The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[PillowTalk4]

I know a few people that work at the Amtrak headquarters in Washington, DC.  Several years ago I asked if Amtrak had considered re-establishing service in Nashville.  The answer I received was yes, Nashville comes up often as a city for Amtrak service.   A close friend used to work as a senior manager in finance for Amtrak and he told me that financial models for restoring service to Nashville have been examined several times since around 2005.  He felt it wasn't a matter of if service would return to Nashville, it's more of a question of when.  So, it's not really a new thing for Amtrak to be discussing Nashville.  What has always stood in the way is funding and mismanagement.  Congress continues to be very reluctant to grant expansion funds to Amtrak primarily because of concerns of management and of course because Amtrak pretty much operates at a loss.  The Obama administration wanted to do more with Amtrak but Congress wasn't on board.   There is a slight mentality in Amtrak right now that the Trump administration might see supporting expansion as an opportunity to help them politically because the expansion includes mostly states that lean republican (i.e. Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia).  Expanding Amtrak would create new jobs for many years and expand the infrastructure.   But, with the national deficit growing significantly even under this republican lead administration, it's still a long shot that Congress would appropriate the necessary funds to support Amtrak expansion.

[volsfanwill]

Sigh. 

The Tennessean apparently couldn't read a simple map. 

1. They say the only current stop in Tennessee is in Memphis. This is not true. There is one in Newbern. 

2. They say "establish new service from Memphis to Chicago". The only current Amtrak service in Tennessee is from New Orleans to Chicago via Memphis and Newbern. This proposal seems to indicate additional service from Memphis to Chicago. 

There is also a station in Fulton KY that is only about 2 miles north of the state line on the same route. 

[smeagolsfree]

3 hours ago, volsfanwill said:

Sigh. 

The Tennessean apparently couldn't read a simple map. 

1. They say the only current stop in Tennessee is in Memphis. This is not true. There is one in Newbern. 

2. They say "establish new service from Memphis to Chicago". The only current Amtrak service in Tennessee is from New Orleans to Chicago via Memphis and Newbern. This proposal seems to indicate additional service from Memphis to Chicago. 

There is also a station in Fulton KY that is only about 2 miles north of the state line on the same route. 

I cant comment as they keep cutting personnel by the dozens. Frankly I am surprised they had the time and resources to do the article. But they did break the story.

[Bos2Nash]

When I talk to a couple transportation guys i my office, they are of the opinion that the tracks will need SIGNIFICANT investment in improvements and safety features as the tracks are currently hovering near completely capacity with all the freight. ROW for new tracks will kill this project faster than a cheetah outruns a fat guy, that is a non-starter IMO. 

Amtrak operate almost on a loss. I believe I read somewhere awhile back that the only profitable part of Amtrak's is the Northeast Corridor the runs from Boston to DC. In an unrelated note, this corridor is almost exclusively passenger trains. I say almost because I dont know if it is or not south of NYC. The MBTA shares some commuter rail track with freight trains and it is a scheduling nightmare because CSX retains priority over any passenger trains AND the trains have to built to somewhat survive a head on collision with a fully loaded freight train. Talk about some moolah!!

[nashvylle]

@Bos2Nash so amtrak service is DOA?

Did CSX buy the rights to the tracks previously used by Amtrak?

[Bos2Nash]

15 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

@Bos2Nash so amtrak service is DOA?

Did CSX buy the rights to the tracks previously used by Amtrak?

Had to go back and ask my colleague for more info. Amtrak is definitely not DOA. It's certainly an uphill battle in terms of negotiating, but feasible. CSX also owns majority of the rail in the area. Whether or not they owned it previously doesn't matter because they own it now and run a ton of freight through here so it is a harder (and more expensive) negotiation. 

In our brief conversation just now, we talked that Amtrak has an easier road (or rail? ) to Nashville than a wider Commuter Rail service. The logic is that Amtrak is essentially passing passengers through while Commuter Rail is bringing people from everywhere to a central terminal. Amtrak would have a couple trains a day in fixed schedule boxes. Their negotiation with CSX would be for those moments that the one or two trains pass through at those two times a day. 

[volsfanwill]

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

@Bos2Nash so amtrak service is DOA?

Did CSX buy the rights to the tracks previously used by Amtrak?

@Rookzie will be able to answer this better. But from memory I believe what happened was this:

By the late 60s nearly every railroad was losing money in passenger service. And they all wanted out of that business. The government had mandated certain routes to be maintained for decades even with declining ridership. So, in what was supposed to be the final hurah for intercity passenger services in the US, congress created Amtrak.  Supposedly even the sponsors of the bill thought it would be dead in a decade. The railroads turned over their passenger cars and gave Amtrak permission to use their rails. In exchange, they could concentrate on freight,and freight would get priority. I believe there was even a clause that new routs could not be created, only routes that existed at the creation of Amtrak could be used. Amtrak currently only owns their own tracks in a few areas, mostly in the extremely popular northeast corridor. 

