The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[ruraljuror]

On 11/2/2019 at 5:38 PM, Dale said:

Whenever I cite Columbus as a city to learn from I get, “But, Nashville unique challenges.” As far as I can tell, Nashville’s unique challenges include: (1) taxpayers who say “Nope!” (2) and, as commonly acknowledged here, a bad bus system. 

Columbus has managed to build an award-winning bus system with comparatively little outlay.  Seems like it’s worth a look.

I agree that Columbus' award-winning bus system is worth a look, too - but the one guy on this forum who seems to know both Nashville and Columbus best responded like 6 posts above to say that (3) Columbus' public transit is still "really, really poor" and (4/5) the terrains and the grid systems of Nashville and Columbu differ significantly and probably require different transit system solutions as a result.

That said, it's always worth taking a look, so I'm with you there - but I'll defer to the guy who seems to know the areas in question best until I have better info to work from since it's been over a decade since I personally was last in Columbus.  When was the last time you were in Nashville or Columbus, Dale - or is your opinion here based mostly on the awards/other things you've read? 

 

On 11/1/2019 at 2:57 PM, dmillsphoto said:

COLUMBUS, OHIO. 

 

Seriously, though. We have a couple hundred thousand more residents more than Nashville and a third the traffic problems. But, there's a huge difference - we have a fairly flat and logic grid system that expands north to south, I-270 is a full ring with intersections at 71, 70, and 670 running across, and 315 to the west side of town (basically, our 440). We also have smart-lanes on 670 now, which is an E-W stretch about 8 miles long that transepts the city. Public transit, however, is still really, really poor, though.

 

[archilove]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:15 PM, PHofKS said:

I could care less what Columbus Ohio's growth rate is because it has absolutely nothing to do with Nashville's transportation issues. Nashville is Nashville and has unique growth management issues that very few if any cities have.  It has a ridiculously large tourist population that clogs city streets with scooters, pedal taverns, tour busses, confused out of town automobile drivers, and people with the notion that they are entitled to park or load cars anywhere they please. Nashville might pick up a few ideas from various cities, but Nashville has to come up with it's own unique solutions.

P.S And....this is the all new city Nashville is adding to it's current skyline in the next few years. This is why it needs rapid transit and now. (Rising and serious proposals with a few omissions.)

The tourist traffic is a very large part of our congestion problem. There were 14.6 million of them last year and the numbers have been growing every year. Next time you are stopped in traffic look at the license tags around you and notice how many are out-of-state.

[markhollin]

Developers at Lilium in Germany have prototypes built for what could be the first flying taxis. They hope to hav a fleet in NYC within 5 years that could offer a 10 minute trip from Manhattan to JFK airport in 10 minutes for $70.  It claims to be fast, efficient, and low noise.  There are at least 20 other companies competing to be first.  The 4 wings on the Lilium jet rotate so it can take off and land like a helicopter.  It features a 36 foot wingspan, and can travel 190 mph, with 4 passengers and a pilot. The hope is to build them at several hundred thousand dollars apiece.

More behind NBJ paywall here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2019/11/06/inside-the-high-stakes-race-to-build-the-world-s.html?iana=hpmvp_nsh_news_headline

 

[MLBrumby]

Looks more like a high tech farm implement. I'm predicting problems for this company in getting past a perception of safety. Plus, where would something so wide land? 

[CenterHill]

12 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Looks more like a high tech farm implement. I'm predicting problems for this company in getting past a perception of safety. Plus, where would something so wide land? 

Lower Broad 

[AronG]

If Cooper wants to be rational, our next steps shouldn't be hard to figure out. (1) Dedicated bus lanes on the 5 major arterials (can do dedicated queue hops just outside of downtown where we don't need a full lane). (2) Commit to run buses every 10 or 15 minutes. (3) Upzone the areas around the bus stops and use the property tax money to make much better bus stops.

