The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

Metro Council essentially bought themselves some insurance in the electric scooter debate. Council members approved in the early hours of Wednesday, two options to move along for further consideration on the fate of scooters in Nashville.

Metro leaders will vote on legislation on July 16 that would allow scooters to stay on city streets in a limited way until a selection process to allow up to three companies to operate in the city if they meet certain requirements.  

If approved, the seven operators that are currently here, will have about a month to flex their commitment to making real changes to address ongoing safety concerns. 

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/07/03/nashville-likely-see-fewer-electric-scooters-more-rules/1623519001/?utm_source=tennessean-Daily Briefing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily_briefing&utm_term=hero

And NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2019/07/03/council-rejects-scooter-ban-aims-to-reduce-fleet.html?iana=hpmvp_nsh_news_headline
 

Bird launches safety push:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/07/03/bird-safety-push-scooter-controversy/1594869001/

[Nash_12South]

I'll admit to being a curmudgeon on this issue, but what a crock. The scooter companies all act like these are brand new problems never before encountered in any other of the myriad of cities they operate. This whole process is simply buying them time to tamp down local opposition and continue to operate. How will anyone verify how many scooters are actually removed from the roads? How is progress gauged? Will local police take on anymore of a roll in enforcement? I think reducing the number of scooters will make the problems appear less serious and they will declare victory with little concrete actually being done to address the issues.

I do think with time you can educate Nashville residents on how to operate and deal with scooters. Unfortunately the vast majority of users seem to be  tourists who will arrive ignorant of the rules and wouldn't follow them anyway.

Apologies for not being progressive.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Nash_12South

[12Mouth]

 

25 minutes ago, Nash_12South said:

I do think with time you can educate Nashville residents on how to operate and deal with scooters. Unfortunately the vast majority of users seem to be  tourists who will arrive ignorant of the rules and wouldn't follow them anyway.

My understanding is that the data show a wide variety of users, and that the vast majority are not tourists (it is a pretty even mix). I think there are probably ways of structuring the requirements to discourage or stop tourists from using them. Most of the problems occur with occasional or first time users and over 30% of injuries occur on a rider's first trip. One option is to ban individual rentals and require a minimum one month rental agreement (either where they get the same scooter for a month or get unlimited rides on dockless). Another possibility is to require a mandatory 30 minute safety class that is specific to Nashville laws. This could presumably be added to a user's account with each of the companies, but would take a few days. Make the class free, give them a helmet, free doughnuts, and a free month of rides. 

[Nash_12South]

15 minutes ago, 12Mouth said:

 

My understanding is that the data show a wide variety of users, and that the vast majority are not tourists (it is a pretty even mix). I think there are probably ways of structuring the requirements to discourage or stop tourists from using them. Most of the problems occur with occasional or first time users and over 30% of injuries occur on a rider's first trip. One option is to ban individual rentals and require a minimum one month rental agreement (either where they get the same scooter for a month or get unlimited rides on dockless). Another possibility is to require a mandatory 30 minute safety class that is specific to Nashville laws. This could presumably be added to a user's account with each of the companies, but would take a few days. Make the class free, give them a helmet, free doughnuts, and a free month of rides. 

If I was providing the data the only users would be 60 year old nuns. In working downtown and in my neighborhood, they are mostly tourists. I was just in DC and almost every rider there, was definitely not a tourist.

All your points are valid and likely true. I'm overly cynical on this, I totally admit.

Edited July 3, 2019 by Nash_12South

[37206dude]

1 hour ago, Nash_12South said:

I'll admit to being a curmudgeon on this issue, but what a crock. The scooter companies all act like these are brand new problems never before encountered in any other of the myriad of cities they operate. This whole process is simply buying them time to tamp down local opposition and continue to operate. How will anyone verify how many scooters are actually removed from the roads? How is progress gauged? Will local police take on anymore of a roll in enforcement? I think reducing the number of scooters will make the problems appear less serious and they will declare victory with little concrete actually being done to address the issues.

I do think with time you can educate Nashville residents on how to operate and deal with scooters. Unfortunately the vast majority of users seem to be  tourists who will arrive ignorant of the rules and wouldn't follow them anyway.

Apologies for not being progressive.

The problem is not education.  Education will have little safety benefit.  The safety problems with our streets existed long before scooters and will continue even if scooters are banned.  The way to make scooters safe is to put in protected bike lanes so the scooters are not competing with cars or pedestrians for space.  Reducing scooter numbers and slowing down scooters are not safety measures.  If Nashville was serious about street safety they would do something substantive to reduce the number of cars and to calm traffic to slow down cars. 

