The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[37206dude]

I'm skeptical of the safety benefit of speed limiting scooters.  If we have the technology to do that then we should use it to slow down cars.  That would have a much greater safety benefit.

[smeagolsfree]

Every car would have to have an onboard enabled GPS and computer. Then you would have privacy rights groups up in arms over that. The scooters are all rentals, so there are not concerns and they all have GPS and are much more simple to operate and control.

[AronG]

Not sure why privacy isn't a concern for renters, but if that's the only hangup I'd be on board with starting by applying those requirements to car & truck rentals. The vehicles weigh thousands of pounds, move much faster than scooters, and are often driven in areas that the operator isn't familiar with. They're much more likely to injure or kill someone; why not use technology to mitigate that? We already mandate anti-lock brakes and backup cameras...

[smeagolsfree]

Privacy for car owners.

[Mr_Bond]

On 8/4/2019 at 1:01 PM, PaulChinetti said:

If you like public transportation don’t ever Google about the street car companies and how the automobile makers bought them up and then ripped up the tracks/paved over and sold the rail cars off as scrap so more people would buy cars, you’ll get furious.

And then there's the history of jitneys where the street car monopolies regulated the operation of privately-owned vehicles that competed with them.  Can't have the free market harming our government-owned monopolies by charging lower fares!

Recently, we've seen a similar response to ride-sharing services competing with taxis.  Taxi companies pay licensing and operating fees to local municipalities and, therefore, have a seat at the table to create regulations for ride-sharing companies.

Government regulation usually marches under the banner of public safety, but the banner and the protesters are paid for by money from corporate-government monopolies.  Licensing and regulation always favor the established, connected, and powerful.

From Wikipedia's listing on share taxis in the U.S. (emphasis is mine):

"While jitneys became fairly common in many other countries, such as the Philippines, they first appeared in the US and Canada.  The first US jitneys ran in 1914 in Los Angeles, California.  By 1915, there were 62,000 nationwide. Local regulations, demanded by streetcar companies, killed the jitney in most places. By the end of 1916, only 6,000 jitneys remained.  Similarly, in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, in the 1920s, jitneys competed directly with the streetcar monopoly operating along the same routes as the streetcars, but jitneys were charging lower fares.  Operators were referred to as "jitney men."  They were so successful that the city government banned them at the request of the streetcar operators."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Share_taxi#United_States

[AronG]

It's kind of depressing to consider how straightforward it would be to wildly improve our transportation system if we incentivized modern "jitney" service (aka lyft line & uber pool) instead of the current death spiral (1 person per car -> traffic jams -> more roads and parking -> more traffic jams, repeat until all available space is filled by cars instead of people). Jitneys worked fine in 1915, and they're way better with the addition of the smartphone. They're currently available technology, carry people from door-to-door, and wouldn't require any big up-front government investment. We would, of course, need a little foresight and the political will to shift some key incentives and subsidies...

All you'd have to do is:

• Dedicate a rush hour lane on the interstates and the arterials for passenger vehicles (buses and rideshare) with an annual permit that makes single-passenger rides cost-prohibitive. (Maybe auction them every year to avoid taxi medallion-style cartels.)
• Instead of mandating/subsidizing downtown parking, charge a small annual fee for each space.

I think those two changes would be enough to gradually realign people's transportation incentives with what's best for overall quality of life. You can already flag a rideshare within minutes; with increased volume that would go down even further. Multi-passenger lanes could carry 10x more people, requiring way less infrastructure from metro per commuter. Professional drivers would be incentivized to drive per-mile costs down, and would electrify. Pollution goes down. Per capita pedestrian and car crash deaths would decline. Demand for parking craters. When downtown developers no longer have to perch their projects on top of 8-story car-storage towers (or laboriously excavate enormous bunkers in the bedrock), they're able to finance twice as many projects. We use reclaimed on-street parking to widen sidewalks and/or add bike/scooter lanes. You could stop paying for cars and insurance (average new car payment is north of $500/month) and have many thousands of extra dollars to spend. Etc, etc.

Totally possible, and yet so impossible...

