The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[donNdonelson2]

Houston just saw a major transportation project opening, 10.3 miles of new toll lanes that were added to highway 288, a major route out of the city into Brazoria County toward Lake Jackson. The Houston area toll roads include Beltway 8 Tollway that circles the city, the Hardy Toll Road running north, roughly parallel to I-45, the Fort Bend Tollway that serves the southwest quadrant out into Fort Bend County, and toll lanes on I-10 west toward Katy, the Westpark Tollway, and the Grand Parkway (a partial ring road).

Edited November 20, 2020 by donNdonelson2

[markhollin]

I-440 shots from several months ago courtesy of Aerial Innovations:
 

[Mike G]

Why is Brightwood Ave (3rd picture) so wide? Was it done for a Belmont interchange that never happened?

[PaulChinetti]

Good question. 

I've always liked that road/bridge. Nice little green area somewhere, where you don't expect one.

[smeagolsfree]

nashvylle

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Posted 49 minutes ago

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO A POST ON ANOTHER THREAD.

  2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

a  massive revamp of the inner interstate loop.

What does this mean, exactly? 

It is a travesty in its current form and function and has to be fixed. It is pretty much the same design it was when it was built back in the 50s with a few improvements here and there. Basically it is the south loop that has to be fixed along with all of the interstate bridges that are too short, too narrow and are of a bad design. 

One way to fix this is to double deck the interstate on the south loop with through traffic either above or below with no exits. This would include all truck traffic. Revamp truckers curve, the scene of so many wrecks due to bad design as well.

All interstate interchanges need to be overhauled so there is no crisscrossing of traffic. It is confusing, dangerous and the person that came up with the design should be hung in effigy. The best example is below.

Another element would be to fix the Cluster that is the stretch that runs from the I24/40 spilt east of town into and out of downtown.  You have two major interstates that have just under two mile to switch from two lanes over to the other two lanes. What were they thinking?  

Some of that could be fixed if they rerouted I 24 onto Briley, eight lane the portion between  the current I 24 to the current 8 lane section of Briley, then extending Briley to continue at the current I 24 SE of the current I 24 - 40 split. Then all of the I 24 traffic through downtown is eliminated.

[Mike G]

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but why does Ellington Parkway exist? Was it around before I-24, and then never decommissioned? I guess it offers quick access to areas just east of Gallatin Rd, but it's a twisted mess to get on it.

[Nicholson]

15 hours ago, Mike G said:

Forgive me if this is common knowledge, but why does Ellington Parkway exist? Was it around before I-24, and then never decommissioned? I guess it offers quick access to areas just east of Gallatin Rd, but it's a twisted mess to get on it.

This has always interested me too, so i jumped down the rabbit hole -

Ellington Parkway, Route 31E used to be part of the old national highway network, in the pre-Interstate Highways era.

 

Apparently Route 31E and Gallatin Road used to be the same corridor.

The present-day alignment with access ramps was built during the Parkways era, during Nashville "Urban Renewal" in the 1960s. This is when James Robertson Parkway bulldozed its way through downtown, crossed the river and terminated at the entrance to Ellington Parkway. 

With the addition of I24 in 1970, the huge spaghetti intersection was born. It takes up about as much space as the central business district.

Planning and Transportation agencies have studied the area pretty extensively, and looked at ways to improve it.

 There's some great PDFs out there, and if I find more I'll add them to the thread.

Nashville's pre-interstate aerial view:

The old Streetcar Network:

[smeagolsfree]

Sure would like to hang the fellow or fellows that got rid of our street cars. They didnt know what they were doing at the time.

[nashvylle]

17 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Sure would like to hang the fellow or fellows that got rid of our street cars. They didnt know what they were doing at the time.

Were cars able to drive over and on the rails at that time? if yes, imagine what Nashville would be if we just decommissioned the streetcars back then instead of also removing the rails

[markhollin]

7 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Were cars able to drive over and on the rails at that time? if yes, imagine what Nashville would be if we just decommissioned the streetcars back then instead of also removing the rails

I'm guessing that like so many cities, the rails are still there imbedded in brick streets that are now covered by multiple layers of asphalt. 

[smeagolsfree]

17 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Were cars able to drive over and on the rails at that time? if yes, imagine what Nashville would be if we just decommissioned the streetcars back then instead of also removing the rails

Yes, I think the cars were able to drive in the same lanes and along the tracks.

 

8 minutes ago, markhollin said:

I'm guessing that like so many cities, the rails are still there imbedded in brick streets that are now covered by multiple layers of asphalt. 

