The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[BnaBreaker]

That being said, it is very frustrating to see other projects languish while items like this get pushed through. It's nothing more than a band aid to the current traffic woes. You can make all the new overpasses and onramps in the world that will help a couple of local traffic problems temporarily, however they don't actually make any headway towards solving the problem at hand. $1.5b could go a LONG way to giving us a viable commuter rail system, or set up an efficient and effective BRT system.

It is extremely frustrating to see Tennessee fall behind other states due to the backwards thinking of the stubborn yokels that largely populate the state senate. We can pass $1.5 billion in road construction/maintenance almost without a peep of dissent. But propose that a few million be devoted to any alternate form of transportation, not just rail, and these same people pick it apart line by line and demand justification due to, what I believe are fake and politics driven, "concerns" about wasteful spending. Pardon my French, but that's bullcrap.

EDIT: LOL...didn't realize this forum auto-censors.

Edited April 14, 2012 by BnaBreaker

[Guest]

'Yokels'? Really?

Until you can show a groundswell of support from the people of TN for mass transit/BRT/commuter rail maybe, just maybe, the Senate is following the will of the people...one man's yokel it seems is another's good steward of monies...

Pass a dedicated funding source like.... oh I don't know a gas tax?

And I am a supporter of moderate mass-transit policies but not boondoggles ....

[nashvylle]

nashville_bound-

building more and more roads and repairing more and more roads and not funding any sort of mass transit seems like the biggest boondoggle out there to me.

[BnaBreaker]

'Yokels'? Really?

Until you can show a groundswell of support from the people of TN for mass transit/BRT/commuter rail maybe, just maybe, the Senate is following the will of the people...one man's yokel it seems is another's good steward of monies...

Pass a dedicated funding source like.... oh I don't know a gas tax?

And I am a supporter of moderate mass-transit policies but not boondoggles ....

Yes, yokels. Really! And by "yokels", of course, I mean people with a very small-time way of thinking and a small town mentality. Seeing as how much of the Tennessee state senate is made up of people from small rural towns, I think it's appropriate terminology. I'm not saying by any means that having a conservative approach is always a bad thing, or that being from a small town is something to be ashamed of. But on the issue of state-wide transportation, we have to think big, and make progressive choices. I for one am getting tired of politicians who fantasize about some idealized notion of 'the good ole days' in 1940 always holding us back just because it's difficult for them to come to terms with change. And in an incredibly ironic twist, when it comes to the areas of transportation and the way our communities are built in particular, the so-called 'small town values' they claim to espouse come into direct conflict with the reality of small town life in that era.

My point is, that clearly, having a more diversified transportation system is the way of the future. Many other states who compete directly with us on everything have realized this truth, and until Tennessee finally does, it's going to get left in the dust by these states in the not so distant future. We can either get on board with the inevitable wave of the future, or get left in the dust by clinging desperately to our dependence on fossil fuels, which is proving more and more with every passing day to be slowly choking this state and this nation. I would love it if this state would blaze new trails and lead the pack in something for once, but in this case, I would settle for simply an on par performance. But we aren't even doing that.

Although it is proven time and time again that improving alternative transportation options is better for the environment, conserves energy, is attractive to businesses, builds stronger more connected communities, reduces commute times, is better for public health, saves money at the individual, local, state, and federal levels in the long run etc. etc. (I could go on), we continue to dump billions upon billions into the construction of new roads without any dissent or question. This in and of itself is not the real problem, because clearly, the maintenance and improvement of roads is, overall, a positive thing. The real problem is that those billions are not even slightly balanced out in any way shape or form by funding for other forms of transportation. Nobody is up in arms about the fact that this state funds road projects. They are up in arms over the fact that the ratio of funding for road projects every year to funding for every other mode of transportation every year in this state is essentially 1,500,000,000 to 0! I can't understand how you can say that to throw billions every single year at funding roads is being a "good steward of monies", while any funding for a mass transit project, no matter how small, is a potential "boondoggle" and should only be considered if it has a secondary source of funding to equal the expenditures. That just makes no logical sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, I don't know what you consider a "groundswell of support", but there are hundreds of thousands of people in this state that use public transportation, whether you personally do or not, and I'm sure hundreds of thousands more would use it if it was funded beyond the bare minimum. You can't have a mass transit system that goes almost completely unfunded by the state, and use that sub-par product as the standard for justifying the lack of funding for mass transit. That's an incredibly illogical circular argument if I've ever heard one. Furthermore, you can't say that just because the vast majority of people drive rather than use the unfunded, sub-par, nearly non-existent public transit in this state, that driving fifteen minutes just to get a gallon of milk is "what the people prefer". That's like giving people a choice of a perfectly cooked leg of lamb and a still frozen, uncooked steak that they have to drive into the next county to eat, and then saying that 'clearly, the people prefer lamb to steak.' It just doesn't make sense.

