The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Armacing]

43 minutes ago, L'burgnative said:

I know you're joking but I've been thinking about this for a while.  I know for some reason most here hate interstates but they're the necessary evil till we get our flying cars or teleporting.  Neither is coming anytime soon.  Think about roundabouting the downtown loop?  What if you reconfigure the ramps, rip out the retaining walls and made it all one direction running counter clock wise?  I know a lot of y'all think adding lanes doesn't do anything but I call BS on that, especially removing bottle necks.  I believe Nashville's biggest problem with its interstate system is that you have 8,10 or 12-lane freeways all converge and battle necking onto a 6-lane downtown loop that hasn't been updated since there existence in the 60's.  By doing this you get 6 to 7 lanes on the DT loop, no right-of-way purchasing, no widening necessary and I don't get it but I hear a lot of people say Nashville's interstates are confusing and I think it would simplify it even more.  I think Nashville's interstates are simple but one of my geek sides is studying maps so I might not be the best at confirming if your system is simple or confusing.  There's only one way to go and you exit off the loop to where you have to get off.  I don't think re-configuring ramps would cost more than widening and doubling it's width (which is what is needed) but I could be wrong but I know it would be much cheaper than the double decking bad idea.  The only area I see as a problem would be the I-24 bridge over the Cumberland, places like the grass medians at the I-40/I-65 and I-40/I-24 south of DT and I-65/I-24 North of DT get narrower and more valuable land back to the city for development. When the widening started on the interstates in Nashville in the early 90's they should have started with the DT loop and worked there way out.  Instead they started out, worked there way in just a little and worked further and further out.  This too in my opinion encouraged more sprawl.  The only thru-route you may add miles by doing this would be I-40W, and any Tennessean's old enough will remember I-65 used to follow on the east side of the loop and the current I-65 north of downtown between I-40 and I-24 used to be I-265 so no added miles there for I-65N.  This conversation I know doesn't belong on Circle South but I quoted someone above who brought up something off subject I've been thinking about.

 

Good idea. I like it!

[PruneTracy]

53 minutes ago, L'burgnative said:

Think about roundabouting the downtown loop?  What if you reconfigure the ramps, rip out the retaining walls and made it all one direction running counter clock wise?

This is one of the "big ideas" alluded to in this current study:

https://www.solvethistogether.org/inner-loop

It first came up some years ago in a Nashville MPO managed lanes study (https://www.gnrc.org/DocumentCenter/View/1033/HOV-and-Managed-Lanes-Feasibility-Assessment-2015) as a means of clearing space for, well, managed lanes.

The main hurdles are eastbound traffic on I-40 heading to northbound I-24/I-65 and westbound traffic on I-24/I-40 heading to southbound I-65. I-440 is a good detour for the latter, but Briley Parkway is not for the former (it does not provide good access to I-24/I-65 from North Nashville, Germantown, etc.).

Kansas City studied a similar idea a while back, although their loop is only one mile around (Nashville's is eight) and has many more exits. I am not sure what stage of development that project is in other than it's not in the ground.

[titanhog]

1 hour ago, L'burgnative said:

I know you're joking but I've been thinking about this for a while.  I know for some reason most here hate interstates but they're the necessary evil till we get our flying cars or teleporting.  Neither is coming anytime soon.  Think about roundabouting the downtown loop?  What if you reconfigure the ramps, rip out the retaining walls and made it all one direction running counter clock wise?  I know a lot of y'all think adding lanes doesn't do anything but I call BS on that, especially removing bottle necks.  I believe Nashville's biggest problem with its interstate system is that you have 8,10 or 12-lane freeways all converge and battle necking onto a 6-lane downtown loop that hasn't been updated since there existence in the 60's.  By doing this you get 6 to 7 lanes on the DT loop, no right-of-way purchasing, no widening necessary and I don't get it but I hear a lot of people say Nashville's interstates are confusing and I think it would simplify it even more.  I think Nashville's interstates are simple but one of my geek sides is studying maps so I might not be the best at confirming if your system is simple or confusing.  There's only one way to go and you exit off the loop to where you have to get off.  I don't think re-configuring ramps would cost more than widening and doubling it's width (which is what is needed) but I could be wrong but I know it would be much cheaper than the double decking bad idea.  The only area I see as a problem would be the I-24 bridge over the Cumberland, places like the grass medians at the I-40/I-65 and I-40/I-24 south of DT and I-65/I-24 North of DT get narrower and more valuable land back to the city for development. When the widening started on the interstates in Nashville in the early 90's they should have started with the DT loop and worked there way out.  Instead they started out, worked there way in just a little and worked further and further out.  This too in my opinion encouraged more sprawl.  The only thru-route you may add miles by doing this would be I-40W, and any Tennessean's old enough will remember I-65 used to follow on the east side of the loop and the current I-65 north of downtown between I-40 and I-24 used to be I-265 so no added miles there for I-65N.  This conversation I know doesn't belong on Circle South but I quoted someone above who brought up something off subject I've been thinking about.

