The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[PaulChinetti]

One of the articles said $750 mil. But I’m sure it’d be like a billion.  

[MLBrumby]

47 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Surely this is something that can be moved out of the city, no? Is there a lot of unloading/loading cargo going on here? 

I can't find when it was built but I have to imagine when it was built, it wasn't nearly as "close" to the city then. 


Ok went down a rabbit hole, but some interesting facts. 

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/29-csx-transportation-preparing-to-re-open-hump-at-radnor-yard-in-nashville/

In 2016, Radnor was CSX’s third-busiest hump – behind only Waycross, Ga., and Selkirk, N.Y. — as it classified an average of 1,477 cars per day. 

https://www.nashvillepost.com/magazine/runaway-train/article_91f2c263-0594-5241-a7e3-1665a05e183b.html

At 517 acres, it is, not surprisingly, one of CSX’s largest rail yards.

Side note, while trying to find the year of construction, I saw a little note that said during the Cold War, it was on Soviet Union list of targets. 

This is a few years old, but it has been mentioned that the UT School of Architecture will be studying the feasibilty of moving Radnor Yards. From the Tennessean:  https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/2016/07/04/moving-radnor-yard-could-game-changer-nashville-transit/86468984/

[FrankNash]

Why would we want to move the railyard?    It's ugly but needed.

[nashvylle]

4 minutes ago, FrankNash said:

Why would we want to move the railyard?    It's ugly but needed.

I actually do not find it ugly! Industrial, in a good way. 

[PaulChinetti]

A few articles I read made it seem like that’s how a lot of Nashville’s cargo is delivered, meaning if it was gone we would see even more semis on the road. 
 

We would move it because it’s over 500 acres in a quite close proximity to downtown that doesn’t house a single resident. Even if it was just made into a park for all of Nashville I think that would be pretty amazing. 

[nashvylle]

8 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

A few articles I read made it seem like that’s how a lot of Nashville’s cargo is delivered, meaning if it was gone we would see even more semis on the road. 
 

We would move it because it’s over 500 acres in a quite close proximity to downtown that doesn’t house a single resident. Even if it was just made into a park for all of Nashville I think that would be pretty amazing. 

Or we could keep the rails and solve our mass transit issues. 

[MLBrumby]

24 minutes ago, FrankNash said:

Why would we want to move the railyard?    It's ugly but needed.

Unfortunately, "we" won't get to decide that. It will be all on CSX. The promising thing is that the company has adcknowledged that this facility is operating beyond its intended capacity, and 500 acres in Berry Hill would bring more than a half-billion dollars. There's a strong argument to be made (by/or CSX) that move to expand their Smyrna auto rail transportation hub would enhance their multimodal capabilities. It's right next to I-840 and there's land to be had there.  The biggest hurdle of course would be the cost, followed closely by the logistics of doing this without missing a beat in their operations. This would not happen without state/county incentives and very possibly a bond issue backed by tax dollars. It would take a strong advocate with a lot of pull in the state house. Plus, I don't see how the purchase of Radnor Yards doesn't get done without the state buying it first.  Metro would not be able to afford it, especially if they were to plan a rail network on a portion of it. The remainder would bring top dollar from developers.  It'd need to be a complex deal, and there'd need to be a will to sell it to the public. I don't see this mayor doing that. 

[nashvylle]

11 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Unfortunately, "we" won't get to decide that. It will be all on CSX. The promising thing is that the company has adcknowledged that this facility is operating beyond its intended capacity, and 500 acres in Berry Hill would bring more than a half-billion dollars. There's a strong argument to be made (by/or CSX) that move to expand their Smyrna auto rail transportation hub would enhance their multimodal capabilities. It's right next to I-840 and there's land to be had there.  The biggest hurdle of course would be the cost, followed closely by the logistics of doing this without missing a beat in their operations. This would not happen without state/county incentives and very possibly a bond issue backed by tax dollars. It would take a strong advocate with a lot of pull in the state house. Plus, I don't see how the purchase of Radnor Yards doesn't get done without the state buying it first.  Metro would not be able to afford it, especially if they were to plan a rail network on a portion of it. The remainder would bring top dollar from developers.  It'd need to be a complex deal, and there'd need to be a will to sell it to the public. I don't see this mayor doing that. 

Mayor Barry's failed transit plan was $9BN (~$5BN initial and ~$4BN in opex). Austin's approved transit plan is like ~$10BN. 

If we could buy Radnor Yards for $5BN, with state help, and have rail system in place for residents- huge win. 

[markhollin]

The North Nashville Transit Center's preliminary site design has been completed, and the transit authority will host community meetings starting in late August and lasting through October to introduce the design and note community feedback.  

