The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[nashwatcher]

I agree. I think a line down Murfreesboro from the airport to downtown is the perfect first step. The convention center owns the land where the line would terminate downtown. The airport and convention center could contribute some of their excess funds so that there isn’t much impact on the taxpayer. It’s really a win-win all around.

[smeagolsfree]

My guess is that will be funded by the Airport authority and the MCC, and there could be various funding measures from Metro but I doubt it, and the State, and the Feds.

[12Mouth]

1 minute ago, smeagolsfree said:

My guess is that will be funded by the Airport authority and the MCC, and there could be various funding measures from Metro but I doubt it, and the State, and the Feds.

I think you are correct. And this would not need a referendum. If the line from Centennial happens, I suspect Vanderbilt would be willing to kick in, and perhaps some others adjacent to the line (Amazon?). The rest could be funded by tourist taxes (hotel, rental car) and a special sales tax increase downtown). With all of the vitriol against tourists, I think a message of “make the tourists pay for transit” could be quite popular and it could fit neatly into Mayor Cooper’s brand.

[LA_TN]

Why rapid transit to BNA? Because you have a plane to catch!! If you are downtown (local or tourist), would you want to chance your luck on downtown traffic and I-40? I have nearly missed 2 flights from Nashville; both due to a wreck on the road

When I visit other cities, I always take the train/etc. I'm pretty sure most people will do the same here. Reliable rapid transit would be less than $5 vs Uber/taxi $15 minimum. Do you enjoy getting into cars with strangers?

Also, imagine how nice it would be driving on I-40 without taxis backing up traffic by driving 52 mph - in the left lane! 

[Nashvillain]

^ I like everything you're saying here, but I'd like to answer the question of liking getting into cars with strangers with a "yes." Most strangers are perfectly nice and interesting people. Also, when you take the train/bus, you're riding with a bunch of strangers. Same with plane. Strangers everywhere!

[donNdonelson2]

I’m more comfortable getting in an Uber than a taxi. There is comfort in the digital documentation of the transaction and the driver’s identification.

Edited January 26, 2020 by donNdonelson2

[rookzie]

On 1/25/2020 at 12:13 PM, GregH said:

I think transit to the airport would be a big mistake for Nashville, aside from normal bus service. It would be largely for the benefit of out-of-towners since the number of locals that would want to go downtown to get a train to the airport would be quite small. Even then, I don't think it would capture a big enough portion of those travelers to be worthwhile. Maybe it would make sense as a tie-in to an existing network, but as a first or even 5th line I don't see the benefit.

 

On 1/25/2020 at 1:03 PM, BnaBreaker said:

In my opinion, it wouldn't just be a benefit exclusive to tourists given the fact that there are ever increasing numbers of people living in the central core.  Plus, assuming it isn't an express line and has a few stops in between it would be a direct benefit to anyone living anywhere on the line as a way to get to downtown or the airport as well.  Furthermore, If one of the stops closer to the airport had a park and ride option, it would open it up as a cheaper option to the airport for anyone in the surrounding area, whether they live near the line itself or not.  Plus, the line could help spur development on that side of town as well.

There are other major benefits to having a line to the airport for the tourist specifically.  Aside from saving people money from airport parking fees or Uber/taxis to and from the airport, I think, to have regular, speedy, reliable, direct, and affordable service that takes you directly into and out of downtown without ever having to rely on a car, would be of great benefit to someone not familiar with the city.  

I understand and appreciate your concern that it might set a bad precedent if made the initial line.  No doubt, the city needs to get it right directly out of the gate if it wants to convince residents that it is worth the money to invest in future lines.  But I actually think it is the perfect first option for that reason.  It has an obvious and very apparent function and purpose, which kind of eliminates the naysayer's ability to make the 'train to nowhere' argument.

Having a rail rapid from downtown to the airport highly likely would affect the volume of vehicular traffic ─ measurably.

