The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[jmtunafish]

Anyone who's driven on I-40 has undoubtedly noticed the huge increase in traffic, both cars and trucks, particularly between Nashville and Knoxville.  In my ideal world there would be passenger and freight rail parallel to I-40 from Memphis to Knoxville and then up to the Tri Cities to connect in Virginia with the Amtrak line to DC.

[nashvylle]

I’ll just say any high speed rail line from Nashville to anywhere, even if it’s final destination was Murfreesboro, I’d consider it a success. 

[rookzie]

All Yinz got me dreaming as if I'm still in my train riding mode back in the 1950s and '60s, when peeps  still dressed up to travel on trains, and trains still went to just about anywhere ─ everywhere you've mentioned so far ─ and THEN some.

The main idea behind the Amtrak rationale is not to emphasize L-D (long-distance)  routes, as it was during my day, but rather "corridors" of medium-distance travel. Nashville –Louisville and points north there seem intuitive (which indeed they are, even to me), As for Nashville to Chattanooga, the infrastructure really isn’t’ suitable for passenger trains ─ not to say that it can’t be made suitable.  There are several missing segments NOT on  that map but that are missed opportunities. For example, the gap between Nashville and Louisville means Chicagoians need to go through New Orleans and Atlanta to get to Nashville. A direct route to Atlanta is needed.

Neither Amtrak nor the half-baked (at best) proposals for suburban service southeast of Nashville is going to happen, without some momentous political will, but overall, it must be undertaken in steps.  With Chattanooga being so close to ATL, and with the existing US-41 and I-75 corridors, Chattanooga to Atlanta is a given.  Nashville sits where it is in the dead middle like a giant nimbus of ever-building “imbalance”, just waiting to discharge like a gigantic strike of lightning to connect to the existing passenger network, in a path of least resistance.  That’s why Nashville needs to piggyback onto a Chatta-ATL route as one and the same, rather than in part.  Interstate 24 is a parking lot, to preach to the choir.

This is 2021, not 1971, which literally was half a century ago, and the year we unceremoniously lost the remaining vestige of service to ATL (StL-ATL).  There are many reasons why Las Vegas, Nashville, Phoenix and Columbus have no passenger trains. One of the reasons is that the rail network has changed over the last fifty years.  The tracks which were in place in 1970-1971 have in many cases been downgraded  from passenger standards, or have been removed entirely, as what CSX did west of Nashville, IL between the podunks of Okawville and Rentchler/Belleville IL, about 22 years after that entire ATL-Nashville-St.Louis passenger service was cancelled.  The severing of that relatively straight route further reduced the national infrastructure.  In other cases, freight traffic has increased and/or runs slower.  Most of what had been main-line double-tracked during the 1960s, long has been reduced to single track.  Most of the national network evolution into the current “Precision Scheduling Railroading (PSR) freight mode began with the Carter administration, and systematic mega-mergers of railroads have only solidified that trend, while rendering parallel routes among former competing lines redundant and ripe for elimination.  So currently there’s no room for expansion by merely sticking on a passenger train in the middle of existing traffic-control, as if it were a bus on a highway.

Passenger rail doesn’t need to be true HSR (High Speed Rail) by golden definition to be effective, but it does need to be at least classified as “HigheER Speed” (90-125 MPH), consistent and reliable, as well as to serve with a frequency of no less than Twice Daily (not like the convenience store of the same name).  This is the reason I say that medium corridors is the way to proceed with the state of the nation, as it is now.    Medium-distance corridor proposals reflect a real effort to try to think about what kinds of routes could attract reasonable ridership instead of just drawing lines everywhere.   I consider medium-distance as too long to drive, too short to fly (with exceptions).  The lack of reliable funding for passenger rail capital projects and operations is one obstacle to rail planning, as some states (I know of 1 for sure, with 2 neighbors to the north) may not wish to invest time and resources into a plan that may not be achievable without additional federal support.

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by rookzie

[MLBrumby]

Rookzie! Please send a letter to the Congressional bump on the log, Jim Cooper. 

[markhollin]

14 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Rookzie! Please send a letter to the Congressional bump on the log, Jim Cooper. 

I don't understand why you are harping on Jim Cooper---these proposals just came out in the past week for this massive Infrastructure Bill concept, and then this series of Amtrak upgrades.  How on earth could he possibly be addressing all sorts of details on such a sweeping initial concepts?   Geesh.  

That being said, I think it is a good idea for Rookzie and anyone else with train expertise to reach out and offer historical perspective and advice on how to make Nashville a potential passenger train destination again, whether conventional, or (fingers crossed) high speed rail.  : )

[smeagolsfree]

I agree with Rookzie’s interpretation of all of this. The speed needs to be higher and it needs to connect with points north. That is pretty much my thinking as well.