[GregH]

I have been thinking that a bold but (maybe?) gradual approach would be to establish a clear hierarchy of uses for publicly-owned transport space, and not invest any resources in lower-ranked uses until those higher were sufficiently met in that space. So we could say for the UZO:

• First, a space must meet the needs of pedestrians, wheelchair users, etc.
• Then, if there is still street space remaining, it must be used to meet transit needs (on a major street this may mean a dedicated lane, perhaps just space for bus loading on a smaller street.)
• Then, if there is still street space remaining, it must be used to meet bike/scooter/etc needs.
• Then, if there is still street space remaining, it can be used to meet the needs of private automobile traffic.
• Then, if we have so much right of way at our disposal that we can't find any productive uses for it, it can be used for appropriately-priced street parking.

I'm sure it would be local-politics-messy in implementation but I think it would it would be a major improvement to make a clear statement of priorities with the cleanest and most-efficient uses of space at the top, and to bind ourselves to actually trying to live up to it instead of the current weak hand-waving about "Complete Streets" while still overwhelmingly devoting space and resources to private autos. 

[smeagolsfree]

Briley will not sign scooter bill.

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/mayor-briley-wont-sign-scooter-ordinance-calls-for-total-ban

[iGator]

Not sure how I feel about the total ban of scooters. I don't live in Nashville and I've only been in the area (Hendersonville) for a little over a year but I see what he's talking about regarding how dangerous they are. Also with them being left everywhere kinda looks bad and causes trip hazards for people trying to get around the city on foot. A bike/scooter lane would help and I think it should be more of a point a to point b type thing as opposed to using it and dropping it off where ever they feel like.

I didn't notice it much until recently. Several times driving through the city I got stuck behind a scooter driving extremely slow with no way to get around. I don't work in Nashville either currently so anytime I'm there it's to walk around or eat but it's still quite annoying to be trapped behind them. On the flip side, they do serve a purpose if utilized and maintained correctly. It's just that if you replace a car with a slow scooter, you get worse traffic, not better. 

 

[FromParkAveToTN]

I think there should be a weight maximum set on scooters. If you are over 150lbs, then you need to be walking anyway to lose weight. #Lazy@$$es

[Tennessine]

6 hours ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I think there should be a weight maximum set on scooters. If you are over 150lbs, then you need to be walking anyway to lose weight. #Lazy@$$es

Whew! I clocked in at 148 lbs last night.

[smeagolsfree]

That's why I still walk everywhere I go when downtown. Besides its a lot more fun and you see more when you walk. I clock in a lot more than 150#.

It is interesting now that all the sudden Briley is starting to get some stones. He should have been putting his foot down from day one so at least you knew where he stood, but instead it was like, what is he thinking this week.

[nashvillwill]

I’m beginning to think we are approaching this whole traffic reduction idea in the wrong way. Every time I sit in traffic on the interstate, I look around and notice an abundance of semi trucks. They are big, slow, and less maneuverable. They are a danger to us, and even more so, we are a danger to them. 

Perhaps, we create a dedicated, barrier controlled, center lane for semi-trucks only. Electrify that roadbed, so they have constant power for electrical drive systems. Charge per hour. Apply autonomous measure so they can self drive. You would free up a lot of the “normal” lanes of traffic, increase flow,  reduce fatalities and lawsuits. You would essentially create a road train. This could essentially do a 180 to freight operations making rail freight less necessary.  That could free up rail tracks that could be used for transit.

I believe it would be much easier to implement to commercial trucking than to the personal vehicle.  There is already a high level of standardization in trucking. There would also be great savings potential for freight companies as well as increased speed, less lawsuits, and possibly better logistic opportunities. There also wouldn’t be as much “freedom/rights” resistance.

Just a thought experiment. 

[markhollin]

^ ^ ^ Nice concept.  But one question:  How would the trucks enter and exit?  

[LA_TN]

10 hours ago, nashvillwill said:

I’m beginning to think we are approaching this whole traffic reduction idea in the wrong way. Every time I sit in traffic on the interstate, I look around and notice an abundance of semi trucks. They are big, slow, and less maneuverable. They are a danger to us, and even more so, we are a danger to them. 