Nearly every U.S. city has experienced increased patronage on rapid transit connecting to airports ─ surprisingly even to an extent for the "remote" SBN (South Bend International), as an alternative to ORD and MDW.  Denver's RTD A Line railroad-type electric multiple unit trains to the airport (DEN) also have seen an increase, despite overall drop in ridership system-wide (mainly due to reliability of on-time performance).   The RTD A Line is similar in technology to that of Philadelphia's SEPTA Regional to PHL.  And Cleveland's  Red-Line "Rapid", which had became one of the nation's first direct airport (CLE) connection to the CBD (one-seat ride), also has performed reasonably well, given the budget constraints of the agency (GCRTA).  That was completed around 1968.  It has been stated by several sources that having the Red-Line rapid in place (Hopkins Airport to Windermere), likely had been instrumental in helping Cleveland endure its hard-knocks from the '70s through much of the '90s.   Finally, Buffalo Metro Rail (NFTA) has been having serious discussions to extend its Light Rail to BUF, also operated by the NFTA.

It may seem to be mostly tourists who utilize BNA, but those consistently full economy parking lots suggest that it's far more than just they utilizing BNA.  And that discounts the multitudes who Kiss-n-Ride with drop-offs and pick-ups.  Since air travel has been the assumed "norm" for most interstate (domestic travel), in addition to the elimination of other attractive commercial options for regional intercity travel, many old timers such as I, resident of Middle Tennessee (and to an extent Ky, and Al.), took to the air long ago for most long-distance trips, before many on this forum were even born (or "thought" about being hatched).

In short, an airport rapid would be in order ─ not necessarily as a permanent standalone, but perhaps as a branch from another radial line.  A light rail line corridor from downtown to Antioch could be a game changer to the southeast county, a route separate from a possible FRA railroad commuter line, in conjunction with Amtrak service along a limited stop railroad corridor to Murfreesboro, Tullahoma, and beyond.  That actually would fulfill a separate transport need, as must of us might assume.

Edited January 28, 2020 by rookzie

[jtmonk]

On 1/25/2020 at 2:27 AM, PHofKS said:

There was some discussion on the Avalon Midtown topic about the possibility the City may be considering some sort of transit line from downtown to Midtown. I have made a few sketches with a suggestion on how to route it to the West End/White Bridge Road area.

First I would  recommend using a 'street car' such as what Atlanta has installed in their downtown...

… rather than a trolley such as what Charlotte is installing....

The trolley resembles a tour bus and may not be readily identifiable as rapid transit in Nashville.

 

One little correction.  One of the reasons Charlotte used these old heritage trolleys in the early 2000's was to get people interested in rail transit before building their light rail, their light rail now stretches 20 miles.  Afterwards the City used the heritage trolleys on a 1.5 mile starter line which is now being expanded to 4 miles and will use modern streetcars like Atlanta.  While I agree they are a little gimmicky and not really the best for rapid transit use,  they did do a great job in introducing the City to rail transit. 

[rookzie]

54 minutes ago, jtmonk said:

One little correction.  One of the reasons Charlotte used these old heritage trolleys in the early 2000's was to get people interested in rail transit before building their light rail, their light rail now stretches 20 miles.  Afterwards the City used the heritage trolleys on a 1.5 mile starter line which is now being expanded to 4 miles and will use modern streetcars like Atlanta.  While I agree they are a little gimmicky and not really the best for rapid transit use,  they did do a great job in introducing the City to rail transit. 

Back in July 2004, I did get to ride the original vintage streetcar, restored in mid-late 1990s, prior to the construction of the LYNX Blue Line light rail line.  It ran on a former branch of RoW acquired from the Norfolk Southern RR.    Nº 85 had been the last trolley to run when Charlotte was a streetcar city in the 1930s.  This RR spur later became part of what is the current Blue Line.

Unlike with the later Gomaco-built reproduction cars which are air-conditioned, car Nº 85 had a trolley pole, instead of the more modern application utilizing a pantograph overhead electric pickup.  While not "original"-looking as trolley poles, pantographs eliminate "de-wirements" common with poles.  Nº 85 had been discovered on a condemned piece of property before special interest took over and the car had been brought back to life.  I believe the car actually had served as a makeshift apartment in the rear of that property on which it was discovered.

The Gomaco A-C replica cars, later used on the CATS Lynx Gold Line have served well, but they don't actually represent light rail by definition.  In fact, the Gold Line actually is a streetcar line rather than actually light rail, so their transit purpose is different from that of a light rail line, as with the BLue Line.   They actually were built to be streetcar circulators, just as with the ones in Tampa (TECO) and the streetcars of Little Rock's Rock Region Metro, and the non-airconditioned Gomaco's in Memphis (MATA).  Replacing the Charlotte replica streetcars with modern ones will increase the capacity, just as with those of Atlanta.  Nº 85 was the streetcar "Seed" which helped garner support for Charlotte's  first light-rail line, the current Blue Line

Car Nº 85 being trucked along Interstate 85 and hoisted onto temporary track at the NC Transportation Museum,  at Spencer

[Rockatansky]

On 1/26/2020 at 9:04 AM, donNdonelson2 said:

I’m more comfortable getting in an Uber than a taxi. There is comfort in the digital documentation of the transaction and the driver’s identification.