 

[MLBrumby]

51 minutes ago, volsfanwill said:

@Rookzie will be able to answer this better. But from memory I believe what happened was this:

By the late 60s nearly every railroad was losing money in passenger service. And they all wanted out of that business. The government had mandated certain routes to be maintained for decades even with declining ridership. So, in what was supposed to be the final hurah for intercity passenger services in the US, congress created Amtrak.  Supposedly even the sponsors of the bill thought it would be dead in a decade. The railroads turned over their passenger cars and gave Amtrak permission to use their rails. In exchange, they could concentrate on freight,and freight would get priority. I believe there was even a clause that new routs could not be created, only routes that existed at the creation of Amtrak could be used. Amtrak currently only owns their own tracks in a few areas, mostly in the extremely popular northeast corridor. 

 

That's interesting because I believe Amtrak had a route from Chicago through Nashville to Atlanta when it was created. So would that route or portions of it be grandfathered to permit a restart of the service? Depends on what (if anything) Amtrak agreed to give up when it ceased that route. 

[grilled_cheese]

3 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

That's interesting because I believe Amtrak had a route from Chicago through Nashville to Atlanta when it was created. So would that route or portions of it be grandfathered to permit a restart of the service? Depends on what (if anything) Amtrak agreed to give up when it ceased that route. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floridian_(train)

[smeagolsfree]

According to the poll on the TN site the Atlanta corridor route is second in popularity to a train to Chicago. If I were going to be taking the train it would be to Chicago and not Atlanta.

Frankly I dont like going to Atlanta because once you are there you still need a car to get a round and Chicago you dont. Chicago is very easy to get around with mass transit. Riding the buses and Marta in Atlanta has always been a crap shoot. At least it was when I lived there as the directions you need to go are not necessarily serviced by mass transit. 

[drewbert]

I don't have much interest in visiting Atlanta, but absent a route straight across the Smokies, it'd be the best way to get to North Carolina and all points north.  FWIW I'd welcome and use just about *any* route.

[MLBrumby]

8 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

According to the poll on the TN site the Atlanta corridor route is second in popularity to a train to Chicago. If I were going to be taking the train it would be to Chicago and not Atlanta.

Frankly I dont like going to Atlanta because once you are there you still need a car to get a round and Chicago you dont. Chicago is very easy to get around with mass transit. Riding the buses and Marta in Atlanta has always been a crap shoot. At least it was when I lived there as the directions you need to go are not necessarily serviced by mass transit. 

Plus the Chicago market is 3 times the size of atlantas

[Hushpuppy321]

Newbie Here with a general question about Mass Transit in Davidson County - How robust is the Bus System in Davidson County?  Also - Is service pretty good for getting around the County without a car?

Just asking because I have a family member moving from Charlotte to Nashville (Antioch) and they’re curious.  I know you guys know all things Nashville.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[donNdonelson2]

It is very difficult to get around Nashville/Davidson county with only the bus for your transportation needs. You can check out bus maps and schedules at nashvillemta.org

Edited January 19, 2020 by donNdonelson2

[nashvillwill]

3 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Newbie Here with a general question about Mass Transit in Davidson County - How robust is the Bus System in Davidson County?  Also - Is service pretty good for getting around the County without a car?

Just asking because I have a family member moving from Charlotte to Nashville (Antioch) and they’re curious.  I know you guys know all things Nashville.

The short answer is no. Is the system robust? Kind of. But it’s all based on a wheel&spoke design (all routes lead to the same spot downtown) which mirrors the road design of the city. If you just-so-happen to live near a major corridor, which you just-so-happen to work along the same major corridor, it’s feasible. But ultimately, the odds of this (specifically in Antioch) are very slim. If owning a car is not available or desired, Uber/Lyft is certainly the more attractive option. 

Or, if you just-so-happen to live near a major corridor and you work within the downtown 10 block (or so) radius. Then that is much more feasible. If I lived within a few blocks of Murfreesboro Rd and worked downtown, it could be an attractive option  

Having said that, if you absolutely must rely on the bus system in Nashville, it is IMO mostly safe, clean and dependable. Just not widely accessible. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by nashvillwill

[smeagolsfree]

12 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Newbie Here with a general question about Mass Transit in Davidson County - How robust is the Bus System in Davidson County?  Also - Is service pretty good for getting around the County without a car?

Just asking because I have a family member moving from Charlotte to Nashville (Antioch) and they’re curious.  I know you guys know all things Nashville.

They will need a car. Especially if they want to go anywhere on Sunday. The Sunday service is scarce and the further out you get the worse it gets.

Depending on where in Antioch it is it could be non existent. What is considered Antioch is a huge area.

If we know where your family member is going, we may be able to help more. The closer in town the more expensive it gets.

I know you have not been following this thread, but we have been moaning and groaning about Mass transit here since 2004 and we have not had a Mayor yet that has the brains or the gumption to fix it. A few have tried, but too little too late or too much too fast.

The current Mayors plan from what we have heard will be bus heavt and do to a grid system, but the busses will be stuck in traffic with the rest od us fools.