[donNdonelson2]

20 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

The best part about people that drive these are:

1. They don't live here, likely live in Montgomery or Rutherford
2. They're not used to driving in urban or dense environments with pedestrians
3. They dislike our city for our politics (except for the schwill beer and music made for toddlers)
4. If they're here, they're likely driving under the influence because they are too dumb to understand the ramifications
5. They are awful people

 

Looks like somebody’s work truck to me. You jumped to some pretty extreme conclusions from one photo of a truck!

[Jamie Hall]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nash_12South said:

I'll admit to being a curmudgeon on this issue, but what a crock.

I'll join you as a curmudgeon on this issue, but I place blame equally on Metro and the scooter companies: Metro acted thoroughly helpless to do anything about the issue month after month until scooters became a real danger, and the scooter companies acted as though dumping hundreds upon hundreds of scooters downtown would be a harmless way to make a buck.

Had Metro reacted swiftly and responsibly when the first batch of scooters arrived downtown, and had they initiated serious talks with the companies early-on, we might've had better rider precautions, more designated bike/scooter lanes, proper signage and markings, and designated drop-off/pick-up points by now.

[titanhog]

38 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

The best part about people that drive these are:

1. They don't live here, likely live in Montgomery or Rutherford
2. They're not used to driving in urban or dense environments with pedestrians
3. They dislike our city for our politics (except for the schwill beer and music made for toddlers)
4. If they're here, they're likely driving under the influence because they are too dumb to understand the ramifications
5. They are awful people

 

[12Mouth]

1 minute ago, 37206dude said:

The problem is not education.  Education will have little safety benefit.  The safety problems with our streets existed long before scooters and will continue even if scooters are banned.  The way to make scooters safe is to put in protected bike lanes so the scooters are not competing with cars or pedestrians for space.  Reducing scooter numbers and slowing down scooters are not safety measures.  If Nashville was serious about street safety they would do something substantive to reduce the number of cars and to calm traffic to slow down cars. 

So I think it is actually a combination of all three: education, engineering, and enforcement (and by this I not only mean scooters breaking the law, but perhaps more importantly cars). I hear your point - if you have fantastic safely engineered roads for all users, providing safe and protected travel to wherever they want to go, the vast majority should use it without needing additional education. You are also correct that we have massive safety problems with our roads. The issue is that we are not going to magically and immediately have connected safe infrastructure. Also, some of our existing infrastructure needs an educational component -  most people (cars and bikes and scooters) don't even know what a bike box is, why it exists, etc. 

I have run into numerous scooters riding the wrong way up a one-way protected bike lane. The vast majority of people who seem to be commuting follow the rules of the road. We have all seen the tourists downtown trying to do tricks/jump curbs in traffic/etc. It is a novelty experience. I will say that my suggestion about a mandatory class had much less do to with the actual education and much more to do with filtering out "serious" riders from novelty riders.

 

[grilled_cheese]

30 minutes ago, titanhog said:

There is no need to be childish.  What of my statement is incorrect?

48 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

Looks like somebody’s work truck to me. You jumped to some pretty extreme conclusions from one photo of a truck!

We're not talking about that truck we're talking about those trucks and the people who drive them and kill other people.

[titanhog]

10 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

There is no need to be childish.  What of my statement is incorrect?

 

No one is more childish or mean-spirited that you on this site.  You know exactly what you post is meant as flame-baiting and to incite.

[grilled_cheese]

Just now, titanhog said:

No one is more childish or mean-spirited that you on this site.  You know exactly what you post is meant as flame-baiting and to incite.

Just like the people that drive those trucks into our community.  They hate us, don't pay taxes and disturb the good people of Nashville.  We really should not let them enter the county tbh.

 

I will pray for you tonight.

[TnNative]

1 hour ago, grilled_cheese said:

The best part about people that drive these are:

1. They don't live here, likely live in Montgomery or Rutherford
2. They're not used to driving in urban or dense environments with pedestrians
3. They dislike our city for our politics (except for the schwill beer and music made for toddlers)
4. If they're here, they're likely driving under the influence because they are too dumb to understand the ramifications
5. They are awful people

 

I drive  a full size truck (not that big though lol). I have three children that would not fit very well into a smaller truck and these kids will only get bigger. I live in the urban core and have for over 15 years. I did not depart to the suburbs because I had kids. I am also renovating an older home and needed a truck for that purpose. Speaking of stereotypes, not everyone is in thier late 20's/early 30's with only a fur baby to take care of and drives a Honda Element . The awful person part is debatable, might want to ask my wife

Edited July 3, 2019 by TnNative
Clarification

[donNdonelson2]

Bolt scooter abandoned in the middle of the Cumberland River pedestrian bridge at Opryland. It will be lucky to not be struck by a bolt of lightning this evening. 