Rookzie knows his stuff and if he says the rail infrastructure is not there, then it will be hard to do. Again, I will harp on this as I have done in the past. The Federal Gov. already has huge right of ways along the interstate systems. Why do they not just use those corridors and lay track there.

It seems the biggest outlay of cash is getting right of ways and buying land for these projects. I think the federal government is so blinded by politics now because they have to make sure it is the biggest and most costly way to do something because they have to make sure the companies that donate to them are hired to do the work. Folks it is not the left doing this it is the right as well. So lets not get into some political discussion.

I am just fed up with all of them, because they do not know what keep it simple is any longer, if they ever did.

 

[MLBrumby]

59 minutes ago, markhollin said:

I don't understand why you are harping on Jim Cooper---these proposals just came out in the past week for this massive Infrastructure Bill concept, and then this series of Amtrak upgrades.  How on earth could he possibly be addressing all sorts of details on such a sweeping initial concepts?   Geesh.  

That being said, I think it is a good idea for Rookzie and anyone else with train expertise to reach out and offer historical perspective and advice on how to make Nashville a potential passenger train destination again, whether conventional, or (fingers crossed) high speed rail.  : )

Simply put, I think Cooper is a lame representative from anywhere, especially when it comes to a city/region that I plan to relocate to at some point.  My comments here about the several times I've met him appear throughout this forum. I won't state them again. But beyond the personal, I don't think he represents his district well. It took him more than 15 years to land funding for what (at the time) was the top federal courthouse priority by the GSA, then the priority was bumped down with his party in charge of the House while several cities leapfrogged over Nashville with funding for their courthouses. There was a Tennessean article from sometime around 2014 (I don't care to go back & dig it out) on the subject of how long the CH had taken, still unfunded at that point.  I remember a quote when the writer asked why it had taken fifteen years, and he said, "I don't know."  That sums it up.  He's just blah and not very smart.  Yes, he's Harvard, but what son of a governor can't get into Harvard?  I've engaged him on a number of subjects in law and healthcare in which he was supposed to be an expert, and he just has no imagination. He's a seat-warmer (very ordinary).  Nashville can do a lot better, but that will never happen. He's never challenged. 

[markhollin]

52 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Simply put, I think Cooper is a lame representative from anywhere, especially when it comes to a city/region that I plan to relocate to at some point.  My comments here about the several times I've met him appear throughout this forum. I won't state them again. But beyond the personal, I don't think he represents his district well. It took him more than 15 years to land funding for what (at the time) was the top federal courthouse priority by the GSA, then the priority was bumped down with his party in charge of the House while several cities leapfrogged over Nashville with funding for their courthouses. There was a Tennessean article from sometime around 2014 (I don't care to go back & dig it out) on the subject of how long the CH had taken, still unfunded at that point.  I remember a quote when the writer asked why it had taken fifteen years, and he said, "I don't know."  That sums it up.  He's just blah and not very smart.  Yes, he's Harvard, but what son of a governor can't get into Harvard?  I've engaged him on a number of subjects in law and healthcare in which he was supposed to be an expert, and he just has no imagination. He's a seat-warmer (very ordinary).  Nashville can do a lot better, but that will never happen. He's never challenged. 

Well, as I've stated before, your opinions are not shared by the vast majority here in his district.  He's known as a policy wonk who is quite well versed on many issues.  He definitely is a "blue dog Democrat" who watches budget expenditures more than most.  I know of various cases both large and small where he acted decisively in helping  situations get resolved quickly for individuals as well as significant segments of the population. I've met with him most likely more than you have, with longer conversations, and simply don't see the characteristics you repeatedly bring up here.

Let's just end it at that.

[MLBrumby]

Would love for you to share... please!

[Nicholson]

On 4/1/2021 at 1:34 AM, BnaBreaker said:

That's what I thought too.  I'm thrilled that they thought to (finally) include us in their expansion plans, but I'm afraid any service might be borderline useless if it doesn't provide Nashvillians with access to the Midwest and East Coast as well.  I mean, Atlanta is nice and all... but we deserve more than to be just some isolated (as Amtrak routes go) secondary outpost of Atlanta.

Tennessean coverage of the Amtrak proposal: 

'OMG': Amtrak service from Nashville to Atlanta is now in Biden's transportation plan, too

Daniella Medina

Nashville Tennessean

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2021/04/01/amtrak-nashville-routes-atlanta-biden-transportation-plan/4839151001/?fbclid=IwAR0WutHaFyuRvXQTfx2azfCUTdzH9ia-BZ5DTQOs8HQttXDeO7dPhOhwIMg

 

Here's an article they did from a year ago that includes a poll for which route people want the most:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2020/01/15/where-would-you-want-amtrak-routes-nashville-take-you/4480828002/

 

 

[smeagolsfree]

So what moron came up with the idea of Amtrak to Atlanta when a majority of people clearly want Chicago. I wonder where other is too?  Nashville suburbs screams commuter rail for Nashville and not Amtrak. That is sort of a no brainer regional, and not federal issue.