Virtually everyone in transportation agrees that this is how you build transit ridership, and it doesn't cost that much to implement. The problem is growing a pair to stand up to the status quo backlash on car lanes. Do we have enough resolve now to get the Amp 2 over the hump? Of course, there's also the state legislature, but it seems like the Governor may be primed to help with that.

[12Mouth]

1 minute ago, AronG said:

If Cooper wants to be rational, our next steps shouldn't be hard to figure out. (1) Dedicated bus lanes on the 5 major arterials (can do dedicated queue hops just outside of downtown where we don't need a full lane). (2) Commit to run buses every 10 or 15 minutes. (3) Upzone the areas around the bus stops and use the property tax money to make much better bus stops.

Virtually everyone in transportation agrees that this is how you build transit ridership, and it doesn't cost that much to implement. The problem is growing a pair to stand up to the status quo backlash on car lanes. Do we have enough resolve now to get the Amp 2 over the hump? Of course, there's also the state legislature, but it seems like the Governor may be primed to help with that.

I think you are absolutely correct, and would add that we would also need a few solid crosstown options. The third biggest problem we will run into (after backlash for removing either a couple of lanes of traffic or street parking and the state re: dedicated lanes) is enforcement. I think the best way to handle this is with cameras (both fixed cameras at intersections and the bus-mounted cameras that they are using in NYC).

[smeagolsfree]

   

31 minutes ago, AronG said:

If Cooper wants to be rational, our next steps shouldn't be hard to figure out. (1) Dedicated bus lanes on the 5 major arterials (can do dedicated queue hops just outside of downtown where we don't need a full lane). (2) Commit to run buses every 10 or 15 minutes. (3) Upzone the areas around the bus stops and use the property tax money to make much better bus stops.

Virtually everyone in transportation agrees that this is how you build transit ridership, and it doesn't cost that much to implement. The problem is growing a pair to stand up to the status quo backlash on car lanes. Do we have enough resolve now to get the Amp 2 over the hump? Of course, there's also the state legislature, but it seems like the Governor may be primed to help with that.

Only problem is the State controls the right of ways and those roads and not Metro. The legislature passed a law saying Metro cant do that several years ago when Dean wanted to do that with the Amp. The state has total control over these roads and nothing can be done without their say.

Dickerson Road aka US Rt. 41 continues on as Nolensville

Gallatin Rd aka US  Rt. 31 continues on as 8th Ave S an Franklin Rd.

Ellington Pkwy aka US Rt. 31 E

West End Broadway aka US Rt. 70 continues on as Hermitage Ave and Lebanon Rd.

[AronG]

Just now, smeagolsfree said:

Only problem is the State controls the right of ways and those roads and not Metro. The legislature passed a law saying Metro cant do that several years ago when Dean wanted to do that with the Amp. The state has total control over these roads and nothing can be done without their say.

Dickerson Road aka US Rt. 41 continues on as Nolensville

Gallatin Rd aka US  Rt. 31 continues on as 8th Ave S an Franklin Rd.

Ellington Pkwy aka US Rt. 31 E

West End Broadway aka US Rt. 70 continues on as Hermitage Ave and Lebanon Rd.

Right, but I'm saying that Lee is interested in making something happen; this is substantive and wouldn't cost much; and (most importantly) it can now be framed as the conservative alternative to the liberal light rail plan. If he gets behind it, TDOT will have no problem with it at all.

[nashvylle]

Bus pooling during rush hour.

Buy fancy buses. Take a poll to find out the neighborhoods all the Bridgestone, Amazon, Alliance Bernstein, SmileDirect, etc. workers commute from, and have buses that take them directly to those neighborhoods (no stops in between) from 5pm - 7pm.

For example, if 40% of those surveyed commute from Bellevue, metro should provide enough buses to take those downtown workers directly to a designate drop off area in Bellevue.  

No one would take a metro bus from downtown, stop 40 times, and finally get to Bellevue in two or 3 hours. 