The transit center, which has an overall budget of just under $9 million, is also seeking to utilize both certified disadvantaged business enterprises (DBEs) and small, minority and women-owned businesses (SMWBEs) for the project.

Currently, it is estimated that construction on the transit center will start in the middle of 2022 and reach completion in the middle of 2023. Ongoing maintenance contracts will be awarded once the center is open for jobs such as security and landscaping.

The North Nashville Transit Center will sit on less than two acres of a 6.1-acre site. Located at the corner of Clarksville Pike and 26th Avenue North, the center will include amenities such as a climate-controlled waiting area, a plaza area, ticket vending machines, bicycle storage, public restrooms and employee break areas.

WeGo plans for five bus routes to run through the center eventually, three of which already intersect at that location.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2021/08/13/transit-center-community-engagement.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_34&cx_artPos=5

 

[smeagolsfree]

Waste of money!

[Nashvillain]

30 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Waste of money!

What's a waste of money? 

[Archibum]

Was there ever a finished publication or proposal for the South Corridor Study? Was looking at their website but it looks like it hasn't been updated in almost 2 years.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Archibum
spelling

[smeagolsfree]

The transit center. Just patching a used tire balding set of tires with 250,000 miles on them. What’s the transit center for?  It will just be a place for people to sit and catch the bus to the transit ctr downtown as that is where the buses have to go through most of the time anyway as this is a hub a spoke system with all roads leading to Rome. 

There is no comprehensive plan to overhaul the entire system to really make it better and keep the busses out of traffic. Now granted there may be a direct line to Vandy, but I will bet they already had that. The only thing that it may not have is a direct route to Opry Mills and how many folks will use it from that area for Metro to justify it. This is just a huge waste of money in the long run patching an old system when we all know the time, money, and energy needs to be put into the future mass transit study and funding instead of throwing good money after bad.

I was against this from the start. I will give Cooper an A for Oracle, a C for the tax issue right now as we do not know how that will play out, but for mass transit and communications a big fat F. His mind is in the 70’s. Transportation can solve a lot of evils including more affordable housing, when developers can build further out at cheaper cost, thus making housing cheaper.

It would help if the State and local leaders had a round table and toured the city in depth. I will bet the majority of the legislators have no idea the issues facing Nashville & MD TN. State leaders would be or should be thrilled to see federal dollars come into the state if the infrastructure plan is passed, because it will be money they do not have to spend.

[Bos2Nash]

13 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Unfortunately, "we" won't get to decide that. It will be all on CSX. The promising thing is that the company has acknowledged that this facility is operating beyond its intended capacity, and 500 acres in Berry Hill would bring more than a half-billion dollars. There's a strong argument to be made (by/or CSX) that move to expand their Smyrna auto rail transportation hub would enhance their multimodal capabilities. It's right next to I-840 and there's land to be had there.  The biggest hurdle of course would be the cost, followed closely by the logistics of doing this without missing a beat in their operations. This would not happen without state/county incentives and very possibly a bond issue backed by tax dollars. It would take a strong advocate with a lot of pull in the state house. Plus, I don't see how the purchase of Radnor Yards doesn't get done without the state buying it first.  Metro would not be able to afford it, especially if they were to plan a rail network on a portion of it. The remainder would bring top dollar from developers.  It'd need to be a complex deal, and there'd need to be a will to sell it to the public. I don't see this mayor doing that. 

Almost sounds like arguments made for another large tract of land within city limits whose name escapes me.....

OH WAIT – PSC Metals!

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

Mayor Barry's failed transit plan was $9BN (~$5BN initial and ~$4BN in opex). Austin's approved transit plan is like ~$10BN. 

If we could buy Radnor Yards for $5BN, with state help, and have rail system in place for residents- huge win. 

Here is the thing, though. Just because Radnor Yards would be moved, doesn't mean CSX is going to abandon their rail network through the city. Only Commuter/Regional Rail can go on the same tracks as freight locomotives and even then the carriages and locomotives need to be reinforced to withstand a collision with a fully loaded freight train at full speed (I know this be the MBTA Commuter Rail in Boston has had to do this exact thing)

[DDIG]

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

Mayor Barry's failed transit plan was $9BN (~$5BN initial and ~$4BN in opex). Austin's approved transit plan is like ~$10BN. 

If we could buy Radnor Yards for $5BN, with state help, and have rail system in place for residents- huge win. 

Yeah but Barry's plan included a permanent tax increase, federal aid, among other things to pull off. I don't think many people are going to want to pay more taxes to move the rail yard. State has a healthy bank account, but not billions to pitch in healthy.