My guess is that if this same poll were conducted today the numbers would be even more in favor of Chicago. As Nashville continues to grow, it seems our ties to the Windy City will increase. I see it in the number of developers and people moving here. They are not from Atlanta, but more from Chicago. I really think the ties to Atlanta will decrease as time passes.

[MLBrumby]

And the way the Tennessean article headlines it too is utterly silly.  "OMG"!!!!!!!   The Tennessean is the WORST 'newspaper' of any top 200 city in the USA. Just awful. 

To Ron's point, Tennessee is a magnet for Chicago transplants. We have total 30 houses on my street, and I don't know all the families. I do know 6 families who moved here from Chicagoland, 3 in the past year!  Saw several articles over the past year that Chicago/Illinois is the largest loser of population over the past decade. It accelerated during the pandemic. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by MLBrumby

[Nicholson]

It's pretty exciting that Nashville is getting on the Amtrak map, so I think the Tennessean was just capturing that positivity. 

Upcoming council vote could move Nashville's transit plan forward | Opinion

Burkley Allen

Guest columnist

 https://www.tennessean.com/story/opinion/2021/04/01/nashville-transit-plan-could-move-forward-metro-council-vote/4824624001/

A few highlights:

- Traffic is returning to its old miserable state, and will get worse, accelerating Nashville's need for mobility options.

- Tuesday, April 6 is the third and final reading of RS2021-794 A resolution approving a Memorandum of Understanding to transfer solid waste disposal responsibilities from the Department of Public Works to the Department of Water and Sewerage Services along with the related operational activities, personnel, and equipment. 

 

- This is a step towards Public Works having a stronger focus on the implementation of the Metro Transportation Plan.

 

For a palate cleanser, here's some funny memes:

 

       

^This one's from #NUMTOTS on Reddit                                                    ^This one's from @music****** on IG

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Nicholson
curse word on name of IG handle

[smeagolsfree]

The current transit plan is nothing more than lipstick on the ugliest pig you have ever seen. Sidewalks should be considered in a different bill altogether and treated as their own animal. They can spend a billion dollars on sidewalks and not even come close to fixing the problem. Granted its because its the entire county. A Metro form of govt. is a bit of a curse. 

[Rockatansky]

On 4/1/2021 at 12:32 AM, LA_TN said:

Would help if the Nashville line connected to Louisville to access Chicago.

^^^ This.

On 4/1/2021 at 4:55 PM, MLBrumby said:

So far my staff has calculated that around 7%

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/04/05/gop-claims-about-real-infrastructure-are-silly-why-are-media-playing-along/

[Nicholson]

7 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Sidewalks should be considered in a different bill altogether

We have to walk before we can run, but I definitely agree that transit should be the top priority of implementing the Transportation Plan. The community feedback stage of the plan said the same, with transit being everyone's top priority by far. I'd love to see a more ambitious plan too, but IMO, Nashville needs a higher capacity proof-of-concept first.

If we build a true Bust Rapid Transit corridor (not BRT-lite), along Murfreesboro Rd from downtown to the airport, as outlined in the Tansportation Plan, it could set the example for the city.

Here's a good Streetsblog article about building BRT faster using Tactical Urbanism: Bus Rapid Transit Should Be Built More Rapidly 

From the article:

• "...the perfect should not be the enemy of good, fast transit now."
• Cincinnati and Boston both built temporary, tactical-urbanism style, pilot BRT corridors that went on to become permanent.

Nashville's biggest obstacle to subastantial transit improvements is the lack of dedicated funding. We're the only city our size in the country that doesn't have this. Another attempt to have a rederendum for that might be 2024. Until then, there's a lot that can be done to improve the situation. 

 

[PaulChinetti]

49 minutes ago, Nicholson said:

 

• "...the perfect should not be the enemy of good, fast transit now."

 

I think that's a big problem, everyone wants a NYC/London style system in one fail swoop! Not gonna happen folks.

[Nashvillain]

Without getting into a whole thing, transit will fail without walkability at both legs of the journey. Sidewalks (or some serious traffic calming) are a critical piece of any transit infrastructure.

Just now, Nashvillain said:

Without getting into a whole thing, transit will fail without walkability at both legs of the journey. Sidewalks (or some serious traffic calming) are a critical piece of any transit infrastructure.