Many of the rails were taken up for scrap during the war effort, but a lot still remain.

[nashvylle]

Not a good reception from budget committee

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2020/12/09/nashville-mayor-john-coopers-transit-plan-gutted-council-members/6500392002/

[smeagolsfree]

I think you can put this proposal in the dead file where it belongs along with the re election prospects for Cooper too.

[Jamie Hall]

Surely the mayor and/or his staff had to know this transportation plan would be DOA with the city council. Why even waste the time, effort, and money on 348 pages of nothingness? 

[MLBrumby]

I think because he's already campaigning for reelection. Or he's completely tone-deaf when it comes to reading his support, or lack thereof.  I have not yet looked at the proposal, but I'd expect that he was trying to throw a bone to certain areas of town with transit options. 

Your comment is well-placed. Because if he didn't already know he has minimal support from the Metro Council, he ought to know that now. 

[rookzie]

 

On 12/1/2020 at 3:31 PM, Nicholson said:

This has always interested me too, so i jumped down the rabbit hole -

Ellington Parkway, Route 31E used to be part of the old national highway network, in the pre-Interstate Highways era.

Apparently Route 31E and Gallatin Road used to be the same corridor.

The present-day alignment with access ramps was built during the Parkways era, during Nashville "Urban Renewal" in the 1960s. This is when James Robertson Parkway bulldozed its way through downtown, crossed the river and terminated at the entrance to Ellington Parkway. 

With the addition of I24 in 1970, the huge spaghetti intersection was born. It takes up about as much space as the central business district.

 

US-31E was the federal highway designation for Gallatin Road until relatively recent history.  The engineering of Ellington was planned in the late 1950s, just as had been I-40/24/65.  Segments of each had been under construction in stages (of course) since the early 1960s, particularly with a portion of I-40  being completed east of and to the border of downtown by 1961 (then terminating at what used to be Wharf Ave. [now Charles Davis Blvd.]); and the urban portion of I-65 spanning from the Melrose McDonald's to North First Street / Dickerson Road.  Construction of Ellington had been well underway by the late 1960s (particularly 1967+).  Only in recent decades was the US-31E designation changed from Main St. - Gallatin of East Nashville to align with Ellington Parkway, probably not until after Briley Parkway "north" had been finally completed during the 1980s,  to allow the numbered route to run concurrent with both completed parkways before returning to the Gallatin Rd. thoroughfare in Madison.

 

On 12/1/2020 at 3:45 PM, smeagolsfree said:

Sure would like to hang the fellow or fellows that got rid of our street cars. They didnt know what they were doing at the time.

Well, they did know what they were doing, but Nashville fell victim to it before many other cities, a number of which were able to hold on to their streetcars or trolley-buses into the 1950s and even mid-to-late '60s.  It was a confluence of private ownership politics, financial exigency, and surreptitious motives by big players, beginning in the 1920s.  Memphis held onto its original overhead electric until 1960.

 

On 12/2/2020 at 9:44 AM, nashvylle said:

Were cars able to drive over and on the rails at that time? if yes, imagine what Nashville would be if we just decommissioned the streetcars back then instead of also removing the rails

The very reason they were (are) called "streetcars" (rather than just the name trolley, a term of synecdoche from the actual overhead electrical pick-up shoe).  By definition of mode, streetcars did and still do run in mixed traffic, while also sometimes being assigned dedicated lanes (e.g. SFMTA "Muni" and Boston MBTA streetcar lines converted to light-rail).  Some streetcar lines like the former Shaker Heights Rapid Transit ran on mostly dedicated right-of-way in boulevard medians.

 

On 12/2/2020 at 10:02 AM, smeagolsfree said:

Yes, I think the cars were able to drive in the same lanes and along the tracks.

Many of the rails were taken up for scrap during the war effort, but a lot still remain.

