The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[MLBrumby]

Since Nashville does not have a typical beltway around the north of the city, it will need the Interstates through the city to be kept and widened.  Getting beyond the core, they're actually quite wide and nice.  So widening the downtown segments shouldn't add a whole lot to the sprawl, which continues unabated around Nashville. 

[KJHburg]

I drove up today from the NW suburbs of Atlanta to Nashville and the truck traffic on that corridor is unbelievable and quite heavy as it rolls into Nashville.  Why can't Briley Parkway being upgraded to interstate standards from I-24 around east side of Nashville on its existing route and connect back to I-24 and have this route designated I-24 to get some of this truck traffic out of downtown?  It seems like there is only a few stretches not a freeway now but designated this as an interstate could divert most of that through truck traffic out of your downtown. 

It seems like this was almost another inner beltway.    Nashville has grown into a major metro area whether you like it or not but the congestion is getting worse and worse it seems and not much is happening on the transportation front.   I still think Bus Rapid Trail and commuter rail need to get started and quick and eventually light rail.  

And promoting this new Briley I-24 loop with the trucking industry could get these Midwest to Southeast trucks out of downtown especially if I-840 is never going to built north of I-40. 

[LA_TN]

37 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

I drove up today from the NW suburbs of Atlanta to Nashville and the truck traffic on that corridor is unbelievable and quite heavy as it rolls into Nashville.  Why can't Briley Parkway being upgraded to interstate standards from I-24 around east side of Nashville on its existing route and connect back to I-24 and have this route designated I-24 to get some of this truck traffic out of downtown?  It seems like there is only a few stretches not a freeway now but designated this as an interstate could divert most of that through truck traffic out of your downtown. 

It seems like this was almost another inner beltway.    Nashville has grown into a major metro area whether you like it or not but the congestion is getting worse and worse it seems and not much is happening on the transportation front.   I still think Bus Rapid Trail and commuter rail need to get started and quick and eventually light rail.  

And promoting this new Briley I-24 loop with the trucking industry could get these Midwest to Southeast trucks out of downtown especially if I-840 is never going to built north of I-40. 

Yep.

And utilizing Briley Parkway in either direction requires going through a mind-boggling dogleg steep cloverleaf. As truck - unfriendly as it gets and renders Briley Parkway useless

And then, there's the Briley/I-24 interchange on the north side, built to modern 1932 standards with its 15mph speed limit

[Nashvillain]

I came across this today and thought I'd share. Not sure how committed Nashville is to removing cars, but it did recently lower speed limits on all residential streets to 25mph. Some more physical traffic calming measures are needed because many drivers ignore the limits, especially on streets that are used as cut throughs. 

"Cars Will Take the Streets Back Unless Cities Act Quickly"

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/cars-will-take-streets-back-unless-cities-act-quickly/618615/

Edited April 16, 2021 by Nashvillain

[smeagolsfree]

8 hours ago, LA_TN said:

Yep.

And utilizing Briley Parkway in either direction requires going through a mind-boggling dogleg steep cloverleaf. As truck - unfriendly as it gets and renders Briley Parkway useless

And then, there's the Briley/I-24 interchange on the north side, built to modern 1932 standards with its 15mph speed limit

Yep, the is the kicker. If they fix that section of 155, then it is the answer to the truck traffic problem. I will say that when traffic is back to normal, Briley  can be a parking lot both directions at rush hour. It will require 8 lanes from I 65 back around to I 40 and White Bridge/Charlotte. I live on that end of town and use to have to drive it at rush hour and there were times it was not fun at all and that was 10 years ago. 

If you add the truck traffic, then you have to add the lanes and the enhanced interchanges.

[bnacincy]

The massive logistics traffic leaving out of Rutherford County needs to be going away from Nashville-that happens if they are going southbound but if they are going due north towards the massive population centers in the Midwest expanding Briley Parkway won't be sufficient-the only real solution is 840 north loop.

Here's the situation-Amazon and now Oracle have just sent a huge message to the corporate world that Nashville is  one the top places to be as far as business-growth during the Pandemic has hardly abated-GM seems about ready to annnounce a new battery planet in Spring Hill-the growth will keep coming folks and we need to think ahead up to 10 years in the future.

The State of Tennessee needs to bite the bullet now and get on top of this traffic situation now before it gets worse than it already is. The only logical solution is 840 north loop.