I should say, any successful transit infrastructure

[rookzie]

4 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

Without getting into a whole thing, transit will fail without walkability at both legs of the journey. Sidewalks (or some serious traffic calming) are a critical piece of any transit infrastructure.

I should say, any successful transit infrastructure

You're the one (at least one), who could effect a positive difference here.  I seem to have lost my window of opportunity with "aligning stars" of sidereal astrology.

So far in 30 years (maybe 40), the Mid-State has gone nowhere materially, except for a few hybrid-electric buses and a shiny set of rebuilt stainless-steel gallery coaches and locomotive sets.  At least transfers have remained free (for now).  Then too, some would beg to differ.

[smeagolsfree]

With the transit issue, you have to fix the core first. I agree sidewalks are important but when you don't even have a decent bus system, it's almost a mute point. The sidewalks on the main corridors have to be fixed where those main lines are, however those same buses are stuck in the same traffic as all the rest of the cars.

The biggest traffic issue is on the interstates during rush hour.

The transit fix should be done on a two front attack.

One is the local fix that Nashville needs to do and the main step would be to get folks around the core first. The second should be done by the State and Regional groups to bring in commuter rail into downtown. I am a firm believer that Nashville should not have to pay for that parts of this in Davidson County by its self as the people in the outlying counties are the ones causing a lot of the issues in the first place. Nashville's responsibility would be to get people around once they are here.

I will harp on this over and over. Put the commuter rail or light rail along the HOV lanes. They already own the land. Build the stations over the interstate. It is a logical most cost effective way to do it. You also are taking the HOV lanes away from the hobnobs and force them to, A) ride the train or, B) be stuck in traffic.

[nashvylle]

Two questions -

When will Congress vote on Biden's transportation plan?

If it passes, is there anything Tennessee legislatures can do to stop Amtrak service? 

[BnaBreaker]

14 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

Two questions -

When will Congress vote on Biden's transportation plan?

If it passes, is there anything Tennessee legislatures can do to stop Amtrak service? 

I don't know if there is any realistic way they could halt or reallocate that funding, but spending dedicated Amtrak funding on a six lane highway from Bucksnort to Snortbuck definitely seems on brand for the TN legislature.  Lol

[MontanaGuy]

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

I will harp on this over and over. Put the commuter rail or light rail along the HOV lanes. They already own the land. Build the stations over the interstate. It is a logical most cost effective way to do it. You also are taking the HOV lanes away from the hobnobs and force them to, A) ride the train or, B) be stuck in traffic.

The primary reason that commuters don't "ride the train" is simply because there isn't a train route that goes from where they live to where their final destination is and there never will be.  The only solution is to create an extensive park and ride system so that a commuter can at least get from their home to a reasonably close rail station that would use one of those HOV lanes (that's an excellent idea by the way) that's been converted to a rail line and then to a point in the city center that's close to most of the businesses that people are commuting to.  At this point you'd have to have an efficient means of getting to your final destination and back again when you've finished work for the day which is no small task but it could be done.  I do get annoyed when people are always complaining that large numbers of people aren't using mass transit because it really doesn't exist except in a few places like NYC or Chicago.  Planners need to realize that a commuter needs to complete the entire trip from home to work in a reasonable amount of time and our cities with their sprawling suburbs were poorly designed in terms of mass transit but that's the reality that we're dealing with and and our plans need to consider that.  People commute for hours in heavy traffic everyday because they have no other alternative and I've lived in quite a few cities and have experienced it my entire working life.

[PaulChinetti]

Sounds like the entire MSA needs to band together. Form some hubs in the outer counties, then promote not sprawl development there. Have everything build up around a hub, that includes places for the outer suburbs to park so that they can take the train in. A hub and spoke system. 

Promote non- suburb development in the surrounding counties, straight up outlaw it in Davidson county, unless it involves thoughtful planning to integrate within the cities transportation plan, which would mean the city would actually need a plan... 

[21jump]

One idea worth considering locally if Nashville gets a line to Atlanta is to also utilize the tracks for a commuter rail into the city from Murfreesboro. 

Here in San Diego, we have the Pacific Surfliner, which has service to Los Angeles. I believe it is the busiest route for AMTRAC outside of the Northeast Corridor. On the same line, we have the Coaster which is heavy rail commuter service on the same line to Oceanside. Oceanside is about the same size as Murfreesboro (maybe a little smaller by now) and is about 40 miles from downtown San Diego. Both the Surfliner and Coaster were always packed during rush hour before the pandemic.  Unlike Murfreesboro, Oceanside has a pretty robust transit system for a suburb which includes a light rail line to a neighboring suburb.

I think something like that could be a small step towards a larger transit referendum in Middle Tennessee. As Paul said, the entire MSA needs to be on the same page and have one goal.