The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

26 minutes ago, CenterHill said:

   Many said they hadn't even seen the plan ahead of time and weren't in a position to help sell it to their constituents.    As a result, you had some council members for it and others taking issue with different parts of it.         

As Col. Potter used to say on M*A*S*H, "That's horse-hockey!"  I'm just a normal citizen and I saw all five of the proposals clearly laid out in print, diagrams, and maps in several meetings I attended. Of the 10,000 plus who took the time to come to those meetings, the one that ended up being presented to the council and then the public was the one that got something like 75% thumbs-up from those in attendance.  And it clearly notated all the various costs, etc. 

[downtownresident]

22 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Has he been doing the amount research, community input like the last plan or is he going to crib most of the current plan. Did he think there was too much research with the last plan? 

Maybe he can get buy-in from the outer portions of the county because of his focus on “neighborhoods” (still don’t know what that means), because if the red ring around downtown doesn’t vote for it it’s not gonna happen again. 

Cooper seems to be leaning toward utilizing busses to start with, and mentions switching to a grid based route system that connects neighborhoods vs the hub and spoke system that we currently have. He may not need a referendum to start out. 

[titanhog]

5 hours ago, markhollin said:

Well....those "clueless people" happened to do over 100 town halls (attended by over 10,000 people) and a tremendous amount of research in putting that proposal together that many folks happen to think was a pretty good plan, especially when dealing with long term issues of developing corridors, etc.   It could just as easily be said that there were tens of thousands of "clueless voters" who don't know a damn thing about public transportation (specifically how it interacts with state and federal funding, etc.)  who voted it down.  

However, that's all water under the bridge now.  Have to start with a clean slate and try to come up with something else.  But whomever are the mayors are over the next few decades are going to have a helluva time getting anything meaningful in place until the citizenry understands that solutions are going to cost money....and my guess is an overarching plan is going to be substantially MORE than the $5.7 proposed last year as inflation continues upward. 

 

"Clueless"...meaning they were clueless to what the citizens of Davidson County would accept.  Even if they did 1000 town halls, you weren't going to pass that transit plan.  You can call the citizens clueless...but maybe they're the ones who actually understood it was a bad plan...and there's a better way to go at this.

[e-dub]

1 hour ago, downtownresident said:

Cooper seems to be leaning toward utilizing busses to start with, and mentions switching to a grid based route system that connects neighborhoods vs the hub and spoke system that we currently have. He may not need a referendum to start out. 

Like what Houston did?

[satalac]

So when we getting that monorail?

[downtownresident]

31 minutes ago, e-dub said:

Like what Houston did?

Yup! His website specifically calls out Houston as an example. 

[grilled_cheese]

10 hours ago, titanhog said:

Yeah...of course you guys want to blame the Koch brothers for the failed transit initiative here...but deep inside, you know they are way down the list of the reasons why that initiative failed in Nashville.

The mayor’s affair with her employee...the lack of transparency on the fact it would have not eased traffic issues...the extreme overreach when it came to the scope of the project instead of taking a smaller bite...etc.

Koch brothers, Beaman, etc had less to do with the defeat than the inherent issues created by the mayor’s team of clueless people.

Wait......so Are you saying ...............................thAt the mayor's affaiR had ...................... more to do with...............the failed transit Plan...............than anything else?

[LA_TN]

32 minutes ago, grilled_cheese said:

Wait......so Are you saying ...............................thAt the mayor's affaiR had ...................... more to do with...............the failed transit Plan...............than anything else?

Sad, true, and funny. It was the age group >55 that really drove the vote. But in reality, the opposition was much better prepared and focused and ran a much more effective campaign with a much smaller budget

[titanhog]

39 minutes ago, LA_TN said:

Sad, true, and funny. It was the age group >55 that really drove the vote. But in reality, the opposition was much better prepared and focused and ran a much more effective campaign with a much smaller budget

Plus...it was easy to defeat when the pro-transit group first made it sound like it would ease traffic...and then had to backpedal and admit it would not ease traffic...which made them look foolish.  If you're going to sell a transit system, you HAVE to get the public to understand the benefits, even though traffic will not change.