[Nashvillain]

16 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

The transit center. Just patching a used tire balding set of tires with 250,000 miles on them. What’s the transit center for?  It will just be a place for people to sit and catch the bus to the transit ctr downtown as that is where the buses have to go through most of the time anyway as this is a hub a spoke system with all roads leading to Rome. 

There is no comprehensive plan to overhaul the entire system to really make it better and keep the busses out of traffic. Now granted there may be a direct line to Vandy, but I will bet they already had that. The only thing that it may not have is a direct route to Opry Mills and how many folks will use it from that area for Metro to justify it. This is just a huge waste of money in the long run patching an old system when we all know the time, money, and energy needs to be put into the future mass transit study and funding instead of throwing good money after bad.

I was against this from the start. I will give Cooper an A for Oracle, a C for the tax issue right now as we do not know how that will play out, but for mass transit and communications a big fat F. His mind is in the 70’s. Transportation can solve a lot of evils including more affordable housing, when developers can build further out at cheaper cost, thus making housing cheaper.

It would help if the State and local leaders had a round table and toured the city in depth. I will bet the majority of the legislators have no idea the issues facing Nashville & MD TN. State leaders would be or should be thrilled to see federal dollars come into the state if the infrastructure plan is passed, because it will be money they do not have to spend.

Improving amenities and services isn't a waste of money. The 22 route is in the top five in terms of overall ridership (even though Bordeaux is hardly a densely populated area) and the 9 and 42 lines are up there as well. Maybe you don't ride the bus because it's inconvenient or doesn't go where you want when you want, but thousands of Nashvillians rely on it  (including children in MNPS). 

Certainly there are arguments to be made about the efficiency and service levels of the system as a whole, but I don't see the value in crapting on legitimate improvements that are being made within current levels of funding 

"Crapting?" WTF? 

[Mr_Bond]

1 hour ago, Archibum said:

Was there ever a finished publication or proposal for the South Corridor Study? Was looking at their website but it looks like it hasn't been updated in almost 2 years.

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know the answer to your question but someone here probably does.  Anyone?

[Bos2Nash]

2 hours ago, markhollin said:

The North Nashville Transit Center's preliminary site design has been completed, and the transit authority will host community meetings starting in late August and lasting through October to introduce the design and note community feedback.  

The transit center, which has an overall budget of just under $9 million, is also seeking to utilize both certified disadvantaged business enterprises (DBEs) and small, minority and women-owned businesses (SMWBEs) for the project.

Currently, it is estimated that construction on the transit center will start in the middle of 2022 and reach completion in the middle of 2023. Ongoing maintenance contracts will be awarded once the center is open for jobs such as security and landscaping.

The North Nashville Transit Center will sit on less than two acres of a 6.1-acre site. Located at the corner of Clarksville Pike and 26th Avenue North, the center will include amenities such as a climate-controlled waiting area, a plaza area, ticket vending machines, bicycle storage, public restrooms and employee break areas.

WeGo plans for five bus routes to run through the center eventually, three of which already intersect at that location.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2021/08/13/transit-center-community-engagement.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_34&cx_artPos=5

 

This is great news. While the transit system is not great as it stands right now. having some infrastructure in place as the system improve will be awesome. 

This transit center reminds me alot of the Dudley Square Station in Boston. It is located in the heart of a very underserved area of the city (mostly lower-income homes). It is also a major hub for the bus system serving 16 total bus routes. 

A smaller example of a good transit center is in Asheville, NC. Theirs's is located walking down brewery hill and makes accessing downtown very easy. Their transit center serves 18 bus routes. 

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

Waste of money!

Disagree. It is the beginning of slowly building infrastructure for a bus system that will eventually be more robust (we don't have a choice). Similar to what the Green Hills transit center will be in front of the high school, this is the beginnings of building the ends of the system so folks can ride. While we agree on the bus system is in shambles, building infrastructure that will be able to support a growing system is simple, low-hanging fruit to build toward the future.

I feel like some folks on the board are too used to getting big proposals with flashy renderings that seem to take big swings at development and different solutions. Clearly Nashville cannot do that with transit, so starting small and moving up is the next logical step.

[Archibum]

21 minutes ago, Mr_Bond said:

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know the answer to your question but someone here probably does.  Anyone?

Thanks and glad to be here! Been lurking for a couple years so I figured I might as well get involved in some discussion. 

[Bos2Nash]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

when developers can build further out at cheaper cost, thus making housing cheaper.

This exact approach creates more sprawl and pushes affordable housing further and further out, making it even harder for those who need affordable housing to work in the city thus creating more urban exodus. Talk about a plan from the 70's.

