 as much as I used to, but the expansion is something it needed.

It still blows my mind that a city like Nashville has multiple sections on the interstate where it goes down to just 2 lanes. I get that additional lanes aren't going to solve all our problems, but bottlenecks like this are a killer for traffic. I don't know the numbers of how many commute up I24N from Murfreesboro, but it is crazy that it goes down to 2 lanes.

It's definitely causing a bottle neck when the 2 lanes crisscrosses back and forth from I24 and I40  . If TDOT some how made an elevated highway/interstate that can bypass this mess then traffic might be some what better.  TDOT could expand the 2 lanes to 3 or 4, but from the looks of it, the cliffs are an obstacle .

[MLBrumby]

Wish they'd do the same with Ellington and put a new interchange with I-24 that doesn't take so much room. They could put 3-4 lanes in each direction all the way to Briley Pkwy. That cloverleaf that dead-ends to Main Street is terrible. 

[titanhog]

Briley terminating existing scooter program and starting over

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/06/21/nashville-scooters-mayor-david-briley-directs-city-lawyers-draft-plan-terminate-program/1524881001/

Mayor David Briley wants to remove scooters from Nashville streets and then implement a process to allow a limited number of providers "if they are able to meet our requirements for safety and accessibility."

Briley announced his position in a statement before noon Friday. He said he had met with five scooter companies since he announced he was considering a ban last month.

While he said he appreciated "the effort and quick response by these companies," he directed city lawyers to amend pending legislation before the Metro Council in order to "terminate the existing scooter pilot program, immediately remove all electric scooters from Nashville streets" and create a process for reconsidering scooters under stricter guidelines.

"The safety of all Nashville residents, workers and visitors has always been my primary concern since scooters hit the streets a year ago," Briley said. "I look forward to a resolution that meets that need."

 

[Bos2Nash]

So my guess is they have a certain amount of time to get the scooters off the street (30 days?) which would be right around election time. Wonder what and how this May impact the election

[Mr_Bond]

2 hours ago, titanhog said:

Briley terminating existing scooter program and starting over

My paraphrase of Briley: "My goal with banning scooters is to put more cars on our downtown streets immediately.  The gridlock will make a safer environment for pedestrians who can no longer use scooters.  If you are a regular scooter user and live in Davidson county, my plea to you is please, please don't vote against me in the upcoming election."   

Edited June 21, 2019 by Mr_Bond

[smeagolsfree]

Could be all the folks that use the scooters locally will now vote against him. That could be one impact. He may be in trouble now that the Police, Firefighters and Teachers unions have all endorsed JR Clemmons.

I really think there will be a runoff as no one will get enough votes.

[PruneTracy]

6 hours ago, bigeasy said:

Wasn't it supposed to take like 3 years for the 440 project to be completed?  It seems like they have accomplished a whole lot of work in just a few months. I don't use 440 as much as I used to, but the expansion is something it needed.

3 hours ago, Jamie Hall said:

At the rate they're moving, I'll be surprised if it takes 3 full years. Even the bridge expansions seem to be moving along quickly compared to other projects I've seen.

It's not three years, that was the maximum time allowed for bidding purposes. The actual contract with Kiewit is for 708 days, which puts final completion on July 24, 2020.

Aside from that, the design-builder is penalized $100,000 per calendar day if work is not complete by the above date, and the penalties increase to $400,000 per day if they are not done within 30 days after the date. Importantly, there is not an incentive payment for finishing early. So that leads to a couple of observations.

First, the "price" for a single day during the bidding process was $100,000, the same as the time penalty for the first 30 days. So it's likely that all of the initial bidders baked the 30-day time penalty ($3,000,000) into their bid with the intent of finishing after the completion date in order to reduce their bid by the same amount. (TDOT on previous projects has actually tried to set the penalty cost lower than the time cost which can lead to firms claiming a construction period of one day.) So it's possible Kiewit intends to finish in late August 2020 instead.