Yes, they remain beneath the thick sub-grade of Belmont Blvd between Portland and Gale.  Occasionally they "pop" up elsewhere, such as along upper Jefferson Street (near 27th Ave.).  Around the time I got my driver's license (1967) many segments of street rail were still exposed downtown before being removed.  I specifically recall a sweeping curved section at 8th Ave (Spruce St.) and B'way.  It had full girder (flanged) rail and cobblestone exposed in the pavement.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by rookzie

[markhollin]

6 hours ago, rookzie said:

 

US-31E was the federal highway designation for Gallatin Road until relatively recent history.  The engineering of Ellington was planned in the late 1950s, just as been I-40/24/65.  Segments of each had been under construction in stages (of course) since the early 1960s, particularly with a portion of I-40  being completed east and to the border of downtown by 1961 (then terminating at what used to be Wharf Ave [now Charles Davis Blvd.]); and the urban portion of I-65 spanning from the Melrose McDonald's to North First Street / Dickerson Road.  Construction of Ellington had been well underway by the late 1960s (particularly 1967+).  Only in recent decades was the US-31E designation changed from Main St. to align with Ellington Parkway, probably not until Briley Parkway "north" had been finally completed during the 1980s,  to allow the numbered route to run concurrent with both completed parkways before returning to the Gallatin Rd. thoroughfare in Madison.

 

Well, they did know what they were doing, but Nashville fell victim to it before many other cities, a number of which were able to hold on to their streetcars or trolley-buses into the 1950s and even mid-to-late '60s.  It was a confluence of private ownership politics, financial exigency, and surreptitious motives by big players, beginning in the 1920s.  Memphis held onto its original overhead electric until 1960.

 

Excellent post, Rookzie.  You are a font of knowledge that I hope we never take for granted.  : )

[MLBrumby]

On 11/19/2020 at 8:46 PM, donNdonelson2 said:

Houston just saw a major transportation project opening, 10.3 miles of new toll lanes that were added to highway 288, a major route out of the city into Brazoria County toward Lake Jackson. The Houston area toll roads include Beltway 8 Tollway that circles the city, the Hardy Toll Road running north, roughly parallel to I-45, the Fort Bend Tollway that serves the southwest quadrant out into Fort Bend County, and toll lanes on I-10 west toward Katy, the Westpark Tollway, and the Grand Parkway (a partial ring road).

No state is better than Texas when it comes to building new roads and doing that in a reasonably quick manner. Puts TDOT with their endless studies and pay-as-you-go approach which keeps projects languishing for decades. I think it seems they take forever to give the politicians time to buy all the surrounding property.

[smeagolsfree]

The politicians in this state are deathly afraid of those two words... Toll Roads. Even though the concept is approved, no one has had the guts to allow one to be built in this state.

I wish they would charge people to drive in the HOV lanes. You do it by camera and anyone caught in the lane during those hours of volume would be sent a bill. That would show the snobs driving in from Rutherford, Wilson, and Williamson Counties that they are not too good to pay. 

It is done in Atlanta and Charlotte along with countless other cities, but I wish the as I have said before those lanes would be taken away and replaced with rail. Then they would either be forced to drive like the regular Joe Schmo in traffic or take mass transit.

[nashvylle]

7 hours ago, rookzie said:

Yes, they remain beneath the thick sub-grade of Belmont Blvd between Portland and Gale.  Occasionally they "pop" up elsewhere, such as along upper Jefferson Street (near 27th Ave.).  Around the time I got my driver's license (1967) many segments of street rail were still exposed downtown before being removed.  I specifically recall a sweeping curved section at 8th Ave (Spruce St.) and B'way.  It had full girder (flanged) rail and cobblestone exposed in the pavement.

Would it be possible via minor digging to uncover these tracks and have some streetcars in Belmont/Jefferson as a test?

[rookzie]

4 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Would it be possible via minor digging to uncover these tracks and have some streetcars in Belmont/Jefferson as a test?

I'm afraid not ─ not even close.

The track, which has been in disuse for 80 years, has assumed a state far beyond repair.  Even "preserved"(as it were) from direct exposure to the surface, the rails no longer would be in gauge, due to the natural decay of the wooden ties and the advanced state of corrosion of the gauge rods, anchors, joint bars and bolts that secure the rails and maintain the track geometry.  Most likely the rails themselves are broken in a number of places and have also fallen victim to "cancerous" pitting  from severe corrosion, not to mention the metallurgical defects which have developed throughout the rails.

In the case of the Belmont Blvd tracks, which formed an inbound and outbound pair (ending in a stub and crossover at the southern end), the tracks physically are buried well below the current surface level, after intentional regrading of the roadbed and utility upgrades.  I recall somewhere on this thread years ago that I mentioned having observed both tracks exposed in a street backhoe excavation to replace a gas line.  The Jefferson St. tracks were seen much closer to the existing surface, but most (if not all) were removed within the last 15 years during a major street makeover, likely because the tracks adversely affected the stability of the roadbed between resurfacings.