Perhaps, we create a dedicated, barrier controlled, center lane for semi-trucks only. Electrify that roadbed, so they have constant power for electrical drive systems. Charge per hour. Apply autonomous measure so they can self drive. You would free up a lot of the “normal” lanes of traffic, increase flow,  reduce fatalities and lawsuits. You would essentially create a road train. This could essentially do a 180 to freight operations making rail freight less necessary.  That could free up rail tracks that could be used for transit.

I believe it would be much easier to implement to commercial trucking than to the personal vehicle.  There is already a high level of standardization in trucking. There would also be great savings potential for freight companies as well as increased speed, less lawsuits, and possibly better logistic opportunities. There also wouldn’t be as much “freedom/rights” resistance.

Just a thought experiment. 

The change to time last year is the main reason why the trucks are sitting in traffic with us during rush hours. Good intentions,.......but will hopefully save lives and reduce wrecks. But was a noticeable bad hit to traffic from day one

2) did you know we are going to build a ring road around Nashville that will allow all trucks to bypass downtown? It's called 840. Oh, but we killed that after only building half of it. Oh well 

[nashmoney]

Mayor bans nighttime use of e-scooters in Atlanta

Mayor bans scooter use from 9pm-4am after Atlanta had its 4th scooter death this past weekend.

There are a lot of scooter related injuries and emergency room visits that do not get reported by the media. I know people personally who have had injuries from falling off scooters. 

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/mayor-bans-nightime-use-of-e-scooters-in-atlanta/974150729

[titanhog]

21 minutes ago, nashmoney said:

Mayor bans nighttime use of e-scooters in Atlanta

Mayor bans scooter use from 9pm-4am after Atlanta had its 4th scooter death this past weekend.

There are a lot of scooter related injuries and emergency room visits that do not get reported by the media. I know people personally who have had injuries from falling off scooters. 

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/mayor-bans-nightime-use-of-e-scooters-in-atlanta/974150729

To me...the problem is obvious.  We are throwing thousands of electric scooters onto the market...and people are treating these like fun little toys you would ride around in a wipe-open parking lot on Christmas morning...when they're actually being ridden in high-traffic areas vs. 1-ton automobiles by people who may or may not have ever even ridden a scooter before.  It would be almost like handing the keys to your car to a 12-year old and telling them to drive to the grocery store and pick up a few things.

[Bark At The Sun]

3 hours ago, LA_TN said:

The change to time last year is the main reason why the trucks are sitting in traffic with us during rush hours. Good intentions,.......but will hopefully save lives and reduce wrecks. But was a noticeable bad hit to traffic from day one

2) did you know we are going to build a ring road around Nashville that will allow all trucks to bypass downtown? It's called 840. Oh, but we killed that after only building half of it. Oh well 

Lots of interchanges on the interstates around downtown are completely outdated, especially in areas where two interstates share the same corridor.    The I-24/40 interchange(s) between 440 and the Sillman Bridge  is a perfect example of this.   Closing an exit or two would help as well.  Fesslers  Lane is an important exit/entrance to I-40, but it is only functioning at 50%, and just about every truck that gets on the interstate to go west is immediately crossing over 2 lanes to get to I40 westbound lanes, during peak traffic hours.   Putting in some flyovers to keep I24 west bound lanes to the right, and I40 lanes to the left would eliminate most of the criss-crossing.    My commute every morning is great until i get to this stretch of road.

[smeagolsfree]

I think the tide is starting to shift against the scooter companies. The writing is on the wall and more cities are going to get tired of the headaches that come with them.

[bigeasy]

The 440/24 split southeast of town from 40 west needs to be modified as well. The people that merge last minute are a KILLER to the flow of traffic. They really should have a concrete divider starting on I40 (maybe around Spence Ln) to prevent people from merging last second. merging would be much easier on 40 since it is straight and drivers would have more visibility.