Hehe. I'm the exact opposite. The idea of riding with a random person in their vehicle makes me uncomfortable. With a taxi you're getting a professional (at least in theory).

[markhollin]

93 mayors of the Greater Nashville Regional Council announced Thursday they will help coordinate the council's Unified Transportation Plan 2020.

According to a release — and calling for a “sense of urgency among fellow policymakers and the public to address traffic congestion and infrastructure challenges” — the mayors announced the “Year of Transportation” initiative as local and state leaders seek federal funding for mass transit for Middle Tennessee.T

he effort is being driven, in part, because the many transportation plans being formulated by both local government entities and the state need to be collectively combined to provide a “regional path” that will allow effective investment of future federal, state and local dollars.

The deadline to finalize and adopt the Unified Transportation Plan is Feb. 21, 2021. Relatedly, the public will have its first chance to see the draft of the plan in the summer. After the plan is released, there will be public input.

According to GNRC research, during the next 25 years:

•    Williamson County’s population is projected to increase by almost 150 percent of its 2018 population estimate of 220,000 — growing to more than 555,000 people. Its employment numbers should more than double as well.

•    Wilson County is expected to be the second fastest growing county within the region, seeing a 94 percent increase in population and a 73 percent hike in jobs.

•    Rutherford County (now with about 325,000 people) is expected to grow by 81 percent, easily surpassing Chattanooga-Hamilton County (about 350,000 residents) as the state’s fourth most populated county by 2045.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/transportation/article/21113034/midstate-mayors-unite-on-transit-initiative

And at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2020/01/30/whats-next-nashville-area-transit-regional-unity/4599886002/

 

[KJHburg]

Maybe someone posted this before but I have not seen this.  A 74 page report on why the transit vote failed in Nashville and what other cities can learn about it.   So many mistakes made that has become a textbook example of what not to do evidently. 

from the Transit Center

https://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/nashville_report_8x10_RGB_interactive.pdf

[smeagolsfree]

I think we saw, but all of the heads on the forum are hung in shame right now at the lack of leadership we have coming from the last three mayors, current one included. I have no faith in the voters of Nashville to ever do the right thing again.

[KJHburg]

I think the solution is to start very modestly.  Then it allows people to see the benefits of transit and more will seek it.  Charlotte started with one line 9 miles to the south then added another 10 just a few years ago.    That is over a 15 year period.  Now plans are underway for more but it has much more widespread support than in the past.  I think from the get go this plan was way too ambitious and should have started modestly but from reading this report there were other issues in the background. However business as usual will not work as the city keeps getting much more congested. 

[PaulChinetti]

Yeah we have definitely talked about the modest approach but AMP didn't go. Maybe it will now that everywhere is more congested. Who knows, I doubt Cooper's ability to get anything done though, as doing things cost money and he doesn't want to spend money on anything but neighborhoods or whatever. 

[rookzie]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

Yeah we have definitely talked about the modest approach but AMP didn't go. Maybe it will now that everywhere is more congested. Who knows, I doubt Cooper's ability to get anything done though, as doing things cost money and he doesn't want to spend money on anything but neighborhoods or whatever. 

I concede that this is how I feel as well.   You can only put so many shades of eyeliner and lipstick on a pig.   I've gotten so frustrated that I now just SMDH and walk away.

And yes, KJHburg is correct.  In this day and age, that's the only way that Kansas City (MO) finally got off to a start, after previous more ambitious efforts were thwarted ─ even though it currently only is in the form of a modern streetcar.   The KC Streetcar has gained popularity and has prepared for an extension, the Main Street extension to UMKC.  The planning for this extension has not been without bumps, and one application for an FTA grant failed to meet a 2019 deadline.  But political will and teamwork among committed partners has forged a momentous movement towards meeting the requirements of a resubmitted application by the annual deadline for the competitive federal program.  The projected total cost of the project has increased by 10% in less than 12 months, but the local funding was increased by 8%, approved recently by the recently created Main Street Rail Transportation Development District (TDD) of 2018, in the form of a 1-cent sales tax.