[MLBrumby]

I don't believe this was posted already. There's been an avalanche of scooter related posts of late. So I don't recall seeing this from the end of July.

Where is this North Nashville transit hub going? A federal grant of $18 million has been requested by WeGo. How would this work in conjunction with Music City Central? They seem to be building these 'hubs' in a scattershot fashion. If there's ever a serious effort to build light rail, would these hubs be obsolete? Anyone familiar with their vision as to how these bus hubs would work with a possible light rail network? (Please see my vision below)  Anyone here think the biggest problem with any plan is due to MTA/WeGo lacking a cohesive strategic vision?

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/07/25/nashville-plans-new-transit-hub/

My vision: After driving in Nashville the past few times, I see the same congestion points at the same times of day (lunchtime is extremely bad in Midtown). So I believe light rail could find support from Metro voters if it focused on 5-6 rail lines that run out from a new hub at Lafayette and Division (ultimately extending out about 10 miles) starting with 3-5 miles for each line along or parallel to main thoroughfares. It seems they could run down 1) Charlotte, 2) Hayes, 3) Division, 4) Eighth, 5) Murfreesboro and 6) Gallatin/Main. A route on Charlotte to The Nations could converge with a short Hayes spur (from Amazon Gulch) at around 21st Ave and run past Vandy to Belmont and link up to a Division/16th Ave route. From there a Division route would go through the Gulch (crossing 12th) to a hub at Lafayette. In similar fashion, both the Gallatin and Eighth Ave lines could converge with the Murfreesboro line somewhere around Trevecca University (the M'boro line would ultimately extend to the airport). From the hub at Lafayette/Division buses/shuttles would run through dedicated routes (possibly BRT) through the CBD and Germantown to MetroCenter.

I think this would get initial buy-in from key voting groups as it would serve most of the key areas equitably. But as North River and Dickerson Rd. get more built up, then a line could go in that direction with a merge to the Gallatin Rd. line. Then possibly a line connecting the River North to the Charlotte line via Metro Center. 

Keys to this plan:

1. No hub in CBD with lines converging in the most congested part of town (see "No tunnel" below). Hub would go just south of SoBro.

2. Relatively modest initial roll-out with limited rail lines but connecting busy nodes like the universities and neighborhoods with residents more inclined to use lrt initially

3. No 'subway' tunnel (read by many as boondoggle)

4. WeGo already owns property at Lafayette and Division for central rail hub

5. Avoids the worst choke points around town (i.e. does not get near Beaman et.al.)

6. Construction could be done with less disruption to existing traffic: Hayes Street could be built with a rail bridge over I-40 to Grundy Street. The Gallatin to Murfreesboro link would also require a new bridge. Eighth to M'boro likewise, perhaps near Adventure Science Center and Ft. Negley. A future Dickerson/North River line would serve Nissan Stadium. 

7. Opens up some neglected areas for Transit Oriented Development (i.e. east of Music Row, Trevecca area of M'boro and provide better East-West flow south of downtown.

8. This plan enhances transit between key choke points without adding cars (East-West travel between Eighth and M'boro... and even to/from Gallatin). 

9. Use of buses downtown will allow changes in traffic patterns, as opposed to fixed rail lines.

Edited August 23, 2019 by MLBrumby

[PaulChinetti]

@MLBrumby you should draw that out on a map real quick, I'm having trouble visualizing it. Especially the bridges.

[MLBrumby]

I'll try and give it a shot tonight. Thanks for reading.  I can see it's confusing. 

[markhollin]

^ ^ ^ That's actually 1 more line than the plan that was defeated.  My guess is the cost would still be hovering around $6 billion.  

[titanhog]

Yeah...sadly, you’ll have to start out smaller to get the voters on board.

[ruraljuror]

25 minutes ago, titanhog said:

Yeah...sadly, you’ll have to start out smaller to get the voters on board.