The bottom line is that relying solely on the slow death spiral that is building sprawling communities, connecting those communities with nothing but roads, repeating the process, and expanding the roads with the growth of the population, is a recipe for disaster. That philosophy has run it's course and taken us as far as it can, and the time has come to get smart about our growth and development. So why not start now, before we reach the point where our only choices are doing a complete 180 or let our state die? To me, the choice is clear.

Edited April 15, 2012 by BnaBreaker

[MLBrumby]

Don't know for sure, as I'm not in Nashville... but I have understood the lack of funding for mass transit, specifically rail, to be related to the unpopularity of taxes/low usage/suburban growth and flight of businesses out of Davidson... and Davidson is a Democrat urban county. So small town thinking may not be the term you are looking for. Compared to other cities that have recently installed rail and BRT, it started with leadership and planning. I know that Sacramento and Denver planned for years before they received funding from several government sources... and I have a close friend in the US House. He said that Jim Cooper is virtually a do-nothing "backbencher" as I've heard him put it. And my friend is a Democrat. Also, I understand that the Purcell administration (during which I lived a portion of those years in Nashville) was lackluster on this and many topics related to growth.

[timmay143]

Well the silver lining in all this is that at least Mayor Dean is a big supporter of transit alternatives. If we can get a few things going, hopefully people will see the benefits and support from all over will come in. Good news is the East MCS line is doing well and we have a plan for BRT in the East-West Connector. As gas prices continue to rise hopefully this will snowball into what we all hope for.

[timmay143]

Video on the East-West connector. I find it hilarious that they replace Qudoba (21st) and Regions Bank (31st) with multi-story, multi-use buildings!!

[nashvylle]

Thanks for the video- that's very cool.

I however don't think it's far fetched at all to assume that multi-story developments will develop within a few years. I'm do question the color of the buses.. are those final?

[nashvylle]

I think it would have been more effective if they had shown the cars in traffic with the buses in their dedicated lanes whizzing by.

[timmay143]

Thanks for the video- that's very cool.

I however don't think it's far fetched at all to assume that multi-story developments will develop within a few years. I'm do question the color of the buses.. are those final?

I doubt those are final. Just for demonstration. I'm sure they'll have some announcement about bus design for competition or something. Or I could be wrong and they just pick something. It seems perfect for a design competition to gain interest in the project when they get there.

I think it would have been more effective if they had shown the cars in traffic with the buses in their dedicated lanes whizzing by.

LOL, quite true!!

[bwithers1]

Yeah, while it is cool to show the trains at the platform, it does seem funny that the video shows cars flying by the trains, which is not the message that is going to sell this project. I'm also curious as to why they highlighted certain stops, such as 31st, and showed a new building to replace the Regions Bank but not the Walgreens, for example. Or why the "Convention Center" stop downtown is actually on Broadway. Why not have that be the "District" Stop or something like that that emphasizes all of the entertainment options rather than focusing specifically on the Convention Center that is two blocks away. Are that many convention goers really going to use the train anyway?

I'm also not sure why there is a "Riverfront" stop when it appears that the train would then have to back up for a couple of blocks before heading north to go to Five Points, which is also not highlighted. But I digress.

[BnaBreaker]

Oklahoma City's recently approved light rail plan: http://www.lightrail.../fa_lrt_okc.htm

I'm trying to stay optimistic about this BRT plan. The fancy promo video does look appealing. But it is a bit disheartening to know that due to the city's overall cheapness level it is now less progressive than Oklahoma City. Nashville is like the kid in high school that is cool with getting C's and D's because it means they still get to pass.