Second, since there is not an incentive to finish early, whether the job opens early is really dependent on the PR value for the contractor. They can throw resources at the job and finish early so they can use that fact in marketing for other work (not dependent on bids, such as private-sector work of which Kiewit does a fair amount). But if they are shuffling resources around the country what is more likely is that they will hit 440 hard until they are comfortable they can finish on time and then leave a skeleton crew to do punch-list-type tasks until the deadline comes. So you may see a lot of activity up to the final phase is nearing completion, then next to nothing for the rest of the time.

Edited June 21, 2019 by PruneTracy

[deletethisaccount]

1 hour ago, Mr_Bond said:

Briley: "My goal with banning scooters is to put more cars on our downtown streets immediately.  The gridlock will make a safer environment for pedestrians who can no longer use scooters.  If you are a regular scooter user and live in Davidson county, my plea to you is please, please don't vote against me in the upcoming election."   

Totally out of touch with the technological reality of the impact self driving cars, decentralized last mile options, and robotic delivery services will make on society over the coming decade.

[Mr_Bond]

21 minutes ago, nativenashville said:

Totally out of touch with the technological reality of the impact self driving cars, decentralized last mile options, and robotic delivery services will make on society over the coming decade.

Sounds a bit like HAL (love your profile pic).  BTW, JK.  I'm actually in complete agreement with you.

[titanhog]

Looks to me like Briley and staff did a little research and believes an announcement like this will gain him votes in August.  Feels like a mostly political move at this time.

[glamdring269]

Could also mean that he didn’t like how the conversation with the scooter companies went and has to play hardball to get more out of them. 

[nashvylle]

18 hours ago, nativenashville said:

Totally out of touch with the technological reality of the impact self driving cars, decentralized last mile options, and robotic delivery services will make on society over the coming decade.

I agree with you on self driving cars making a huge impact, but I do feel like I heard about this change “over the coming decade” about 10 years ago.

also, aren’t scooters part of the technological reality of transportation? 

Edited June 22, 2019 by nashvylle

[nashvylle]

Did any candidate say they would put transportation measures on the ballot if elected?

Edited June 22, 2019 by nashvylle

[deletethisaccount]

3 hours ago, nashvylle said:

I agree with you on self driving cars making a huge impact, but I do feel like I heard about this change “over the coming decade” about 10 years ago.

also, aren’t scooters part of the technological reality of transportation? 

A decade ago smartphones were a niche but fast growing market. Zero cars had any sort of advanced driver assist/autopilot abilities. Flexible robotics built on kinematics models were early stages of research, mobile compute power was a spec of dust compared to today's mass-produced SoCs.

The world is already undergoing major trials in widely deployed decentralized systems, be it Uber, cryptocurrencies, e-scooters, and very soon various last mile delivery robots flooding our streets. Most of these concepts, let alone the various technology stacks 10 years ago were science fiction.

Couple things to research:
- Boston Dynamics Spot Mini production ramp
- Tesla Rideshare network
- Bitcoin/crypto payments
- Augmented Reality Cloud / global Spatial Computing infrastructures
- Amazon Flex Drivers

Very easy to look at these various adjacent and overlapping technology verticals to start charting potential scale pathways for new business models that seem like science fiction today, yet in 10 years time will be a average part of our daily lives and economy.
 

[titanhog]

Self driving cars making a true impact is probably going to be longer than 10 years from now unless they have a major technology breakthrough on all-weather self-driving cars.  Have to imagine it will be a while before they crack the code on driving in horrible rain & ice & snow (unless they just decide not to drive in those weather conditions.)  

[KJHburg]

Many people think driverless trucks or technology like this platooning trucks will be in wide use before driverless cars are more widespread.

This is the Triangle Expressway NC 540 a toll road around Raleigh

https://www.wunc.org/post/volvo-tests-autonomous-driving-technology-triangle-expressway

https://www.ccjdigital.com/volvo-trucks-showcases-three-truck-platoon-on-north-carolina-highway/

Edited June 23, 2019 by KJHburg

[Mr_Bond]

11 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Did any candidate say they would put transportation measures on the ballot if elected?

There's a Tennessean article about it though I don't have access to it.  The short version: Cooper and Clemmons 'get it' but Swain is bit more old school.  Someone else may have more details.

