The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

Tennessee ranks 4th worst nationally in truck bottlenecks, and Nashville has 66% of them.

•  (13) Nashville: I-24/I-40 at I-440 (East)
• (35) Nashville: I-40 at I-65 (East)
•  (77) Nashville: I-65 at I-24
•  (88) Nashville: I-65 at SR 386

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2021/04/08/tennessee-ranks-fourth-in-truck-bottlenecks.html

[Luvemtall]

19 hours ago, markhollin said:

Tennessee ranks 4th worst nationally in truck bottlenecks, and Nashville has 66% of them.

•  (13) Nashville: I-24/I-40 at I-440 (East)
• (35) Nashville: I-40 at I-65 (East)
•  (77) Nashville: I-65 at I-24
•  (88) Nashville: I-65 at SR 386

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2021/04/08/tennessee-ranks-fourth-in-truck-bottlenecks.html

As a former professional driver ( 45 years , accident free) I can verify that. That whole mess of I-24 /I-40/ I-440 is a very sorry excuse of a interstate interchange, who ever designed that was either on drugs or just didn’t know what the hell they were doing! And Tdot engineers should be ashamed of themselves for even going along with it. They really need to redesign that whole thing, even if it means stacking and flyovers. No two interstates should merge and crisscross as these do. Plus they need to clear away ALL the damn rock outcropping to create better visibility to upcoming traffic conditions. This alone would eliminate half of Nashville’s traffic nightmare. Middle Tennessee is a huge logistical hub, and getting bigger . You are not going to reduce the amount of truck traffic no matter what public transit ever comes along, it’s only going to increase. I know a lot of people, don’t like to talk of more roads, but sometimes it’s necessary.

[MLBrumby]

TDOT apparently loves rock. I’m guessing they haven’t done a damn thing with the Fern Street overpass at i24/65 north of DT. That creates a bottleneck in both directions. 

[bnacincy]

2 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

As a former professional driver ( 45 years , accident free) I can verify that. That whole mess of I-24 /I-40/ I-440 is a very sorry excuse of a interstate interchange, who ever designed that was either on drugs or just didn’t know what the hell they were doing! And Tdot engineers should be ashamed of themselves for even going along with it. They really need to redesign that whole thing, even if it means stacking and flyovers. No two interstates should merge and crisscross as these do. Plus they need to clear away ALL the damn rock outcropping to create better visibility to upcoming traffic conditions. This alone would eliminate half of Nashville’s traffic nightmare. Middle Tennessee is a huge logistical hub, and getting bigger . You are not going to reduce the amount of truck traffic no matter what public transit ever comes along, it’s only going to increase. I know a lot of people, don’t like to talk of more roads, but sometimes it’s necessary.

I know it wouldn't be cheap or without controversy but Nashville really does need the 840 north loop.  It would not only give trucks a way around Nashville without coming into town but also give these new distribution centers (and the ones that already exist) a way out of Nashville without going through downtown.

It would result in a safer interstate system in Davidson County  and  also spur economic growth in places like Robertson and Cheatham Counties.

[Luvemtall]

1 minute ago, bnacincy said:

I know it wouldn't be cheap or without controversy but Nashville really does need the 840 north loop.  It would not only give trucks a way around Nashville without coming into town but also give these new distribution centers (and the ones that already exist) a way out of Nashville without going through downtown.

It would result in a safer interstate system in Davidson County  and  also spur economic growth in places like Robertson and Cheatham Counties.

Absolutely!!! It would be worth every penny spent. 

[tragenvol]

5 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

who ever designed that was either on drugs or just didn’t know what the hell they were doing! And Tdot engineers should be ashamed of themselves for even going along with it.

I think I read somewhere that GA Tech designed 440 or had input into its design; although, I'm not sure that is accurate..  BUT, it makes sense...RAMBLIN' WRECK!!!

On 4/1/2021 at 9:41 PM, jmtunafish said:

Anyone who's driven on I-40 has undoubtedly noticed the huge increase in traffic, both cars and trucks, particularly between Nashville and Knoxville.  

It can get quite congested...any and everyday.