 

 

[GregH]

http://www.nashvillemta.org/maps/route24.pdf 

[nashvylle]

41 minutes ago, GregH said:

http://www.nashvillemta.org/maps/route24.pdf 

thanks. Does MTA provide this type of service to downtown for all neighborhoods (Green Hills, Vandy, East Nashville)? 

 

[rookzie]

On 11/7/2019 at 3:33 PM, GregH said:

http://www.nashvillemta.org/maps/route24.pdf 

 

On 11/7/2019 at 4:16 PM, nashvylle said:

thanks. Does MTA provide this type of service to downtown for all neighborhoods (Green Hills, Vandy, East Nashville)? 

 

Basically the Route 24 bus is none other than the pre-existing Nº 24X, which as with the 38X (Antioch) has been an express route since inception for some 10 years or more.  These are two of the very few actual MTA city bus routes that have operated as "Limiteds" between downtown and specific outlying areas within Metro Nashville / Davidson Cnty.  A former boss of mine and several co-workers rode Nº 24X for many years, and it usually was covered with a New Flyer Xcelsior articulated bus (60-footer).  Routes 24X and 38X are more appropriately termed "Rapid Bus", which isn't the same as Bus Rapid Transit (BRT).   It effectively and truly is "rapid", "limited" or "quick" service ─  one or two steps above the standard service but far from being BRT.

As far as "regional" transport is concerned, the RTA (as opposed to the once separate MTA) operates and has been operating numbered "X"-series coaches as express bus service inbound from and outbound to outlying points outside Davidson Cnty and terminate in downtown Nashville ─ e.g. 86X (Smyrna/Lavergne); 96X (Murfreesboro), and 84X serving the more limited MTSU area.  Over the last 11 years additional "high-numbered X-series" coach commuter service has been incrementally expanded to serve express to other areas outside the county ─ Dickson, Springfield, Clarksville, Franklin, Gallatin, Spring Hill, and Hendersonville.  The RTA routes are all "X" routes in the WeGo list of numbered routes, although they no longer seem to be listed officially with the suffix "X".  All RTA routes are funded jointly by the jurisdictions in which they are hosted.

The problem with the RTA coach service is that none of the routes provides reverse commuting during service periods, and each is operated only as a narrow span of schedule times during the morning inbound and the late afternoon outbound runs.  The local (MTA-only) routes with the "X" designation always have been bi-directional in service concurrent for both inbound and outbound during the morning and afternoon service periods.  The RTA long-distance type coaches (MCI- or Prevost-built) are being rebranded under the WeGo moniker to unify the regional- with the local system, all managed under the MTA for some 10 years or so (following the recession of 2008).

So nothing really new there that hasn't already been in effect.  Plus, all these routes only have served those specific areas of riders who primarily work in the CBD.  Possibly additional capacity demand as well as expanded scheduling will need to be considered with the existing "X" routes.  Also you spoke of the major players for downtown, which is a good thing, but WeGo does very little to serve the work centers for much if not most of the working- and service-classes, a high percentage of whom work or would work in employment areas well away from downtown.  That's what places like Phoenix and Houston are working on right now.  Houston's METRONext Moving Forward Plan is supported by a recent referendum for route enhancements, bus-service plus accessibility and usability improvements for the disabled and seniors,  additional rapid bus service, and improved or additional Park-and-Ride transit centers, much like what WeGo Transit's "X" service depends on.

Again though, even modest measures will need some kind of sustained funding source, as they cannot just be implemented and be self-supporting by fares alone.

Edited November 10, 2019 by rookzie

[markhollin]

I-440 update.  Center lanes complete.  

Looking east from Belmont Ave. overpass:

Looking NW from Belmont Ave. overpass:

[nashvylle]

https://twitter.com/Amtrak/status/1193271805303238656?s=20

Some day it will happen. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by nashvylle

[KJHburg]

Had a great time in Nashville at least the sun was out despite it being so cold and icy.  The city is booming and blossoming into a major American city.  But one area  you have to get an grip on is transportation.  My niece will end up staying in Nashville so I plan on visiting regularly so I want yall to improve.  These are my suggestions and most of you would agree and need to press  your state and city for solutions.   