[smeagolsfree]

You guys know me and I have said it before and will say it again. What mass transit??????? I have harped on this at the meets and I have ridden the busses which are OK in a pinch if you are going in a straight line to downtown but going anywhere else is an all day adventure, or you can’t get there from here. Also to cross a busy five lane road to get to the other side even with a light is an exercise in Russian Roulette.

Craig use the example you used about your neighbor! 

20 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

This exact approach creates more sprawl and pushes affordable housing further and further out, making it even harder for those who need affordable housing to work in the city thus creating more urban exodus. Talk about a plan from the 70's.

Not when they are transit oriented developments .

[Bos2Nash]

2 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

You guys know me and I have said it before and will say it again. What mass transit??????? I have harped on this at the meets and I have ridden the busses which are OK in a pinch if you are going in a straight line to downtown but going anywhere else is an all day adventure, or you can’t get there from here. Also to cross a busy five lane road to get to the other side even with a light is an exercise in Russian Roulette.

Craig use the example you used about your neighbor! 

My neighbor has never had his driver's license and walks literally everywhere. Everyone agrees that the current bus system doesn't work. What we disagree on is the fact that some feel the only way to solve the issue is taking a massive proposal (like Amp or the Transit Referendum) which clearly doesn't work here. This transit center for this area will potentially allow for this to become a hub of a revised bus system where transfers could be made. As the bus system grows and evolves, these transit hubs will become essential.

7 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Not when they are transit oriented developments .

True, but similar to the height discussion we have soooo much available land that would allowable for walkable neighborhoods makes pushing out further and further isn't realistic.... yet. TOD is a very easy term to throw around (similar to folks using "Sustainable"), but in realty are much harder to achieve. When we combine the past failures of transportation initiatives in Nashville with the current bus system, TODs really are not realistic for the current Nashville. Additionally the size of our roadways (not the interstate) is a contributing factor to all this. Having so many 5 lane roads (four travel and the center turn) that have so much car capacity makes transit less and less likely. 

[Nashvillain]

24 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

My neighbor has never had his driver's license and walks literally everywhere. Everyone agrees that the current bus system doesn't work. What we disagree on is the fact that some feel the only way to solve the issue is taking a massive proposal (like Amp or the Transit Referendum) which clearly doesn't work here. This transit center for this area will potentially allow for this to become a hub of a revised bus system where transfers could be made. As the bus system grows and evolves, these transit hubs will become essential.

True, but similar to the height discussion we have soooo much available land that would allowable for walkable neighborhoods makes pushing out further and further isn't realistic.... yet. TOD is a very easy term to throw around (similar to folks using "Sustainable"), but in realty are much harder to achieve. When we combine the past failures of transportation initiatives in Nashville with the current bus system, TODs really are not realistic for the current Nashville. Additionally the size of our roadways (not the interstate) is a contributing factor to all this. Having so many 5 lane roads (four travel and the center turn) that have so much car capacity makes transit less and less likely. 

TODs in the US have self-sabotaged by requiring parking within the development ensuring that people who live in the development are more likely to own a car and less likely to ride the transit. Side note, parking requirements increase the cost of housing

[PaulChinetti]

https://twitter.com/PioneerPress/status/1428135942930509826

Nice, St. Paul gets rid of all off street parking minimums. 

[smeagolsfree]

There are plenty of places to build TOD’s along these corridors, closer in than you think. The land use policy is one of the things that Metro needs to change especially along Nolensville, Gallatin N, & Dickerson N, without going way out into the burbs. These corridors can be lined with TOD’s and when you have more and the demand goes down, then the price while eventually start dropping. Again Metro needs to get way ahead of the game and start putting overlays in place now until 5 or 10 years down the road. This is where many of the Council members are short sighted and have to look past their own term. I will say Brett is an exception to the rule with what is happening on the East Bank as he gets it!

That is why the State needs to be part of the solution instead of contributing to the problem and right now, just like on this board with everyone that thinks they are so politically divided over stupid issues, no one is talking to each other and everyone is suffering.

 

22 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

TODs in the US have self-sabotaged by requiring parking within the development ensuring that people who live in the development are more likely to own a car and less likely to ride the transit. Side note, parking requirements increase the cost of housing

Absolutely agree, and that is why some of these rules need to change and be worked into any mass transit plan. It will have to be a hand in glove fix. Mass Transit and zoning will have to be done at the same time!

I am without a computer right now and working off my iPad so I get tired of doing the hunt and peck method of typing on my mini keyboard with King Kong-fingers, so forgive errors and delayed responses.