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by tragenvol

[MidTenn1]

6 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

As a former professional driver ( 45 years , accident free) I can verify that. That whole mess of I-24 /I-40/ I-440 is a very sorry excuse of a interstate interchange, who ever designed that was either on drugs or just didn’t know what the hell they were doing! And Tdot engineers should be ashamed of themselves for even going along with it. They really need to redesign that whole thing, even if it means stacking and flyovers. No two interstates should merge and crisscross as these do. Plus they need to clear away ALL the damn rock outcropping to create better visibility to upcoming traffic conditions. This alone would eliminate half of Nashville’s traffic nightmare. Middle Tennessee is a huge logistical hub, and getting bigger . You are not going to reduce the amount of truck traffic no matter what public transit ever comes along, it’s only going to increase. I know a lot of people, don’t like to talk of more roads, but sometimes it’s necessary.

As a retired 30 year TDOT Engineer, I have some comments regarding this rant. First, I didn't know of any one in TDOT on drugs. They were a very straight-laced group of people who barely drank alcohol to my recollection. They were well educated, experienced and fiercely proud of their dedication to finding the best design solutions considering the myriad of limited budget funding for projects, environmental requirements and limitations, and mostly the complications of trying to build roads in a heated political and community activated environment. There is the oversight of the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) also which is the final arbiter of design and budget. And then there are planners. I was told by planners on a couple of occasions that road designers need to (paraphrasing) 'back off our (safety) standards to allow planners to realize their own design  ideas. That never happened in my shop. 

I was peripherally involved in this project and I remember the community involvement that necessitated some of the design decisions such as recessing it in a long cut (which followed and abandoned railroad thus making right-of-way  less expensive), limiting it to 4-lanes and designating it as '440 Parkway". And originally TDOT proposed that 440 on the East be extended all the way to I-40 which would have eliminated a lot of weaving and traffic in the I-24/40/440  corridor. But primarily, most design decisions that now we are forced to live with were made in the 60's when Nashville's metro population was about 460,000. There was on proposal by the planning firm, Clark and Rapauno from Chicago to build six lanes in each direction along I-24/65 on the East Bank (I saw the plans) but that was reduced to 2 lanes in each direction, again by the FHWA. Unfortunately, TDOT exists in a political environment and restrictions are placed on projects by politicians, activists and not so much by Professional Engineers.

 There is an somewhat informative article on Wikipedia that describes the planning and design of I-440.

That's all I have to say on this.

Edited April 8, 2021 by PHofKS

[Luvemtall]

Well then , I stand corrected. I guess it’s many factors that played out to give motorists that mess. Anyway and anyhow it came about, it needs to be addressed. It might have been adequate at that time back in the ‘60’s , but it’s barely usable now. As I said many time on different treads , the old Nashville is gone , time to start thinking like a big city and get the infrastructure fixed ASAP . 

[donNdonelson2]

PHofKS, would it be possible (and logical)  for Briley Parkway to be upgraded to interstate standards, with full limited access extended from I-40 (airport area) to I-24 southeast of town, so that all I-24 thru traffic could be routed away from downtown? That would surely offer some relief from the tangled mess that is the downtown loop!

[Luvemtall]

8 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

PHofKS, would it be possible (and logical)  for Briley Parkway to be upgraded to interstate standards, with full limited access extended from I-40 (airport area) to I-24 southeast of town, so that all I-24 thru traffic could be routed away from downtown? That would surely offer some relief from the tangled mess that is the downtown loop!

That’s a really good idea! That and bnacincy’s idea with I-840 north loop would both help tremendously.

[MidTenn1]

6 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

PHofKS, would it be possible (and logical)  for Briley Parkway to be upgraded to interstate standards, with full limited access extended from I-40 (airport area) to I-24 southeast of town, so that all I-24 thru traffic could be routed away from downtown? That would surely offer some relief from the tangled mess that is the downtown loop!

Absolutely! I suggested that on a few occasions. It wouldn't need too many upgrades. There is one place that has no shoulders near the junction with I-24, but otherwise, the grades and curves seem to be up to Interstate standards.  Designating it as an interstate would help reroute a significate amount of traffic off I-40 in my opinion. And it might persuade navigational devices to plan a different route over an Interstate 240 (?) .