Edited December 10, 2020 by rookzie

[Nicholson]

On 12/9/2020 at 7:06 AM, nashvylle said:

Not a good reception from budget committee

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2020/12/09/nashville-mayor-john-coopers-transit-plan-gutted-council-members/6500392002/

This Tennessean headline is very misleading, even though the article itself seems pretty on point. Nowhere in the article does it describe Councilmembers "gutting" the transportation plan. It's been remedied somewhat by an edited headline - now when you click the link, the word "Gutted" has been replaced with with "Slammed."

I guess a headline reading "Council Voices Legitimate Concerns" doesn't pack much of a punch.

It's true the plan does rely heavily on "opportunistic finding" such as grants, but with the city's budget issues being what they are, the immediate options seem pretty limited. Nashville is one of the only metroplitan areas without dedicated fuding for transit. Whenever we finally get around to approving that, it will help the city's annual budget process, because transit will not be competing with schools, police, etc for funding.

In the current Transportation Plan, there is a proposal to seek dedicated funding for transit some time between 2023 and 2026. This is on a timeline image on page 157. By the time 2023 rolls around, and there's another movement towards dedicated fiunding, we will hopefully have the pandemic in the rearview mirror, and we'll have an even better idea of what the city needs transportation-wise.

In the meantime, the Metro Council should have time to continue contributing feedback to make the plan better, and it looks like that is becoming the case. The best response to the plan that I've seen is from Walk/Bike Nashville, so here's a link to that:

https://www.walkbikenashville.org/mayor_cooper_s_transportation_plan

A few highlights:

1. Equity and Meaningful Community Engagement. Equity should be embedded in the prioritization and selection of projects in a way that is transparent to everyone. As the plan is written now, we have concerns about how and if equity will be central to the selection and implementation of projects. In its current iteration, the plan is so broad most community members cannot give meaningful feedback that is specific to their experiences. 
2. Departmental Staffing Levels. Staffing levels at departments responsible for transportation, especially at Metro Public Works and Metro Planning, are at all time low.
3. Goals with Measurable Outcomes, Timelines and Funding. 
   While we applaud the broad goals included in the plan; the plan lacks specific measurable outcomes that will help us understand progress toward those goals. Without a funding plan with identified dedicated revenue sources, we have real doubts about how elements of this plan will ever move forward.

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Nicholson

[Rockatansky]

On 11/30/2020 at 12:50 PM, smeagolsfree said:

nashvylle

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Posted 49 minutes ago

THIS IS IN RESPONSE TO A POST ON ANOTHER THREAD.

  2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

a  massive revamp of the inner interstate loop.

What does this mean, exactly? 

It is a travesty in its current form and function and has to be fixed. It is pretty much the same design it was when it was built back in the 50s with a few improvements here and there. Basically it is the south loop that has to be fixed along with all of the interstate bridges that are too short, too narrow and are of a bad design. 

One way to fix this is to double deck the interstate on the south loop with through traffic either above or below with no exits. This would include all truck traffic. Revamp truckers curve, the scene of so many wrecks due to bad design as well.

All interstate interchanges need to be overhauled so there is no crisscrossing of traffic. It is confusing, dangerous and the person that came up with the design should be hung in effigy. The best example is below.

Another element would be to fix the Cluster that is the stretch that runs from the I24/40 spilt east of town into and out of downtown.  You have two major interstates that have just under two mile to switch from two lanes over to the other two lanes. What were they thinking?  

Some of that could be fixed if they rerouted I 24 onto Briley, eight lane the portion between  the current I 24 to the current 8 lane section of Briley, then extending Briley to continue at the current I 24 SE of the current I 24 - 40 split. Then all of the I 24 traffic through downtown is eliminated.

I'd rather we spent the money on transit.

[smeagolsfree]

Me too, however I don't think it will happen in my lifetime now. Nashville will continue to fall behind other cities as far as mass transit goes because we do not and have not had an HONORABLE  mayor with any sense and courage to come up with a plan that is both good and phased in.

The current may wants to put a band-aide on a severed limb and the previous mayor wanted to throw all the eggs into a glass basket at one time and drop from a 30 story building to see if it would break. The mayor before that tried to sneak a plan through with out any consultation or public input. A behind the doors plan so to speak.

Metro has spent so much money on plans and studies they could have funded the first leg of a rail system somewhere,

My guess as I have said before is Cooper is a one term mayor as folks are really upset about the tax increase and still a lack of transparency in spending. He was still trying to spend money  they didnt have on the park in Bells Bend.

[MLBrumby]

Wonder if Freddie O'Connell would have the credibility to usher in a new mass transit plan.