[Mr_Bond]

2 hours ago, Bark At The Sun said:

Lots of interchanges on the interstates around downtown are completely outdated, especially in areas where two interstates share the same corridor.    The I-24/40 interchange(s) between 440 and the Sillman Bridge  is a perfect example of this.   Closing an exit or two would help as well.  Fesslers  Lane is an important exit/entrance to I-40, but it is only functioning at 50%, and just about every truck that gets on the interstate to go west is immediately crossing over 2 lanes to get to I40 westbound lanes, during peak traffic hours.   Putting in some flyovers to keep I24 west bound lanes to the right, and I40 lanes to the left would eliminate most of the criss-crossing.    My commute every morning is great until i get to this stretch of road.

Reducing the effect of these interstate crossovers would go a loooooong way toward speeding up commute times.  I first became aware of this problem in Nashville when I rode through town in the back seat of the family sedan in 1975 on our drive from Mobile to Louisville.

[grilled_cheese]

18 hours ago, nashvillwill said:

I’m beginning to think we are approaching this whole traffic reduction idea in the wrong way. Every time I sit in traffic on the interstate, I look around and notice an abundance of semi trucks. They are big, slow, and less maneuverable. They are a danger to us, and even more so, we are a danger to them. 

Perhaps, we create a dedicated, barrier controlled, center lane for semi-trucks only. Electrify that roadbed, so they have constant power for electrical drive systems. Charge per hour. Apply autonomous measure so they can self drive. You would free up a lot of the “normal” lanes of traffic, increase flow,  reduce fatalities and lawsuits. You would essentially create a road train. This could essentially do a 180 to freight operations making rail freight less necessary.  That could free up rail tracks that could be used for transit.

I believe it would be much easier to implement to commercial trucking than to the personal vehicle.  There is already a high level of standardization in trucking. There would also be great savings potential for freight companies as well as increased speed, less lawsuits, and possibly better logistic opportunities. There also wouldn’t be as much “freedom/rights” resistance.

Just a thought experiment. 

The 18wheelers need to be addressed somehow.  If they're not stopping in Nashville then force them to use 840 or incentivize it, IDK.  I don't know if it's illegal or not but far too often do I see them abusing the exit only lanes only to come to a dead stop to merge in.

It doesn't help that so many roads in this town just dead end.  Parts of Nashville only have 2 or 3 ways out of them during rush hour.

[Tennessine]

3 hours ago, grilled_cheese said:

The 18wheelers need to be addressed somehow.  If they're not stopping in Nashville then force them to use 840 or incentivize it, IDK.  I don't know if it's illegal or not but far too often do I see them abusing the exit only lanes only to come to a dead stop to merge in.

It doesn't help that so many roads in this town just dead end.  Parts of Nashville only have 2 or 3 ways out of them during rush hour.

Agree with what you said about 840. We forked over $750 million for that project. I'd like to see more 40-thru traffic on it and not through the heart of downtown.

Being only 5 miles from my residence in western Williamson County, I use 840 frequently and can attest that it's seldom used by both truckers and commuters. It's a wasteland out there. I can't help but think that 840 was a massive waste of taxpayers' money.

And to think many politicians in the anti-transit camp wanted the $1B northern loop of 840 completed. Absurd to me how some of these people think...

[titanhog]

1 minute ago, nativetenn said:

Being only 5 miles from my residence in western Williamson County, I use 840 frequently and can attest that it's seldom used by both truckers and commuters. It's a wasteland out there. I can't help but think that 840 was a massive waste of taxpayers' money.

It's not a wasteland from 65 to 24.  It gets so much traffic at times you can easily get into a "parking lot" situation on it.  Not sure why more trucks don't use the loop off of 40 though.  

[Tennessine]

4 minutes ago, titanhog said:

It's not a wasteland from 65 to 24.  It gets so much traffic at times you can easily get into a "parking lot" situation on it.  Not sure why more trucks don't use the loop off of 40 though.  

Really? I haven't experienced any slowdowns on that part of 840 (or any other part for that matter). Maybe I haven't driven through it during rush hour. I have driven through the 65/840/Hwy 431 interchange regularly between 8am and 9am, and I've experienced some merging congestion there. But that has never come to a steady slowdown for me.