[MLBrumby]

I think the problem with the Interstates through Nashville and the other larger cities in TN is that they were designed back in the 1950s/60s and a lot has been learned about efficient (volume) management since then. TDOT didn't stay ahead of volume and lessons learned.  Certainly there's been a huge increase in the amount of traffic they were designed to support, and for some time TDOT simply added a lane, even where it cut into/removed a shoulder.  The cheap way!  Other than that, there hasn't been any significant redesign of the original routes, with a few exceptions.  Why doesn't Chattanooga have a bypass of some sort (sure, mountains are an issue but they're not impossible to surmount)?  I grew up in a city that completely revamped its freeway system when it was barely 30 years old, but I think Atlanta's example is unique. Plus, the GDOT has the ability to issue debt. I think it's stupid that TDOT can't do the same... even with reasonable limitations.  So over the past 60 years, TDOT could have been more proactive in their upgrading of highways (increasing capacity and improving routes) instead of building superhighways to 'nowhere'.  TDOT and state leadership gets props for a few notable projects, including the widening of I-240 around Memphis (and choosing not to slice through the city)... although that took about three decades to effectuate;  the revamping (minimal reroute) of I-24 eastbound on the south of Monteagle Mtn.;  State Route 111 from Chattanooga to the KY line via Cookeville (but in TDOT fashion that hasn't been completed);  Completion of Briley Pkwy around the north side of Nashville;  Pellissippi Parkway west of Knoxville;  Completion of I-840 south of the Nashville MSA (although abandoning it north of the MSA is  a huge miss);  Upgrading of US-64 along the southern section of the state (but once again, some debt financing would have helped this get completed much sooner).  Having said all of the above, the crowning jewel of TDOT was joining with NC to build the Charohala Parkway!  That doesn't necessarily abet capacity, but it's one of the most beautiful scenic parkways in the world. 

Then there are the familiar BIG MISSES! 

Neglecting widening of I-24 south/east of Murfreesboro. There are so many bottlenecks along this route that it's not funny. The worst one is at the I-24/59 junction in Georgia. Apparently this is in planning by TDOT/GDOT with the IMPROVE act, but I haven't seen a damn thing about this in three years in local media.  Then there's not building a continuation of I-75 from the junction of I-40 west of Knoxville to I-75 north of the city;  The aforementioned Fern Street underpass of I-24/65 north of Nashville; the woeful lack of any effort to expand capacity of I-75 between Chattanooga and Knoxville (one of the most travelled segments of interstate highway in the country).  PHofKS described several boneheaded moves by TDOT with the selection of cement for I-440 and not connecting over to I-40 and Briley Pkwy.  And why hasn't anything been done about the junction from I-24 over the Silliman Evans bridge to cater to traffic going south on I-65?  That's the cause of 90% of the slowdown from I-40 into downtown.  Then there are several projects that could have been completed much sooner if TDOT could issue some debt. I noted a few above (Rt 64; Rt. 111; various widening projects)... and why hasn't TN153 been made a limited access flyover from the Tennessee River to US27 north of Chattanooga?  That would open up the whole depressed southeastern Sequatchie Valley up to development.  Then of course, there's the shameful lack of widening I-65 north of Nashville to the KY line. Really!?  

Edited April 9, 2021 by MLBrumby

[KJHburg]

I absolutely think you need to complete I-840 to I-65 north of the city.  Major truck traffic heads from the Midwest down I-65 then southeast  to towards Atlanta and Florida via I-24.  Make that the through truck route a new section of I-840.   I know someone said there is a lot of rock but it can be done.  The convergence of 3 interstate highways downtown is the problem as you know.  You are forced to go through downtown to head to out of town.  Charlotte had this problem at one time and now we have a 67 mile beltway and most through truck traffic uses this route I-485 dittos for Atlanta of course on I-285. You need to get that through traffic of I-65 heading south or southeast to Atlanta out of downtown.  I do think a complete rebuild on the downtown interstates needs to be done as well.  The way the interstates split off like a Y is problematic and I have seen (and I know y'all do) last minute lane changes that cause slowdowns and backups.   

I heading your way next week will experience this again myself.  Your city has grown up it is time to build some more big highways (and some transit of course)  From what I have seen ,Nashville is the golden cow of the state of Tennessee the fastest growing city and generating the most jobs.  The state needs to dedicate more dollars to your metro area. 

