The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[PruneTracy]

Just to expand on the engineering side of it.

The main issue from an alignment perspective is clearance over the CSX tracks. It's currently substandard; CSX wants 23 feet from the top of rail for double-stack operations and the existing bridge gives between 19'-6" and 21'-3". The problem is that the tie-in points for the bridge (the parking lot next to the gas station and the emergency exit at Union Station) won't allow you to hump the bridge enough over the tracks even with a 30 MPH design speed. So the options are either to use shallower beams and shorter spans (necessitating a pier between tracks, which in turn requires crash walls from the lack of horizontal clearance) or use a truss, tied arch, or similar structural treatment to reduce the substructure depth.

Another sticky point is the ROW. CSX owns theirs, of course, but the question is who owns the storage area under the bridge formerly used by the Tennessean as well as the area under/next to Union Station (where Nashville Yards is building the park). The bridge could be made a lot shorter and easier to build (i.e., it wouldn't require closure for as long) if these areas were filled in prior to the replacement, similar to how the space between Clinton Street and CSX under the I-40/I-65 viaduct was filled in (converting two long bridge replacements into four much shorter bridge replacements) during the FastFix 8 project. It would also help with ABC construction as these areas, if not filled in, may require bridge segments to be slid in longitudinally, which is a pain to stage. But TDOT may not have clear title to these areas.

The project would also be simplified dramatically if CSX would give some direction regarding their potential sale of Kayne Avenue Yard and which tracks they want to keep, but we may as well ask the sun not to shine.

As noted in the article, Metro asked TDOT for wider sidewalks/FZs as well as landscaping and aesthetic improvements. I already noted the issues with the sidewalks and they will probably not get much more than TDOT's classic bridge rail (get ready for tri-star emblems) and locations for Metro-maintained lighting. There is a TWLTL in the middle of the bridge that's obviously of limited utility, but the problem again if you were to eliminate the TWLTL is that the constraints and design speed won't allow you to taper the lanes to the inside and back quickly enough to take advantage of the width. Plus that would look goofy. So the typical section is, if not set in stone, then perhaps a soft stone or plaster.

Everything else is pretty meh in terms of constructability. It's a cramped site, not a big deal. There are a lot of utilities, known and unknown, it happens. There's a historic site as well as several high-profile developments all around, just needs more coordination. And of course it's the gateway into downtown Nashville, not some side street. This is a CM/GC project, so it will be expensive to plan and will take some time before anyone sees any real action, but it also gives plenty of time to get a good sequence of construction together and iron out any issues, hopefully anyway.

[smeagolsfree]

I pulled up parcel viewer to answer your questions as far as ownership.

The smaller  highlighted area in is owned by Jim Caden and the larger area is owned by Highwoods.

[Bos2Nash]

On 2/21/2021 at 10:44 AM, PruneTracy said:

There is a TWLTL in the middle of the bridge that's obviously of limited utility, but the problem again if you were to eliminate the TWLTL is that the constraints and design speed won't allow you to taper the lanes to the inside and back quickly enough to take advantage of the width. Plus that would look goofy. So the typical section is, if not set in stone, then perhaps a soft stone or plaster.

Nothing worse than these useless - and dangerous - turn lanes!

[markhollin]

A resolution has been set forth for a bike lane to connect downtown and East Nashville.  Needs funding.
 

[Bos2Nash]

13 minutes ago, markhollin said:

A resolution has been set forth for a bike lane to connect downtown and East Nashville.  Needs funding.
 

Yahoo!! Let's be honest, this is the easiest and cheapest form of Mass Transit and should be an easy approval funding measure.

[BnaBreaker]

To be honest I'm pretty shocked that there isn't already one.

[smeagolsfree]

You saw it first on Urban Planet Twitter!

[bigeasy]

Wait, is there not a bike lane from downtown to East Nashville.? I could have sworn I rode on one during the Tour de Nash last year. 

[Nashvillain]

^ There are. There is a separated bike lane that runs the length of Davidson St. starting at Shelby Bottoms all the way to Nissan Stadium with access to the pedestrian bridge which takes you to SoBro. There's also technically a bike lane along KVB bridge but it's not separated from vehicle traffic so it's... a bit dangerous. The new proposed lane looks to be a direct route from 5-Points area to downtown. 