 

Yes...I was joking...but then I actually thought about the trucker's curve area and thought about how that could almost be a "roundabout" of sorts to make those transitions more smooth.  It wouldn't be a perfect circle...and I'm not sure a person could loop back around to get back on the same interstate they're traveling going in the opposite direction.  But...with tall concrete girders you could definitely get everyone to slow down a bit and make those interchanges more "circular" and maybe lessen the absolute interstate gridlock during drive time.

As far as having the loop go in one direction...counter clockwise...it's a good idea, but like Prune Tracy alluded to...there are some hurdles.  You'd need to make Briley the northern section of 440...at least from I-40 to I-24 north of the city.

[L'burgnative]

7 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

This is one of the "big ideas" alluded to in this current study:

https://www.solvethistogether.org/inner-loop

It first came up some years ago in a Nashville MPO managed lanes study (https://www.gnrc.org/DocumentCenter/View/1033/HOV-and-Managed-Lanes-Feasibility-Assessment-2015) as a means of clearing space for, well, managed lanes.

The main hurdles are eastbound traffic on I-40 heading to northbound I-24/I-65 and westbound traffic on I-24/I-40 heading to southbound I-65. I-440 is a good detour for the latter, but Briley Parkway is not for the former (it does not provide good access to I-24/I-65 from North Nashville, Germantown, etc.).

Kansas City studied a similar idea a while back, although their loop is only one mile around (Nashville's is eight) and has many more exits. I am not sure what stage of development that project is in other than it's not in the ground.

We live in a time where people's navigation system tells the them "take the next right" than to care how to make since in the interstate signage.  I don't know if Briley should be the northern 440 but Briley needs its "shield" much like Ellington  I'm thanking I-624 for Briley I-465 for Ellington so tourist will use them for alternatives.  I use them but I know Nashville, most of your tourist don't.  Briley with little work and little cost could be done from 40 to 24 on the southeast to fix that.  Ellington... just some flyover ramps to connect to the loop.

Edited May 7, 2020 by L'burgnative

[L'burgnative]

The only ramps needing reconfigured are the interstate ramps.  Secondary roads could keep a left and right entrance/exit ramps sign it to what your next turn would be.  I'm getting on the loop from 2nd ave. south heading south I can take the first ramp  (of a counter clock rotation) if I want  take 65N/24W or I could take the second ramp on the if I want to go 40E/24E.  Maybe Prune I'm not getting the confusion your talking about.

Edited May 7, 2020 by L'burgnative

[L'burgnative]

I'm from Lawrenceburg with a lot of family in Ohio.  Like I said earlier I-65 was on the east side of the loop in my childhood, maybe I'm old school but if I'm heading north through Nashville (still on 65 today since I'm in Huntsville now) despite what the I-65N signs say I still take the east side of the loop when seeing family.  I can't say I have ever driven the old I-265 ever.  The only times I can ever remember going on the west side of the loop was when I worked at I.C. Thomasson as a draftsman delivering drawings at Cummings Station to I can't remember the arch's there back then.  Even though I've been there more than any other arch firms I can't remember the name, home base was out of Atlanta and was a two name name. and Earl Swanson ( I think) in the Lowes building in West end.  We're talking about 2001-2004.  Also we use the west side of the loop when we would go to the State Capital protesting against state income tax around 2002.  My wife and I have had multiple nights at the Sheraton and I bought a G coupe from a guy living in the Viridian.  Those are the only times thinking out loud I can ever remember using the west side of the loop.

Edited May 7, 2020 by L'burgnative

[LA_TN]

8 hours ago, L'burgnative said:

Think about roundabouting the downtown loop?  What if you reconfigure the ramps, rip out the retaining walls and made it all one direction running counter clock wise?