[KJHburg]

I agree after leaving downtown midday and getting on I-40 the entire downtown network of interstates needs to be rebuilt.  I had to go right then left lanes then right again to get to the airport.  It would cost billions but something needs to be done and I think someone pointed out the interstate network downtown has not changed substantially since the 1970s or something like that.  Y'all need some flyover ramps lanes that help the through traffic get through and the destination downtown traffic.  I know toll lanes are a bad word here in this state but I think you need to add some TEX Tennessee Express Lanes (I stole that from Dallas) .  Nashville has become has a major city in the last 10 years and planning needs to get underway.   Look at Atlanta and Charlotte for that matter in that regard.  We have variable pricing lanes like Atlanta now and toll roads altogether in other areas.  No one including me likes to pay a toll but it means saving 20-30 minutes sitting in traffic I am all for it.  I have grown to love this city and don't want to see it choked on its own growth.  Plus of course other options light rail, bus rapid transit, commuter rail etc.  

this is how I-77 was rebuilt north of the city and plans are underway to rebuild it southward to our outer beltway I-485. 

Home - I77 Express Lanes

[smeagolsfree]

The politicians in this state do not have the willpower to fix Nashville traffic woes because all of the Podunk counties will be jealous that Nashville is getting all of the gas tax money. They want the money for roads to their trailer parks fixed first. 

They also passed the law to allow for toll roads, but none have done one. No political will power there either.

[bnacincy]

22 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

The politicians in this state do not have the willpower to fix Nashville traffic woes because all of the Podunk counties will be jealous that Nashville is getting all of the gas tax money. They want the money for roads to their trailer parks fixed first. 

They also passed the law to allow for toll roads, but none have done one. No political will power there either.

The Podunk counties would benefit from 840 north as it would spur economic growth in those counties along its corridor. It would also make those counties more attractive for commuters to live in as truck traffic would be diverted around Nashville and thus make for a safer and quicker commute into Nashville.

840 south was originally sold as an economic growth engine.

[downtownresident]

The rebuild of the downtown loop is on the MPO list of projects as funded, but the time horizon appears to be 2045. 

[markhollin]

The bidding process for a private partner to upgrade and run the city's on-street parking meters has begun

Mayor John Cooper's administration wants to upgrade Nashville's largely coin-operated meters with a user-friendly system to increase compliance. The scope of any future deal will focus on the 725 meters downtown and 975 meters in the Midtown and Vanderbilt area. There won't be an expansion or changes to rates and hours of enforcement. At least not initially.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/04/21/nashville-opens-bidding-parking-meter-contract/7284298002/

[donNdonelson2]

41 minutes ago, markhollin said:

The bidding process for a private partner to upgrade and run the city's on-street parking meters has begun

Mayor John Cooper's administration wants to upgrade Nashville's largely coin-operated meters with a user-friendly system to increase compliance. The scope of any future deal will focus on the 725 meters downtown and 975 meters in the Midtown and Vanderbilt area. There won't be an expansion or changes to rates and hours of enforcement. At least not initially.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/04/21/nashville-opens-bidding-parking-meter-contract/7284298002/

Considering the fact that there’s practically NO enforcement of metered parking now, I hope this move will mean that on street metered parking will become the SHORT TERM parking option that it should be going forward. (A midday walk downtown always reveals most meters flashing the “expired” indicator.)

[Jarno]

On 4/16/2021 at 3:56 PM, smeagolsfree said:

The politicians in this state do not have the willpower to fix Nashville traffic woes because all of the Podunk counties will be jealous that Nashville is getting all of the gas tax money. They want the money for roads to their trailer parks fixed first. 

They also passed the law to allow for toll roads, but none have done one. No political will power there either.

  Knowing so many people in he Podunk counties and many of their reasons for living there I have elected to delete my comment 3 times before leaving this one.

[markhollin]

Premier Parking has announced new checkout-free mobile technology. It is first being used in Nashville, with plans to expand to all Premier sites over the coming months.

The proprietary technology was created by Metropolis and is billed as an “AI-powered autonomous commerce platform built to modernize parking and empower the future of mobility.”