[markhollin]

Mayor Cooper's Dept. of Transportation idea faces hesitancy from Metro Council.

Cooper’s proposal to transfer garbage collection from the Department of Public Works to Metro Water Services and then rebrand public works as a new Department of Transportation is facing some pushback from the Metro Council, which at its Tuesday meeting decided to defer a decision on Cooper’s resolution.

More at the Nashville Post here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/metro-government/article/21146335/mayors-department-of-transportation-idea-faces-hesitancy

[smeagolsfree]

It’s just a waste of money rebranding something that already does not work.

[Rockatansky]

On 2/10/2021 at 3:12 PM, Bark At The Sun said:

Mt. Juliet Rd. Bridge Widening Project over I-40

Yay, more sprawl!

[Bos2Nash]

Jefferson/I-40 Interstate Cap is requesting funding to move forwards. 

From the Urban Land Institute:

Faye DiMassimo, Sr. Advisor for Transportation and Infrastructure for Mayor Cooper, will be submitting a funding application to the U.S. DoT to support a ‘cap’ over I-40 / Jefferson Street.

[PaulChinetti]

Hell yes, cap away!

[bnacincy]

3 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

Hell yes, cap away!

I wonder if it would be possible to extend the cap to Jefferson Street and tunnel I40 under Jefferson Street?  I don't think this project would really be complete unless something like that happens.

[henburg]

This is the least that our leaders can do to reverse the absolutely devastating effects that the construction of these interstates did to destroy local African American neighborhoods. I love the idea, and we need way more around the city.

[PaulChinetti]

I wonder how much it costs for a capping per foot (or whatever measurement you would use). 

[Bark At The Sun]

6 hours ago, Rockatansky said:

Yay, more sprawl!

I like that word.   This Manitowoc 222 Crawler Crane was mobilized on site this week.  It should sprawl nicely to set the beams for this bridge widening project.   Thanks!

[donNdonelson2]

The extra lanes on that bridge will help to lessen the painful gridlock at that location during big chunks of time nearly every day. Lots fewer fumes from vehicles sitting there stuck in traffic, and less wasted fuel, too. Growth in the area is inevitable and infrastructure upgrades are better done now than later. I’m fully supportive of this project!

Edited March 6, 2021 by donNdonelson2

[markhollin]

Covid-19 pandemic erased Nashville's commute congestion.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2021/03/09/inrix-traffic-scorecard-nashville-pandemic.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_34&cx_artPos=0#cxrecs_s

[nashvylle]

2 hours ago, markhollin said:

Covid-19 pandemic erased Nashville's commute congestion.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2021/03/09/inrix-traffic-scorecard-nashville-pandemic.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_34&cx_artPos=0#cxrecs_s

Stop AMP was right! our traffic woes would resolve on their own. 

[rookzie]

21 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Stop AMP was right! our traffic woes would resolve on their own. 

I immediately KNEW he was a REAL sicko when I read that headline.

[MLBrumby]

12 minutes ago, rookzie said:

I immediately KNEW he was a REAL sicko when I read that headline.

Hey Rookzie, do you have any opinion on whether the CSX tracks through the heart of downtown would/could make a great 'core' for a rail system with stops through town? I don't know much about the eastern leg that stretches from the junction at (what is now) Capitol View, but this is all in the possible move that (rumored) CSX is studying to build a replacement for Radnor Yards somewhere to the south of Nashville. 

[rookzie]

53 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Hey Rookzie, do you have any opinion on whether the CSX tracks through the heart of downtown would/could make a great 'core' for a rail system with stops through town? I don't know much about the eastern leg that stretches from the junction at (what is now) Capitol View, but this is all in the possible move that (rumored) CSX is studying to build a replacement for Radnor Yards somewhere to the south of Nashville. 

I'd have to take a chunk of time to formulate and "draft" an updated response to the Radnor relocation concept.  In the meantime I copy here what I posted on that issue in July 2016:

________________

 

On 7/5/2016 at 7:31 PM, rookzie said:

I'm actually a bit unresolved to think that a clear and conclusive solution lies with the goal of relocating Radnor within Middle Tenn.  Until I can hear or read about some well-defined rationale in a plan to handle the geographic movements of main-line freights through the area as a whole, then I really am not convinced of any real resolution with such a move.