KC already had created the Downtown Transportation Development District in 2012, to fund the development of the initial 2-mile streetcar start-up.  Overall it has taken STARTING LITTLE, along with legal wrangling to counter opposition and to finally get it off the ground in KC.  Charlotte seems to have performed better in this respect, but it also had a few elements of advantage,  unlike what KC had.  Nashville simply has Zilch in place to even begin to kindle for small.

[nashvylle]

5 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

Yeah we have definitely talked about the modest approach but AMP didn't go. Maybe it will now that everywhere is more congested. Who knows, I doubt Cooper's ability to get anything done though, as doing things cost money and he doesn't want to spend money on anything but neighborhoods or whatever. 

The Amp I equivalent to the MLS stadium. It wasnt so much the BRT on dedicated lanes, but the fact it was on West End along Lee beamans automotive and certain west end neighborhoods- ruffled the wrong feathers. 
Had the amp been on Charlotte, it would have passed. 

 

 

[PaulChinetti]

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

The Amp I equivalent to the MLS stadium. It wasnt so much the BRT on dedicated lanes, but the fact it was on West End along Lee beamans automotive and certain west end neighborhoods- ruffled the wrong feathers. 
Had the amp been on Charlotte, it would have passed. 

At that time that’s where it needed to go. Charlotte wasn’t nearly what it is today. 

[Tennessine]

On 1/25/2020 at 9:48 PM, LA_TN said:

Why rapid transit to BNA? Because you have a plane to catch!! If you are downtown (local or tourist), would you want to chance your luck on downtown traffic and I-40? I have nearly missed 2 flights from Nashville; both due to a wreck on the road

When I visit other cities, I always take the train/etc. I'm pretty sure most people will do the same here. Reliable rapid transit would be less than $5 vs Uber/taxi $15 minimum. Do you enjoy getting into cars with strangers?

Also, imagine how nice it would be driving on I-40 without taxis backing up traffic by driving 52 mph - in the left lane! 

Rapid transit to our airport should be, in theory, a no-brainer. 

Executing it with current infrastructure in place is an obstacle to overcome- and that's disregarding public opinion on the matter.

[Rockatansky]

On 1/31/2020 at 1:45 PM, KJHburg said:

I think the solution is to start very modestly.

This was tried with The Amp. It was killed by the state.

[GregH]

Perhaps I am mis-remembering or giving Lee Beaman too much credit but as I recall it was largely the combination of his extreme agitating and whiny rich far West-Enders that got state-level Republicans into it. That sort of opposition might not be as much of an issue for projects in other parts of town, though it also seems possible to me that opposition to all mass transit has become an unwritten plank of the Republican party.

[12Mouth]

27 minutes ago, GregH said:

Perhaps I am mis-remembering or giving Lee Beaman too much credit but as I recall it was largely the combination of his extreme agitating and whiny rich far West-Enders that got state-level Republicans into it. That sort of opposition might not be as much of an issue for projects in other parts of town, though it also seems possible to me that opposition to all mass transit has become an unwritten plank of the Republican party.

That is a lot of what I recall, but the criticisms were more widespread in my memory - I was at several of those meetings, including the one on West End where the woman said she didn't want "those people" coming to her neighborhood (i.e. whiny rich far West Ender). Honestly, the state basically shut it down before it moved towards implementation, but the Amp was already pretty unpopular (except in East Nashville) by that point. There were lots of reasons (that could all be replicated on any future single line): Parking eliminated, forced u-turns, travelling in the center instead of curb, "bus" instead of "train", not personally serving the individual needs of everyone in Nashville, etc. It is so much easier to find faults in any one specific plan (and even easier with a single line) than to mobilize people around it.

[smeagolsfree]

4 hours ago, Rockatansky said:

This was tried with The Amp. It was killed by the state.

Actually it was killed by Lee Beaman with the States help and the Koch brothers backing.

[markhollin]

Downtown's long-awaited bike lane project is finally moving forward.

Construction has begun on a bike lane along Commerce Street, between Ninth and Second avenues. The project is expected to take two months to complete and cost roughly $100,000.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2020/02/04/work-begins-on-long-awaited-downtown-bike-lane.html?iana=hpmvp_nsh_news_headline

[Bark At The Sun]