 

[CaptainJilliams]

So with Cooper in office, given his stance, any hope of light rail in Nashville is basically a fantasy now, correct? (Given how strongly he is pushing BRT)

[smeagolsfree]

14 minutes ago, CaptainJilliams said:

So with Cooper in office, given his stance, any hope of light rail in Nashville is basically a fantasy now, correct? (Given how strongly he is pushing BRT)

I think that is a correct assessment unless something drastic change.

[Hushpuppy321]

4 hours ago, CaptainJilliams said:

So with Cooper in office, given his stance, any hope of light rail in Nashville is basically a fantasy now, correct? (Given how strongly he is pushing BRT)

That’s only a bad thing if the BRT proposed doesn’t come with dedicated lanes and some signal prioritization for when it runs in general purpose lanes.  I’ve heard from more than one person that Nashville Peak Traffic is atrocious, worse than Charlotte’s but just under ATL.

Charlotte is about to float an additional Lightrail Line Extension (Blue) as well as another Lightrail Line (Silver) in a public referendum (I’m guessing within a year or two).  I’m hoping the public supports it whenever it happens.  As far as the StreetCar Line (Gold) - I’m not sold on that as viable transit option because it too runs in the street and subject to traffic backups.  Now if it had its own R.O.W. ......

Edited January 19, 2020 by Hushpuppy321

[smeagolsfree]

3 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

That’s only a bad thing if the BRT proposed doesn’t come with dedicated lanes and some signal prioritization for when it runs in general purpose lanes.  I’ve heard from more than one person that Nashville Peak Traffic is atrocious, worse than Charlotte’s but just under ATL.

Charlotte is about to float an additional Lightrail Line Extension (Blue) as well as another Lightrail Line (Silver) in a public referendum (I’m guessing within a year or two).  I’m hoping the public supports it whenever it happens.  As far as the StreetCar Line (Gold) - I’m not sold on that as viable transit option because it too runs in the street and subject to traffic backups.  Now if it had its own R.O.W. ......

We are no where near anything here, as there is not a plan and the State has not been cooperating as far as any dedicated lanes on state roads or interstates. As a matter of fact the state has passed laws limiting dedicated lane mass transit here specifically aimed at Nashville.

Most all of the rail lines here are used for cargo as this is a major cargo rail hub with a huge rail yard south of town, so no cooperation from CSX for rail.

There are not even pay access lanes here like they have in Charlotte and Atlanta. The State has no plan either and when it comes to Nashville they really dont care as the rural legilators try and control what happens.

[Hushpuppy321]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

We are no where near anything here, as there is not a plan and the State has not been cooperating as far as any dedicated lanes on state roads or interstates. As a matter of fact the state has passed laws limiting dedicated lane mass transit here specifically aimed at Nashville.

Most all of the rail lines here are used for cargo as this is a major cargo rail hub with a huge rail yard south of town, so no cooperation from CSX for rail.

There are not even pay access lanes here like they have in Charlotte and Atlanta. The State has no plan either and when it comes to Nashville they really dont care as the rural legilators try and control what happens.

 

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

We are no where near anything here, as there is not a plan and the State has not been cooperating as far as any dedicated lanes on state roads or interstates. As a matter of fact the state has passed laws limiting dedicated lane mass transit here specifically aimed at Nashville.

Most all of the rail lines here are used for cargo as this is a major cargo rail hub with a huge rail yard south of town, so no cooperation from CSX for rail.

There are not even pay access lanes here like they have in Charlotte and Atlanta. The State has no plan either and when it comes to Nashville they really dont care as the rural legilators try and control what happens.

Damn that sucks!!  Pretty much have the same type of rural legislators in the NC General Assembly and they’ve hobbled funding for LightRail projects effectively killing the Durham-Orange LightRail Line (Duke Hospital helped kill it too) and leaving future LightRail funding for Charlotte on life support.  

[Dale]

How realistic are the following possibilities over, say, 3-5 years ? 

Amtrak

Improvements to Music City Star, if only improvements to existing line

BRT

Incremental improvements to roads and sidewalks, better linkages in and around CBD.

 

 

 

 

[smeagolsfree]

My guess is 0%, 0%, 0%, & 20%.

[PaulChinetti]

2 hours ago, Dale said:

1. Incremental improvements to roads and sidewalks, better linkages in and around CBD
2. Improvements to Music City Star, if only improvements to existing line
3. BRT
4. Amtrak

I think probably in that order. 

Which unfortunately #1 being mostly likely and then only adding MORE roads and lanes which won't help anything. 

I think the biggest thing to do right now that would be an immediate help, would be a massive re-timing of traffic lights for the rush hours. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by PaulChinetti

[Dale]

11 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

I think probably in that order. 

Which unfortunately #1 being mostly likely and then only adding MORE roads and lanes which won't help anything. 

I think the biggest thing to do right now that would be an immediate help, would be a massive re-timing of traffic lights for the rush hours. 

Makes sense! Maybe Amtrak level of interest and timeline largely unknown at this point ? 

But wouldn’t it be grand if it repurposed Union Station ?