Edited April 24, 2012 by BnaBreaker

[timmay143]

I don't think having LRT vs BRT makes you more or less progressive necessarily.

They won't open up until 2020. The BRT E/W corridor has the potential to come on line in a few years.

[timmay143]

If only that money was used for a commuter rail and other mass transit options!!

http://www.tennessea...pnews{sodEmoji.|}text{sodEmoji.|}News

A blurb from the article:

Two lanes are being added along that heavily traveled 3.6-mile stretch of I-65 South in Franklin from Murfreesboro Road to Goose Creek Bypass, where work began in fall 2010. This $27.7 million project — which includes a bridge over the Harpeth River, three retaining walls and four noise walls — is expected to be complete by November, said Tennessee Department of Transportation spokeswoman Deanna Lambert.

Two more lanes also will be added in a later phase to the northbound lanes of this stretch at an estimated cost of $26 million.

A $35 million phase, starting in spring 2013, will widen 2.7 miles of I-65 from Goose Creek to State Route 840 from four to eight lanes. The Goose Creek Bypass interchange will be rebuilt, at a cost estimated at an additional $27.9 million.

Edited April 24, 2012 by timmay143

[timmay143]

Ah, some sense.

http://www.tennessea...=&utm_campaign=

For archival purposes:

I was putting gas in my car the other day when the person at the pump next to me said, only half joking, “I’m going to need a home equity line of credit to fill up my truck! I wonder if there will ever be a bus or some way to get to work in Nashville.”

Great question, I thought. As it turns out, conversations about public transportation have already begun. With the rising cost of fuel, the long-term outlook for the economic health of the county will depend in part on transportation options.

With 16,000-plus residents driving into Nashville every day, taking a bus or riding a train could save residents thousands of dollars each year.

Public transportation (also referred to as mass transportation) can be van, bus, or rail service. All three are being considered for Cheatham County. In fact, the Mid-Cumberland Human Resource Agency has van service for anyone that would like to use it, available right now. For $6 you can get picked up at your house, taken anywhere in the county, and then dropped off back at your home. You can also schedule a trip to and from Nashville with them. To find out more, call 792-7242 or look them up online at www.mchratransit.org.

There are several groups in Middle Tennessee that are working on the problem; The Transit Alliance, the Regional Transportation Agency, the Metropolitan Planning Organization and Cumberland Region Tomorrow just to name a few.

Funding for transportation is often the sticking point, and there is a group of people working on that. The Mayor’s Caucus, started two years ago by Nashville Mayor Karl Dean, meets monthly.

Our mayor, David McCullough, sits on the board, helping move the conversation forward. They have been discussing options to create dedicated funding to help pay for transportation. It will be a region wide plan.

Among the options being considered is passenger rail from Nashville to Clarksville, with a stop in Ashland City. The recent visioning work done on the waterfront property owned by the county and Ashland City included a passenger train depot.

Residential and commercial developments are being planned on the Music City Star route in Wilson County. Good planning on our part can ensure we make the most of our opportunities.

Mass transportation is expensive, and takes a long-term vision to make it happen. Fortunately, the Mayor’s Caucus is already working on the funding part. I recently received a governor’s appointment to the Regional Transportation Authority, hoping to make sure that we are part of the conversation going forward.

In the meantime, we are working on bus service to Nashville, hoping to keep folks from having to take out a home equity line of credit just to get to work.

James Fenton is Cheatham County’s economic and community development director.

[nashvylle]

We wouldn't even have to raise taxes, just use the money that was supposed to go towards widening the interestate to created a rail line...

[BnaBreaker]

We wouldn't even have to raise taxes, just use the money that was supposed to go towards widening the interstate to created a rail line...

Exactly. And building a rail line would actually be a proactive step towards reducing traffic congestion. It has been proven in many studies that in urban areas all widening a road actually does in encourage more people to use the road. It doesn't actually reduce traffic congestion. I mean, look at Atlanta. They have a crazy spider web of 8, 10, 12, even 14 lane expressways and they still have easily the worst traffic in the nation that I've seen.