With the app, customers get can pay for parking at any of the new Metropolis-driven locations across Nashville. Once enrolled, each time a customer pulls into an enabled location, computer vision technology immediately detects a customer’s arrival and triggers a text message confirming the start of her or his parking session. When finished, customers are charged for the exact duration of their stay, eliminating the need for looking for payment kiosks, getting ticketed for expired time or paying for more time than they used.

Subscription parking and validated parking will also be improved, with the scan of a QR code or a phone tap granting weekly and monthly access.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/technology/of-note-23-april-2021/article_898ed2c4-a3ba-11eb-9d1a-ff9163cf6409.html

[GregH]

On 4/21/2021 at 8:34 AM, markhollin said:

The bidding process for a private partner to upgrade and run the city's on-street parking meters has begun

Mayor John Cooper's administration wants to upgrade Nashville's largely coin-operated meters with a user-friendly system to increase compliance. The scope of any future deal will focus on the 725 meters downtown and 975 meters in the Midtown and Vanderbilt area. There won't be an expansion or changes to rates and hours of enforcement. At least not initially.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/04/21/nashville-opens-bidding-parking-meter-contract/7284298002/

I'm curious how this will go, I would guess without demand-based pricing it will be less appealing to private partners. Politically, I wonder if it would be better to implement that now and bundle all the unpopular stuff together because increased enforcement is going to generate a ton of ill will no matter what.

[LA_TN]

Passing along two comments from a district meeting I attended:

1) why does Nashville continue to invest in transit (which is an extremely expensive and outdated technology that nobody wants anymore)?

2) what's the point of Amtrak in the age of self-driving cars?

 

**as always, please don't shoot the messenger (me)

[rookzie]

18 hours ago, LA_TN said:

Passing along two comments from a district meeting I attended:

1) why does Nashville continue to invest in transit (which is an extremely expensive and outdated technology that nobody wants anymore)?

2) what's the point of Amtrak in the age of self-driving cars?

 

**as always, please don't shoot the messenger (me)

Well, I expect that Cancel Culture took care of the source(s) of that comment slobber.

They probably left the meeting with bite marks on their a$$es...

[smeagolsfree]

I wish Elon Musk had been there to answer the question about the self driving cars. That does not seem to be going very well. 

[BnaBreaker]

4 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

I wish Elon Musk had been there to answer the question about the self driving cars. That does not seem to be going very well. 

Exactly.  Just because somebody conjured up the idea and drew up a concept, does not mean we're "in the age of..." 

Da Vinci had the idea of a flying machine and drew up concepts for it, but that doesn't mean the 15th century was 'the age of flying machines.'  Now, we're obviously closer to 'the self-driving car' age in the present day than Da Vinci was to 'the age of flying machines.'  But the point is, until you have a truly functional and self-sufficient system in place to accommodate this new concept, it would be foolish to put all of your eggs into that basket.  But even if we do get to an age in which self-driving cars are a prominent feature in our planet's transportation schemes, I don't really see why that would eliminate the need for rail in some form.  It would be like saying that airplanes suddenly became obsolete as soon as the helicopter was invented.   Plus, I think part of the allure of the car is that people like to drive.  If cars just evolve into what are essentially private transport pods that all go exactly the same speed, or effectively just 'mass transit for one,' then I can see a lot of people not wanting to spend the money on one.   That is to say nothing of the urban planning ramifications involved.

Edited April 30, 2021 by BnaBreaker

[Bos2Nash]

On 4/16/2021 at 3:56 PM, smeagolsfree said:

They also passed the law to allow for toll roads, but none have done one. No political will power there either.

The trick with Toll Roads is we would have to go through the federal government to place tolls on the Interstates. Tolls can be added to "Hot Lanes" (think HOV on steroids), but building tolling facilities on existing highways is hard and a very laborous process. The Trump administration tried to allow tolls on Interstates through their infrastructure bill, but it's the federal government. The most recent tolling adventure I had heard of was the RI Truck Toll where the state built tolls on I-95, but it was isolated to trucks above a certain axle count only. I know the trucking organizations all sued for discrimination, but I dont know what happened beyond that. 

Because Nashville (and even TN as a whole) highways are all interstates, I tend to doubt we will ever see tolling on the interstates. One thing that some bigger cities play around with is a "Congestion Fee" which is essentially a toll, but it is more centralized around very dense areas. I belive London has one. There has been chatter in certain circles for years in Boston that they could utilize one (they have been ranked worst traffic multiple times sadly), but I do not believe any city in the US has such a fee.