Part of the problem as you all know is that 3 interstates converge downtown and all the routes are overlapped for a few miles.  Those splits pictured below are outdated and cause force people to change lanes to stay on the right highway.  These kind of interchanges are not used in NC and TDOT really needs to rebuild these interchanges to increase the flow.  One thing that would help this out is a north south bypass. Complete 840 north of the city.  So much truck traffic from the midwest heading southeast to Atlanta or FL or vice versa has to come right through downtown Nashville.  That is insane and contributes to  your back ups that are frequent during the day.  Someone mentioned it would be really expensive due to rock and bridges needed but then make it a toll road.    Look at I-26 near Johnson City TN it is through  solid rock mountains.  Something has to be done about this.  This problem will only worsen as your downtown fills up with more and more jobs.  It is crazy to think everyone will live downtown or very close in as it is very expensive to do so.    I-840 is  great bypass if you are heading from east to west or vice versa and did notice a good amount of trucks on it but like I said you need the north south bypass too. 

Mass transit:  start with something.  Your big bang plan was way too ambitious. Start with one line and grow it and what was found in Charlotte as our almost 20 mile rail line grew more and more people supported it as they saw the benefits of it.  Will it solve your traffic problems?  Absolutely not.  But it gives people options and would do so for the millions upon millions of tourists you host every year.   Imagine riding downtown for big events, concerts, a night out on Broadway (okay with your out of town guests) Even Bus Rapid transit would work look at Houston they have the largest such system in the country.  Fast growing Raleigh chose that option.  https://www.raleighnc.gov/business/content/PlanDev/Articles/TransPlan/BRT.html

I hate tolls but in fast growing places they are a fact of life.  NC has been very aggressively expanding tolled express lanes.  Free for  HOV 3 and buses but others pay to ride.   We have them coming down I-77 for 23 miles or so with variable rate pricing.   Dittos for Atlanta on 75, 85, soon GA 400 and I-285 north.  NC is adding them on our beltway 485 south first.https://www.i77express.com/     https://www.ncdot.gov/projects/i-485-express-lanes/Pages/default.aspx    I noticed you had HOV 2 lanes on 40, 65 and 24.  I noticed what I thought were a lot of violators of this during the rush hour time periods (unless there are a lot of very short people  or babies carpooling)  

Ramp metering would help with your interstates allowing cars to merge on one at time instead of lines of cars entering.  Rebuild some of your interchanges I saw a lot of ramp backups back onto the freeway.   Looks like that is happening in Antioch area of I-24.  https://www.ncdot.gov/initiatives-policies/Transportation/safety-mobility/on-ramp-signals/Pages/default.aspx

all the photos below are non rush hours and this will not surprise any of you.   Last 2 photos I-840  they cut through solid rock down there.  

the photo someone posted of the skyline from the 1970s or 1980s had the same highway configuration as it does today.  

Nashville is becoming a  major  American city but you need to get your state and city to plan for the growth of transportation options or it will choke off your growth in the future.  

PS don't worry I will be back just hope one day I can park in the suburbs and ride a train or rapid bus transit downtown. 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by KJHburg

[BnaBreaker]

Thanks for the input @KJHburg, glad you enjoyed your stay!  Those are all solid points which as you probably expected have been discussed ad nauseum here.  I agree with you on everything except for completing I-840 North.  No doubt, truck traffic in the middle of town is an issue as it definitely contributes to jams, but surely there are solutions that don't involve spending billions building a massive new expressway that would slice through some beautiful wilderness and promote more sprawl just so a few trucks are taken off downtown expressways.  Nashville actually does have a north-south bypass already in Briley Parkway... perhaps truck traffic should be funneled onto it?