I have thought about this for many many years! 

[nashvylle]

Maybe I’m not as imaginative as you others, maybe I’m just plain dumb, but I’m not sure what you guys mean by just doing a downtown roundabout loop and how it will help.

[Rockatansky]

12 hours ago, L'burgnative said:

Ellington... just some flyover ramps

Ellington's connection to the interstates downtown is much more problematic than you'd think. It needs to connect to the interstates, S 5th and Spring Street without encroaching on the CSX line which runs right through the area. I agree that the intersection should be reworked, but it won't be an easy fix.

[downtownresident]

2 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Maybe I’m not as imaginative as you others, maybe I’m just plain dumb, but I’m not sure what you guys mean by just doing a downtown roundabout loop and how it will help.

Instead of three lanes in each direction, you could do five/six lanes in one direction, with entry/exit on both sides of the interstate to surface streets, and less merging/weaving to change interstates. The loop isn’t very long, so it wouldn’t be too bad of a detour for continuing traffic. 

[PaulChinetti]

That whole area is such a cluster, and it takes up 98 acres! Wow, I knew it was big but good lord. 

[BnaBreaker]

28 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

That whole area is such a cluster, and it takes up 98 acres! Wow, I knew it was big but good lord. 

 

That's basically the size of the entirety of The Gulch neighborhood south of Broadway.  Such an absurd waste of space right smack in the middle of the core. 

[PruneTracy]

13 hours ago, L'burgnative said:

We live in a time where people's navigation system tells the them "take the next right" than to care how to make since in the interstate signage.  I don't know if Briley should be the northern 440 but Briley needs its "shield" much like Ellington  I'm thanking I-624 for Briley I-465 for Ellington so tourist will use them for alternatives.  I use them but I know Nashville, most of your tourist don't.  Briley with little work and little cost could be done from 40 to 24 on the southeast to fix that.  Ellington... just some flyover ramps to connect to the loop.

Briley makes more sense as a loop of I-40. All of the I-40 loop numbers are used in Tennessee, but can be reused between metro areas (cf. North Carolina). So I would make Briley I-640 to confuse the GIS folks at TDOT. The other option is stealing I-240 from Memphis and fixing their abysmal numbering system by re-designating I-240 as I-469, which will make more sense once I-69 is completed in Tennessee (in twenty-never).

That being said, Briley desperately needs an upgrade to freeway standards between I-40 and I-24 next to the airport (and subsequent extension of the Interstate designation to I-24). I detailed the work needed to achieve that here:

It is not cheap (low nine figures as noted in this post) but a relatively small effort for a large return, namely getting a bypass for I-24 through downtown.

Ellington Parkway doesn't provide a system connection at its southern end and is therefore not a loop (yet). All I-65 spur numbers are available for use (keeping in mind that Vietnam Veterans Parkway and Saturn Parkway could also be spurs of I-65).

For what it's worth Interstate policy is inconsistent between states and largely a matter of policy/funding issues. Tennessee has many highways that fit the criteria to be Interstates (and would be in a different state) and has a few Interstates that aren't a good fit (and wouldn't be in a different state). But it's clear from the I-840 switch that drivers want to see that shield before they consider it as an alternative route.

44 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

That whole area is such a cluster, and it takes up 98 acres! Wow, I knew it was big but good lord.

2 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

That's basically the size of the entirety of The Gulch neighborhood south of Broadway.  Such an absurd waste of space right smack in the middle of the core. 

Keep in mind that much of that area is flood-prone (both of the area and flash varieties) and is not suitable for development. It would make a nice park. I will have to run it through the conceptual design wringer.

[Jamie Hall]

14 hours ago, L'burgnative said:

I don't know if Briley should be the northern 440 but Briley needs its "shield" much like Ellington  I'm thanking I-624 for Briley I-465 for Ellington so tourist will use them for alternatives.  I use them but I know Nashville, most of your tourist don't.  Briley with little work and little cost could be done from 40 to 24 on the southeast to fix that.  Ellington... just some flyover ramps to connect to the loop.

I've made this same argument here in the past. The entire northern half of Briley and most of Ellington would appear to qualify for interstate designation, so I don't understand why they aren't. As a traveler, I'm much more inclined to use a road marked as an "interstate" rather than a "parkway," simply because I know exactly what type of road to expect. The shield really does matter.