[smeagolsfree]

Route 840 would have been a perfect example of a toll road option along with the extension if they had decided to do the northern route. The southern route was not an Interstate until recently. Another option would be for the state to build another toll bypass around the northern part of Davidson from Kentucky instead of making I 24 8 lanes. They would be able to pay for another road that way and that could be the way the state pays for new roads around Nashville if the state insist on building more roads. Those would be state roads and not Interstates, much like beltway 8 was in Texas around Houston.

There are always options to bypass the state. Ky & In  were able to make the new I 65 over the OHIO a toll bridge with not much of an issue.

[rookzie]

On 5/6/2021 at 2:11 PM, Bos2Nash said:

The trick with Toll Roads is we would have to go through the federal government to place tolls on the Interstates. Tolls can be added to "Hot Lanes" (think HOV on steroids), but building tolling facilities on existing highways is hard and a very laborous process. The Trump administration tried to allow tolls on Interstates through their infrastructure bill, but it's the federal government. The most recent tolling adventure I had heard of was the RI Truck Toll where the state built tolls on I-95, but it was isolated to trucks above a certain axle count only. I know the trucking organizations all sued for discrimination, but I dont know what happened beyond that. 

Because Nashville (and even TN as a whole) highways are all interstates, I tend to doubt we will ever see tolling on the interstates. One thing that some bigger cities play around with is a "Congestion Fee" which is essentially a toll, but it is more centralized around very dense areas. I belive London has one. There has been chatter in certain circles for years in Boston that they could utilize one (they have been ranked worst traffic multiple times sadly), but I do not believe any city in the US has such a fee.

This past March the U.S. DOT gave New York State the OK to proceed with a federally required Environmental Assessment and public outreach for New York City's conceptual congesting-pricing plan in Manhattan.  The State itself approved a plan in 2019.

However New York's plan is different from what you're speaking of  ─ the interstates ─ and instead is zonal, with certain exemptions for residents and for those with income below a threshold.  So far I've heard of no interstate-designated expressway yet implemented in a domestic congestion-pricing arrangement.  I think New York's zone plan is to become the first, while L.A. is set to follow suit.  I expect L.A. to aim for an expressway-based plan, just as Atlanta's demonstration set-up was in 2012-'13.

But then Atlanta's plan, designated a "Congestion Reduction Demonstration", was not what I consider a true "Congestion-Pricing" set-up, even with HOT lanes, because general-purpose lanes remain free, instead of all lanes having some variable pricing.   The Atlanta demo  included a transit component integrated with the HOT lane ─  a batch of new commuter coach buses and a sizable addition of park-and-ride spaces along a stretch of I-85 and along other segments of the trial.   Arguably, this transit element can become somewhat of an attractive commuting alternative, so long as a car is not needed at one end of the personal trip.  Then too, "Congestion Reduction" might have been a misnomer, because such managed set-ups don't necessarily reduce congestion.

Rather, HOT lanes and true Congestion-Pricing may "regulate" rates of movement (with automation-assistive enforcement) by inducement of tiered usage  at periods of high occupancy, thereby monetizing the cost of personal value of time as a commodity.  In this respect, their fundamental usefulness, aside from government fund-raising, remains academic.  One thing that can be said about the desired effect of Congestive Pricing is that it works best in conjunction with some form of existing alternative parallel point-to-point Rapid Bus or higher-capacity rapid transit with relatively high frequency of service.  By itself, Congestion Pricing tends to be highly regressive to those who must consume a high proportion of personal income to commute, but measures can be undertaken to offset that sense of disparity.   As a disincentive to driving in the most congested areas at the most congested times, at least in theory it may be the least socially inequitable way of managing traffic.

Edited May 9, 2021 by rookzie

[smeagolsfree]

Dont get me wrong, toll roads can go too far. I know the central Florida area has way too many toll roads and folks there probably spend a thousand bucks a year on tolls. I say they can be used as alternatives to alleviate traffic congestion on main arteries for the folks who are willing to pay to get to their destination faster.

[nashvylle]

[Rockatansky]

On 4/16/2021 at 11:43 AM, bnacincy said:

840 north loop

Is dead. Not happening. We'll need some other option to help alleviate congestion. As mentioned before, I support transit and oppose additional interstate widenings.