Let's not forget that some of the opposition to the AMP was that it was too small.  And after that plan was scrapped - when presented with three potential transit master plan outlines - the voters chose the most ambitious proposal.

The referendum results provide good, recent data, but they're not the only data in terms of what the citizens of Nashville and Davidson Co. might support.  Also, 4.5% of registered voters could've swung the referendum the other way, which is certainly within the margin that can be affected through better messaging, a better voter push, and/or (of course) a better plan that is just a little more inspiring or draws a little more consensus.

Plus demographics keep changing and traffic keeps getting worse, so you never know when we'll reach the tipping point.

Edited August 23, 2019 by ruraljuror

[Tennessine]

Although the information posted recently ITT is provided via banter, I am thrilled to read posts that don't have anything to do with scooters.

 

Anyways, carry on.

[PaulChinetti]

AMP was too small, the most recent plan was too big. Regardless of plan, until you can convince the outer ring of Davidson County voters to vote for anything then it will fail. 

Considering every county mayor surrounding Davidson supported this, what is it going to take to convince those voters? Because I have zero idea. 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/03/interactive-map-see-how-nashville-tn-transit-vote-lost-election-results/573756002/

Joelton precinct 1178 against 145 for. I mean... how are you going to convince at least 40% of those people to change their votes?

[Dale]

Well, I’m sure the Mayor’s practicing her “inclusive values” didn’t help transit.

[PaulChinetti]

Personally I'd like to see a hub somewhere in SoBro, maybe even Pie Town. Then put a leg down Lafayette, it is the least build up and could end at the Airport, who it seems would be totally willing to throw in some money.

Then from there radiate out. 

North on 8th next. Then over to Gallatin somehow. Once those 3 are in, that covers a nice portion of your people that where interested the first time around. 

 

[CityHeart]

7 minutes ago, Dale said:

Well, I’m sure the Mayor’s practicing her “inclusive values” didn’t help transit.

What are you talking about ?

Edited August 23, 2019 by CityHeart

[PaulChinetti]

4 minutes ago, CityHeart said:

What are you talking about ?

Her affair that wouldn't have knocked her out of office if she was a man. 

 

I think her administration and the current one are so bad at messaging it was doomed as soon as soon as the anti-folks started going. I requested a yard sign for literally months and NEVER got one, ever, even after multiply requests. Then post election there was a story of a room full of yard signs that never went out because of ineptitude. 

[donNdonelson2]

Her using city funds to carry on her affair led to her leaving the office of mayor. She plead guilty to a crime!

https://www.apnews.com/64f32e5e5b8d4adaad946971d2af9d09

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

AMP was too small, the most recent plan was too big. Regardless of plan, until you can convince the outer ring of Davidson County voters to vote for anything then it will fail. 

Considering every county mayor surrounding Davidson supported this, what is it going to take to convince those voters? Because I have zero idea. 

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2018/05/03/interactive-map-see-how-nashville-tn-transit-vote-lost-election-results/573756002/

Joelton precinct 1178 against 145 for. I mean... how are you going to convince at least 40% of those people to change their votes?

Nobody lives in Joelton that really counts as far as masstransit goes.It is a huge area with very few voters and if we could kick it out of Metro I would be 100% in favor. As a matter of fact most everything north of Briley and west of I24 could be given to Cheatham or Robertson County and there would be no real tax dollar loss to the City. It would Probably save Metro money.

Sorry if you live up there but that part of the county needs to be in another county. It is the lowest populated part of the county I would guess. Bigfoot probobly is in the woods there not to mention that part of the county has had bear sightings. Very rural.

Dont waste your time changing those votes when the ones you need to change are in other parts of the county with more population.

[donNdonelson2]

But what would they charge us to take our trash in THEIR landfill?

[MidTenn1]

Cheatham County doesn't have a landfill. They have a transfer station where you drive across scales, pay for your load accordingly, drop in a dumpster and it gets hauled off somewhere. They charge too much.

My brother helped to get the old landfill shut down. It was poorly designed and managed by the county and was a danger to people's health in the area.