[MidTenn1]

18 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

Keep in mind that much of that area is flood-prone (both of the area and flash varieties) and is not suitable for development. It would make a nice park. I will have to run it through the conceptual design wringer.

I've always understood that land was also the city dump many, many years  ago and the soil is too soft to build a road bed, hence the the reason there are several bridges constructed over dry land.

[markhollin]

The 3.2 mile, $46 million Mack Hatcher Memorial parkway extension is  making good headway. 

Crews have completed several aspects of the project, including beam and bridge work over both the Harpeth River and West Harpeth River. This has happened since the groundbreaking at the end of 2018. 

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/williamson/2020/05/06/mack-hatcher-parkway-progress-2020/5177659002/
 

[nashvylle]

Is the above really needed? Or is this another $46mm that is spent and not a peep from the stop amp crew

[downtownresident]

11 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Is the above really needed? Or is this another $46mm that is spent and not a peep from the stop amp crew

It’ll end up connecting Westhaven with Cool Springs/the interstate, and keep them from having to drive through downtown Franklin. It’ll also spur a lot more development and end up causing more congestion. 

[MidTenn1]

Totally random thought; I new Mack Hatcher many years ago (the Williamson County Road Engineer as I recall) and he seemed like a smart and friendly person. It's just odd seeing this major throughway named after him.

[PruneTracy]

3 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Is the above really needed? Or is this another $46mm that is spent and not a peep from the stop amp crew

Traffic projections are always open to interpretation (especially when a new roadway is involved), but this one does improve level of service on State Route 96 and Hillsboro Pike in the design year, according to the NEPA traffic study.

1 hour ago, PHofKS said:

Totally random thought; I new Mack Hatcher many years ago (the Williamson County Road Engineer as I recall) and he seemed like a smart and friendly person. It's just odd seeing this major throughway named after him.

It is refreshing since so many end up getting named after politicians.

Just think, one day people might drive on the Prune Tracy Parkway.

[L'burgnative]

On 5/7/2020 at 11:25 AM, PruneTracy said:

Briley makes more sense as a loop of I-40. All of the I-40 loop numbers are used in Tennessee, but can be reused between metro areas (cf. North Carolina). So I would make Briley I-640 to confuse the GIS folks at TDOT.

Ellington Parkway doesn't provide a system connection at its southern end and is therefore not a loop (yet). All I-65 spur numbers are available for use (keeping in mind that Vietnam Veterans Parkway and Saturn Parkway could also be spurs of I-65).

Keep in mind that much of that area is flood-prone (both of the area and flash varieties) and is not suitable for development. It would make a nice park. I will have to run it through the conceptual design wringer.

I did not know an interstate number could be used twice within the same state, that's why I went I-624 since that hasn't been taken in the State and if Briley was upgraded between I-24 and I-40 on the southeast (airport) then it would cross I-24 twice also.  I'm reserving an I-224 for Chattanooga, I-424 for Murfreesboro and I-824 for Clarksville if the need ever came up.  Can upgrading I'm guessing a miles and a half of existing roadway really cost in the nine figure range?

If Ellington connect to the DT loop directly it would no longer be a spur which is why I gave it an even number.  As you "run it through the conceptual design wringer" eliminate the ramps with Spring Street and Main Street and add ramps to I-24!

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by L'burgnative

[markhollin]

Editorial: Let's make less traffic part of the new normal for Nashville:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2020/05/11/lets-make-less-traffic-part-new-normal-nashville/3089992001/

[nashvylle]

53 minutes ago, markhollin said:

Editorial: Let's make less traffic part of the new normal for Nashville:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/money/2020/05/11/lets-make-less-traffic-part-new-normal-nashville/3089992001/

That was a pretty bad article, in my opinion. His solution is for everyone to work at home. Nothing else presented. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by nashvylle

[Nashvillain]

43 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

That was a pretty bad article, in my opinion. His solution is for everyone to work at home. Nothing else presented. 

This is an op-ed. And I think it's reductive to say the suggestion was "everyone" work at home. Rather offer incentives for companies to make this a priority (for the type of jobs where it makes sense)

[nashvylle]

3 minutes ago, Nashvillain said:

This is an op-ed. And I think it's reductive to say the suggestion was "everyone" work at home. Rather offer incentives for companies to make this a priority (for the type of jobs where it makes sense)

I don't disagree, but I was hoping for more than what was presented.