[bwithers1]

There have been a couple of recent announcements about new bus services:

(1) Murfreesboro Pike BRT "LIte": I'm trying to find the link to the announcement about a "BRT Lite" bus route that is planned to run down Murfreesboro Pike to Hickory Hollow depending on how the city's budget looks for next year. I am guessing that it will be like the one on Gallatin Pike. Basically, to me, these are express busses. And having a regular and an express bus on Gallatin makes it pretty convenient.

(2) The RTA is having meetings about starting an inter-urban bus service between Clarksville and Nashville.

[ariesjow]

Oklahoma City's recently approved light rail plan: http://www.lightrail.../fa_lrt_okc.htm

I'm trying to stay optimistic about this BRT plan. The fancy promo video does look appealing. But it is a bit disheartening to know that due to the city's overall cheapness level it is now less progressive than Oklahoma City. Nashville is like the kid in high school that is cool with getting C's and D's because it means they still get to pass.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. It's very sad and disappointing to see us be so short-sighted with our mass transit initiatives. First, we send a cheapo commuter rail line to Lebanon of all places. Now, we're settling for a cheapo BRT line and this BRT "lite" nonsense instead of investing in more staid and comfortable transit alternatives like LRT or a street car. It would be nice to see the Nashville metro choose quality over simply half-assing something just once. The only benefit I see is price and a quick turnaround and the former is hardly much of one.

The East-West Corridor better have the best damn looking buses and stops I've seen on BRT system. No boring looking white buses like our current unappealing city buses or crummy stops that will fall apart in a few years. Give the buses some colors and interest. Make the stops unique and special. This will invite people to ride instead of viewing the system as an extension of the chariots of the poor like Nashvillians currently view the city bus system.

Edited April 28, 2012 by ariesjow

[timmay143]

I agree with you whole-heartedly. It's very sad and disappointing to see us be so short-sighted with our mass transit initiatives. First, we send a cheapo commuter rail line to Lebanon of all places. Now, we're settling for a cheapo BRT line and this BRT "lite" nonsense instead of investing in more stayed and comfortable transit alternatives like LRT or a street car. It would be nice to see the Nashville metro choose quality over simply half-assing something just once. The only benefit I see is price and a quick turnaround and the former is hardly much of one.

The East-West Corridor better have the best damn looking buses and stops I've seen on BRT system. No boring looking white buses like our current unappealing city buses or crummy stops that will fall apart in a few years. Give the buses some colors and interest. Make the stops unique and special. This will invite people to ride instead of viewing the system as an extension of the chariots of the poor like Nashvillian currently view the city bus system.

You have to remember where we live. People of late go against anything they see as excessive spending, funding, taxes, etc. Many are selfish and simply see things they don't directly "use" as wasteful.

I think, while not the most glamorous, RTA, MTA, and others have done mostly the right thing by starting small and as you put it "cheap" or better, less expensive. Using existing resources, such as a more available rail line and roads for BRT, to me makes better sense than building something brand new, especially during "the times" we are in as a world financially. The MCS, express bus routes, and transit in general is seeing a spike. Hopefully, this will lay the foundation for better things to come.

Edited April 26, 2012 by timmay143

[timmay143]

They just need to go ahead and do this. Good news that ridership is up all around. MTA/RTA we need to satisfy our LRT fiends on UP, !!

http://www.tennessea...=&utm_campaign=

Archive:

The Regional Transit Authority will hold a public meeting to discuss the new service from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. and 4-6 p.m. Tuesday at Music City Central, 400 Charlotte Ave. in Nashville.

The $325,000 line would feature two buses each morning and evening leaving from Clarksville’s central transit center.

It would be similar to express routes that run from Franklin, Gallatin, Murfreesboro, Springfield and Spring Hill.

“The main reason we looked into this is because it is by far the corridor that is most requested,” said RTA General Manager Lora Baulsir. “We have people calling our customer care center all the time.”

Baulsir said the only existing options for Clarksville commuters are car pools and RTA van pools. She said Clarksville commuters make up the bulk of RTA’s van pool rides in the Nashville area.