Edited November 15, 2019 by BnaBreaker

[MLBrumby]

I live in Chattanooga and it frustrates me to no end that I-24 to Nashville has not changed in 30 years. I know that NC is similar but TN is the worst when it comes to the back-woods politicians who insist on building a 4-lane expressway to nowhere whenever the subject of expanding highways in congested/urban areas comes up. Compounding the problem is that TDOT is a 'pay as you go' (no bonds) agency. IMHO that hampers their long-term planning. I think TDOT overall is an utter embarrassment to our state. Their construction projects last FOREVERRRRRRRR!

44 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

the photo someone posted of the skyline from the 1970s or 1980s had the same highway configuration as it does today.  

Yeah... that was me. Utterly absurd! 

[MLBrumby]

And our local paper had an article last weekend about TDOT saying it will NOW take 20 years (instead of 10) for the IMPROVE act that was passed 2 years ago. 

[KJHburg]

4 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

I live in Chattanooga and it frustrates me to no end that I-24 to Nashville has not changed in 30 years. I know that NC is similar but TN is the worst when it comes to the back-woods politicians who insist on building a 4-lane expressway to nowhere whenever the subject of expanding highways in congested/urban areas comes up. Compounding the problem is that TDOT is a 'pay as you go' (no bonds) agency. IMHO that hampers their long-term planning. I think TDOT overall is an utter embarrassment to our state. Their construction projects last FOREVERRRRRRRR!

Yeah... that was me. Utterly absurd! 

NC has some of that too (building freeways to nowhere) however NC changed their funding mechanism a few years back and the big cities are getting more and more projects.  Usually state capitals have better road systems than other cities in the state but not the case in Tennessee it seems.    Wow my other suggestion would be  statewide bond for transportation NC uses that to leverage money.  Did not know you could not do that in TN.   Something needs to change or you will kill off the golden goose. 

As for Briley Parkway not all of it is freeway from what I remember.  Maybe if you cant or wont complete 840 then designate one of the interstates coming through downtown as the truck route and improve it with some truck only lanes (Georgia is doing that south of Atlanta)   Tennessee needs to think outside of the box and look at what is going on in Charlotte, Atlanta, Raleigh, Dallas etc. 

 

[downtownresident]

51 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

Thanks for the input @KJHburg, glad you enjoyed your stay!  Those are all solid points which as you probably expected have been discussed ad nauseum here.  I agree with you on everything except for completing I-840 North.  No doubt, truck traffic in the middle of town is an issue as it definitely contributes to jams, but surely there are solutions that don't involve spending billions building a massive new expressway that would slice through some beautiful wilderness and promote more sprawl just so a few trucks are taken off downtown expressways.  Nashville actually does have a north-south bypass already in Briley Parkway... perhaps truck traffic should be funneled onto it?

Briley isn’t a complete bypass for either 65 or 24(the freeway portion ends after 40)so it doesn’t work well as a N/S bypass either. 

[BnaBreaker]

51 minutes ago, downtownresident said:

Briley isn’t a complete bypass for either 65 or 24(the freeway portion ends after 40)so it doesn’t work well as a N/S bypass either. 

Oh yeah, good point!  

[markhollin]

Lyft is removing its fleet of scooters from Nashville on Nov. 22nd.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2019/11/14/lyft-removing-fleet-scooters-nashville/4197742002/

[rolly]

Too bad the I-65 bypass can't be finished via 840.   The path along SR109 around Gallatin from Portland to Lebanon would be a great route. That way not just I-40, but I-65 would each have a full bypass around Nashville. 

 

[downtownresident]

30 minutes ago, rolly said:

Too bad the I-65 bypass can't be finished via 840.   The path along SR109 around Gallatin from Portland to Lebanon would be a great route. That way not just I-40, but I-65 would each have a full bypass around Nashville. 

 

I’m thinking this why the state is upgrading 109 as part of the Improve Act. They are widening it to 4 lanes, and building a bypass around Portland.