And scooters are not allowed on the greenways, of course! I saw the little dips#*t that rode it up onto the bridge-ne'er-do-well!  

[markhollin]

A new poll shows Nashvillians evenly split in hotly contested scooter debate:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/07/03/nashville-scooter-ban-residents-survey/1641296001/

[Nash_12South]

The survey is interesting. I would like to have seen a breakdown on where folks lived and worked in relation to how they voted. 

One of my best friends is very pro scooters,  but is rarely around them on a daily basis. Last night two scooters were left parked across the sidewalk right in front of the restaurant the riders must have gone into. We had to step over and around them to go into the same restaurant. It’s repeated (admittedly small) aggravations like this that formed my negativity towards them.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Nash_12South

[Dale]

People are why we can’t have nice things.

[37206dude]

My biggest frustration with the scooter debate is that so many people claim to be huge wheelchair advocates and don't want the sidewalks blocked.  That's great, but scooters are the least of the problems faced by wheelchairs in Nashville. They're a nuissance but are easy to move, I move them occasionally when I'm walking and it's no big deal.  I can't move utility poles, cars, broken sidewalks, etc.  If all of these folks are really such passionate ADA cheerleaders then after we ban scooters they should be screaming for more ADA sidewalks and ramps and for ADA detours at construction sites.  That would make a way bigger impact for wheelchairs than outlawing scooters.

[Ingram]

On 7/3/2019 at 10:18 AM, grilled_cheese said:

The best part about people that drive these are:

1. They don't live here, likely live in Montgomery or Rutherford
2. They're not used to driving in urban or dense environments with pedestrians
3. They dislike our city for our politics (except for the schwill beer and music made for toddlers)
4. If they're here, they're likely driving under the influence because they are too dumb to understand the ramifications
5. They are awful people

 

 

I'm guessing this forum is the one thing keeping you from running amok.

[grilled_cheese]

On 7/3/2019 at 8:49 PM, donNdonelson2 said:

Bolt scooter abandoned in the middle of the Cumberland River pedestrian bridge at Opryland. It will be lucky to not be struck by a bolt of lightning this evening. 

And scooters are not allowed on the greenways, of course! I saw the little dips#*t that rode it up onto the bridge-ne'er-do-well!  

Looks like someones only mode of transportation and they're trying to get to and from work as best they can.  You jumped to some pretty extreme conclusions from one photo of a scooter!

[donNdonelson2]

1 hour ago, grilled_cheese said:

Looks like someones only mode of transportation and they're trying to get to and from work as best they can.  You jumped to some pretty extreme conclusions from one photo of a scooter!

As much as I genuinely appreciate your observation, the fact remains that all forms of motorized transportation, including scooters, are banned on the greenways.

Edited July 5, 2019 by donNdonelson2

[PaulChinetti]

18 hours ago, donNdonelson2 said:

As much as I genuinely appreciate your observation, the fact remains that all forms of motorized transportation, including scooters, are banned on the greenways.

I can understand like dirt bikes and loud motorized vehicles, but electric bikes/scooters seem like a perfect thing to use on the greenway while you enjoy the quiet. 

[AronG]

I use an e-bike on the greenways (to carry my kids) all the time. It's super pleasant and I've never gotten any negative reactions from the fact that I'm getting a few hundred watts of help to get up and down the hills. I don't know the specific history of the greenway rules, but it seems obvious that restrictions around "motorized" traffic were written decades ago with internal combustion engines in mind, not tiny Class 1/2 electric motors that can't go over 20 mph and don't produce any more power than a healthy adult peddling. Half of the safe bikeways in Nashville are greenways, so it's an unfortunate side effect of the scooter wars that we're pretending like they're some kind of menace. The scooter companies have very good geo-fencing capabilities and seem to have added several "slow zones" that automatically lower the top speed, as well as several no parking zones. Maybe a constructive approach would be to use those tools on the greenways.

[PaulChinetti]

https://twitter.com/travisv/status/1149762853777203200/photo/1
 

https://twitter.com/travisv/status/1149763151497326592

Bird looks to be making money now on every ride. 

[AronG]

I believe it, they seem to cost more than an uber now. The new scooter model is much better, but geez... I had to hunt down a Jump for the ride home.