The line is largely paid for by a state grant to encourage mass transit and cut down on pollution and carbon emissions. Baulsir said the state will cover 80 percent of the costs, with Clarksville and Montgomery County picking up 10 percent each.

While demand for the Clarksville line is overwhelming, Baulsir said demand elsewhere is growing, too. “They’re all just building in ridership,” she said. “As we see the gas prices continue to rise, we’re concerned on some of our routes that we’re going to run out of seats.”

How ironic:

Spring Hill resident Matt Givens, 37, said he saves hundreds of dollars a month by not driving his full-size truck on his daily 61-mile round trip to Nashville, where he works as a traffic planner for the state Department of Transportation.

I thought Spring Hill would be just about as far as Clarksville. I guess it depends on what side of town you need to get to.

Givens used to live in Clarksville and, while he said he probably wouldn’t work in Nashville while living so far away, would be more willing to consider it if there were a bus line.

Baulsir said the RTA is mulling over doubling the number of buses used that travel to Murfreesboro and in Williamson County, from two buses to four on each route. She said officials also are looking to have the Sumner County route, which stops in both Gallatin and Hendersonville, split into two separate, nonstop routes.

She said that RTA ridership, including the Music City Star commuter rail, has increased 35 percent in the past year.

For more information about these mass transit services, visit

[Hey_Hey]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum. My wife and I are moving to Nashville in the coming weeks and are currently buying a home in the Music Row area. I've been trying to keep up with the BRT/LRT proposal for the East/West Corridor from afar.

I'm coming to a slightly different conclusion than some others in regard to the decision to go with BRT over LRT or streetcar. Sure, if fingers could be magically snapped and have one or the other in place, I think almost everyone would choose LRT over BRT. However, Nashville finds itself without the ability to snap its fingers and have something in place. In a fiscal climate where more and more of our tax dollars are being shunted to entitlement programs and debt management, the decision may have actually been BRT or nothing.

As long as the developers of the BRT corridor make this true BRT, then I think the metrics of the system will be almost exactly the same as they would be for LRT. If that is the case then it is hard to justify paying more than twice the cost to have an LRT instead of BRT. Nashville can get this built for $135 million and at least a couple years quicker than LRT. BRT this time around also gets us closer to the next BRT line. When it comes to the impact that transit systems have, coordinating lines will create a system that is greater than the sum of its parts. If Nashville could get this BRT system up and running in 5 years, then hopefully in another 5 years it could have a coordinating BRT line between Metrocenter, through downtown, and to the airport (or wherever it is best to be put).

One question I have is, why is there not a station between the 21st station and the convention center station? That seems like pretty good stretch that would be without a stop. Putting a stop around 16th street would be convenient for much of Music Row and the developments around Demonbreun.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Hey_Hey

[Guest]

Hey, Hey-Hey

Welcome to Nashville!

The plan, per Mayor Dean, is to have the East-West BRT up and running in 2015 so 3 years and not 5. I also agree with with your assessment of the sensibility of BRT over LRT.

When you get to town you should attend a monthly meeting we organize to converse about Nashville development.

[ariesjow]

Don't get me wrong, guys. I'm ecstatic that we will have something rather than nothing so to speak. I just think we're selling ourselves short by just assuming that LRT wouldn't work for us right now and that the NIMBYs would rule on this. Charlotte, Austin, Salt Lake City have theirs. Raliegh and OKC are in the planning stages. It is disappointing to see us cheap out on this one when I actually think we have great synergy going on right now in this metro and truly believe we will be one of the biggest success stories this decade.

Another benefit that I did consider to the BRT proposal right now is that we will probably have the opportunity to convert the BRT line into a more staid system like LRT in the future. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is what Indy and Cleveland are planning to do? This is assuming that the East-West Connector catches on here. I have my concerns about people rejecting it if the system feels cheap. As I said earlier, I really think this needs to be a world class BRT system to get Middle Tennesseans over negative perceptions of mass transit especially the bus system. I want the buses to practically look like trains.

Edited April 28, 2012 by ariesjow

[franktown]

Austin has an LRT line, but their next stages of expansion will be two BRT lines.

I've come around to BRT. LRT is so expensive per mile that BRT can get us a lot further faster.