 

[LA_TN]

I-840 North was killed because of the environmental impact of the southern half. In particular, that one stream with the endangered one-eyed snail darter (or something like that). That was the huge delay in completing the southern half. But that is the main reason the northern half was canceled.  Environmental impact was going to push costs too high

It was decided to be cheaper to upgrade Hwy 109 vs build the Lebanon to Portland leg of 840, thus. There was also debate about where a Portland to Lebanon leg would tie-in to I-40 - yes, tie-in to I-40, not connect to the current end of 840. Connecting near 109 would cut many miles off the route.

I have always believed that the Portland to Lebanon leg of 840 would be the biggest safety improvement for Nashville interstates through downtown

[MagicPotato]

I used to live in Dallas for awhile, even though their transit system is subpar, their interstate system is phenomenal. Yeah, there's still traffic during rush hour, but at least you had the option to choose alternate routes that doesn't deviate too much from the original time.  Nashville, needs to either have a better transit system, our a better interstate system. From the looks of it, we may be leaning towards the interstate option. They can't keep band-aiding the issues.  I don't know, but instead of having a full north loop, maybe we could just have a half loop that splits from Clarksville south to 840 near Dickson and then a North Eastern to Eastern corridor that connects from I-24 North to Springfield-White house-Gallatin-Lebanon?  

[PruneTracy]

11 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

The worst one is at the I-24/59 junction in Georgia. Apparently this is in planning by TDOT/GDOT with the IMPROVE act, but I haven't seen a damn thing about this in three years in local media.

Widening from the state line to Browns Ferry Road is likely going to design-build next year.

[MidTenn1]

^^^^ I stand by my previous statements. Moving on.

[smeagolsfree]

Bring this up at the next Forum meet and I will share my nasty opinion about the state.

[Luvemtall]

18 hours ago, PHofKS said:

^^^^ I stand by my previous statements. Moving on.

With all due respect , no matter what the circumstances were in the past or how things unfolded. The interstates in Metro and all of Middle Tennessee are not no longer adequate for the amount of traffic they need to handle. Something has got to be done ... like yesterday. 
 

[rolly]

There's a similar fubar in the Raleigh area.

Currently under construction, but finishing in a few months, is the 2 mile I-885 connector in downtown Durham. It's part of a connection between I-85 and I-40. It's a big deal. But they only made it 2 lanes each way!   /headpalm

[nashvylle]

Wouldn't this be nice:

 

 

[markhollin]

Tennessee officials embrace Amtrak's rail expansion plans:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2021/04/14/tennessee-amtrak-rail-expansion-vision-embraced-by-the-state/7130073002/

[Rockatansky]

I'd rather we spent the money on a robust transit system than on the interstates. Improving the interstates will encourage sprawl and low density greenfield development.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Rockatansky

[Luvemtall]

7 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

I'd rather we spent the money on a robust transit system than on the interstates. Improving the interstates will encourage sprawl and low density greenfield development.

We all want to see a solid robust transit system, it is definitely needed. But the interstates are also a much needed infrastructure that needs improvement. Transit systems are great for moving people around that live and work in downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods. But this whole Middle Tennessee region is a mega logistical hub, and tourist destination. You will always have commercial truck traffic and tourists driving in for their vacations. The interstate infrastructure is inadequate for the use it is now subjected too. As noted earlier in this thread, getting this type of traffic out of the central downtown area is probably the best solution. As PHofKS and others have suggested, building a “outside loop” would be the best avenue to pursue. Nashville is now getting some major players ( Oracle,Amazon, GM...etc) with substantial job growth. It’s time to get the infrastructure ( including interstates and transit) improved and installed to handle the tremendous growth.

[MontanaGuy]

8 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

I'd rather we spent the money on a robust transit system than on the interstates. Improving the interstates will encourage sprawl and low density greenfield development.

I agree, I lived in Phoenix for a few years before moving here and that's why that metro area is so massive and spreading in every direction.  They keep adding new freeway rings around the city and when they do the developers plan their projects based on where those roads are going to be.  I lived in the East Valley in Chandler and there was no transit anywhere near my house, not even a city bus.  It's interesting that a railroad track was near my neighborhood and those tracks went right through downtown Phoenix and off in another direction after that.  I never once saw a train going by in all the time I lived there but I'd hear them late at night.  It would have been perfect for a heavy rail commuter train like Seattle and a few other cities have but they did nothing.  We're nowhere near that big and sprawl hasn't extended to such an extreme but now is the time when we should be thinking about how our decisions today are shaping neighborhoods that haven't even been built yet and once that happens you can't fix your mistakes!