Yes, Radnor itself would be gone, but that in and of itself does nothing to divert these movements passing through the city from the several railway sub-divisions ─ West, NNW, NNE, SE and South ─ spoking into CSXT Nashville Terminal, which includes Radnor.  Not all the movements passing through the city pass through Radnor, and in fact many bypass Radnor, so I don’t quite buy TDOT’s argument with Joffrion’s statement of the purported benefit of relocating Radnor for that purpose.  Nissan is not the only bread and butter in the region for CSXT, as there also is GM as well, in Spring Hill, on the S&NA (North and South Alabama Sub-Division).  Logistically, the freights on these various main-lines cannot be easily diverted around Nashville, without some major infrastructure addition or without some disadvantage to the carrier incurred with circuitous re-routing to bypass the city as, the tracks are now established, and nearly all these (if not actually all) routes provide a remote interchange point for freights with other lines (Memphis, Birmingham, Cincinnati, Louisville, Chicago, Chatta,...)

And this is only an aside from the mention of long-term "environmental" impact on the concentration of activities on the West- and East Banks of downtown (which pale in comparison to the around-the-clock activity of Radnor). Then there's the Cockrill Bend Industrial complex, which is no small operation.  All this customer base collectively constitutes rail activity which requires the classification procedures handled by a facility like Radnor, where freight cars to and from a major classification yard must be handled by local switching.  If they want to do away with Radnor, then they also need to deal with Kayne Ave in the Gulch, since Kayne is the primary staging point for local switching in the districts just mentioned, an intermediate point of handling for locally confined movements of cars to and from Radnor as the “final-“or “initial- terminal” break-up or assimilation of main-line trains.  To relocate Radnor, say, to Rutherford Co., would mean higher tariff rates to local customers for drayage and car spotting along stub spurs.  This could ramify favorably with the result of a CSXT election to abandon these local districts and with a takeover purchase by a regional short-line, such as the passenger-friendly Nashville and Eastern RR.

My point is that relocation of a major railroad facility as Radnor affects collaterally the remaining brick-and-mortar mercantile operations, which the city seems totally oblivious to within its own backyard.  The CSXT couldn’t really care less about the calculable effects on local business in Davidson Co., since it cares most about its lucrative mineral- and intermodal (containerized) movements. I’d be all for re-purposing Radnor, but not without a more comprehensive analysis of collateral ramifications on the local industrial eco-system, and TDOT and other proposal makers need to re-scope they vision, if they’re entertaining the concept with such a huge order of magnitude in funding.

 

 

In theory, the CSXT lines that radiate from the city (excluding the Radnor Cutoff bypass, Englewood to Radnor via Shelby Bottoms), *could* comprise an excellent framework for each of the long proposed corridors along those routes.  I also made previous mention long ago of a glaring, missed window of opportunity to coordinate redevelopment plans in the Gulch with commuter rail and or rapid transit.  Compared to commuter rail, light rail terminal in the Gulch might have been potentially the only viable consideration in the 2000s and the early 2010s, because such a network could have been planned and incrementally built, as CSX continued to sell off much of its industrial real estate back then.

But any ability to utilize existing rail RoW for either dedicated urban or "interurban" (commuter) rail virtually has remained unchanged now since that period, due to the enormous cost of funding infrastructure that would be acceptable to CSX, the city, and the Mid-State as a whole.  IMHO there simply isn't sufficient redundancy in CSX's divisions and sub-divisions which pass through this region.  That's a huge logistics constrain in its own right, let alone terminal interchange at Radnor or a relocation of such an operation within the Mid-State.  That redundancy existed along the Lower Great Lakes border and the Atlantic Seaboard regions, to the extent that much of it either was abandoned or more favorably approved for repurposing under concerted and consortial agreements by state governments and local agencies, such as with Virginia and Florida.

In summary, a lack of rail-route redundancy in this area, in conjunction with topographical constraints, and a relocation of Radnor seem to make highly unlikely the probability of transforming the city rail into a core system of regional travel.

[MagicPotato]

I always wondered why didn't  Wilson county  grow nearly as much as Williamson, Montgomery, and Rutherford county.  The land is pretty flat,  close distance from Nashville ,  and the Music City Star is located there.  I don't know but if I had a real estate business that area would be a prime location. Wouldn't it just be simple as to build out the areas near the train stations?