[PaulChinetti]

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/05/23/scooters-bike-lanes-and-sidewalks-where-nashville-mayoral-candidates-stand-transportation/3747730002/

Here it is. 

[AsianintheNations]

23 hours ago, titanhog said:

Self driving cars making a true impact is probably going to be longer than 10 years from now unless they have a major technology breakthrough on all-weather self-driving cars.  Have to imagine it will be a while before they crack the code on driving in horrible rain & ice & snow (unless they just decide not to drive in those weather conditions.)  

Agreed - there's no way cars tested in Arizona are ready for the ordinary afternoon thunderstorm downpours that we have here.

In addition, any such self-driving car would have to be tested on 440 (or equivalent construction hell) before I would be willing to ride in one . My car has some "driver assist technologies" (lane-keeping assist that nudges the steering wheel and automatic braking if a stopped car or obstacle is sensed in front). I disabled both from actually taking control of the car, but it still triggers a visual warning when they would have activated. When I drive on 440, both of these technologies are repeatedly fooled by rerouted lanes/multiple sets of lane markings or abrupt transitions in surface appearance. It terrifies me that if I were in a self-driving car, some of these cases would have led to the car plowing into the concrete barrier as the lanes shifted, or an abrupt stop from 45 MPH leading to me getting rear-ended. I'm sure the self-driving car reseachers are years ahead of what was packaged with my car (which is practically new), but this problem still seems quite formidable.  There was an article in Wired two years ago on this topic (https://www.wired.com/2017/02/self-driving-cars-cant-even-construction-zones/)

[titanhog]

^^I agree with your assessment.  I mean, I would love to be able to just hop in a car and let it take me wherever I want to go and not have to worry at all...but I think it will take years of almost perfect accident records for me to get close to trusting the tech.  We all know that there's danger in driving vehicles...and there's always a chance you'll be in an accident.  But I think the public can accept human error WAY easier that it can accept computer error when it comes to living or dying.  All it takes is the public hearing of a driverless car running headfirst into a concrete wall and killing the rider because it wasn't able to correctly "compute" the road conditions for a large percentage to say "nope...I'll trust myself before I trust a computer."

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, AsianintheNations said:

Agreed - there's no way cars tested in Arizona are ready for the ordinary afternoon thunderstorm downpours that we have here.

In addition, any such self-driving car would have to be tested on 440 (or equivalent construction hell) before I would be willing to ride in one . My car has some "driver assist technologies" (lane-keeping assist that nudges the steering wheel and automatic braking if a stopped car or obstacle is sensed in front). I disabled both from actually taking control of the car, but it still triggers a visual warning when they would have activated. When I drive on 440, both of these technologies are repeatedly fooled by rerouted lanes/multiple sets of lane markings or abrupt transitions in surface appearance. It terrifies me that if I were in a self-driving car, some of these cases would have led to the car plowing into the concrete barrier as the lanes shifted, or an abrupt stop from 45 MPH leading to me getting rear-ended. I'm sure the self-driving car reseachers are years ahead of what was packaged with my car (which is practically new), but this problem still seems quite formidable.  There was an article in Wired two years ago on this topic (https://www.wired.com/2017/02/self-driving-cars-cant-even-construction-zones/)

Not to mention self driving cars dodging scooters, pedestrians, idiot drivers, etc. Just adds another element to the mix of uncertainty that is driving.

[LA_TN]

18 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Many people think driverless trucks or technology like this platooning trucks will be in wide use before driverless cars are more widespread.

This is the Triangle Expressway NC 540 a toll road around Raleigh

https://www.wunc.org/post/volvo-tests-autonomous-driving-technology-triangle-expressway

https://www.ccjdigital.com/volvo-trucks-showcases-three-truck-platoon-on-north-carolina-highway/

Absolutely. This removes issue #1 - no human on board. When there is an incident, no choice has to be made by the computer whether to protect the life of the occupant or others.

The trucking industry is typically a good 10+ years ahead of the auto industry, from what I have seen. Also, replacing OTR would eliminate fatigue accidents, help with driver shortages, reduce delivery times, and of course save $$$ by removing the cost of on board professional CDL driver(s)