The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

I am afraid a lot of the regional transit woes lie in the hands of the State. Until the commuters, legislators, City & County Mayors start screaming bloody murder or people start going to the polls and electing pro-transit law makers, I am not sure it will change. Attitudes within State government are going to have to change. I really don’t think you guys understand the political climate here.  It’s toxic between the state and Metro.

As far as Briley, I think most all of those alternatives have been talked about. On the West side they have raised the James St. Bridge, but the key things they have to do is redo all of the interchanges at Briley/ 24, Brick Church and Briley and 24 close to the airport. The easiest thing to do would just make a fly over from I40 to I24 and keep the local road there.

[samsonh]

2 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

I am afraid a lot of the regional transit woes lie in the hands of the State. Until the commuters, legislators, City & County Mayors start screaming bloody murder or people start going to the polls and electing pro-transit law makers, I am not sure it will change. Attitudes within State government are going to have to change. I really don’t think you guys understand the political climate here.  It’s toxic between the state and Metro.

As far as Briley, I think most all of those alternatives have been talked about. On the West side they have raised the James St. Bridge, but the key things they have to do is redo all of the interchanges at Briley/ 24, Brick Church and Briley and 24 close to the airport. The easiest thing to do would just make a fly over from I40 to I24 and keep the local road there.

Agreed, commutes must get worse before people really understand the value of mass transit. Occasionally on 24 and see the mess that is the commute in to the city from Smyrna/Murfreesboro. I do not understand how people do that everyday. 

[Mr_Bond]

On 9/29/2021 at 3:57 PM, PaulChinetti said:

Continuous Sidewalks. These are excellent. 

"It feels like the people walking are in control, and the drivers are a guest in their environment."

Yes, please.  More of this.

Imagine if we implemented this within downtown over the next few years.  It would completely transform the feel, making it much more pedestrian friendly, yet still having the same access to cars.

[grilled_cheese]

Anyone have any updates on Rick Williams' alternative transit plan he talks about in this article?

https://fox17.com/news/local/nashville-businessman-pushes-alternative-transit-plan-ahead-of-may-vote

Seems like a really swell plan and I would like to help move it forward in a purely grassroots sort of way.

I will await your replies while I go live stream from my toilet.

[FrankNash]

^^^Rick Williams is a joke.   He is always trying to blow up Metros plans for transit with a Plan B.  He did the same with the AMP proposal as well.  His Plan B's never see the light of day.   All he ever does is derail what has been thoughtfully crafted for some  idea that is backed by people who don't even live here.  The Koch people are just trying to win for the moment but we are still stuck in traffic. 

[Bos2Nash]

Why dredge up something from three years ago? Clearly it is not a real proposal.

Putting passenger trains on CSX tracks is only feasible as a commuter rail option. The trains have to be built in a manner that they could withstand a collision with a fully loaded CSX locomotive. In the article Williams mentions building a bypass only, not barring CSX trains from the rails or even taking ownership of the rails. So in that sense it can only be used for regional rail due to the danger of a combo presence of passengers and freight.

While a combo would be a fantastic option, the tracks are also at capacity via the freight lines, so depending on how much "bypassing" is done, the trains would have to be built for impact one the bypassing is not included. Regional Rail stations are based on overall need in a corridor. CalTrain (connecting San Fran to San Jose) has its stations spaced approximately 1.8 miles apart (on average). TransitMatters (Boston based) is a vocal proponent of improving the MBTA's Commuter Rail service and they put those stations approximately 2.6 miles apart.  For a new ground up system, that type of spacing would benefit most from heavy rail (by that i mean third rail operation rather than Light Rail with overhead wires) and the third rail is not an option on the existing CSX tracks.

[smeagolsfree]

Rick Williams IS The Joke. He knew there was never a plan B. It was just a distraction. Besides getting passenger rail on the CSX lines would take almost an act of congress not withstanding that these are some of the busiest commercial rail lines in the nation from my understanding.

If he had a Plan B he would have already presented his grand idea. He is a nobody IMO, that had no business getting into the discussion. He just got the medias attention because the TV media always listen’s to crackpots because it sells. 

[grilled_cheese]

Uh, because I was told in good faith that there were alternate plans by the people who voted against it.

Are you trying to tell me that those people lied?  I thought there was some kind of text or book that told them not to do that?

[PaulChinetti]

I've always heard of all of these plans to use the CSX rails, are those rails even in places where people live and want to go?

Like if you could hand wave away all cargo traffic and make it commuter rails, would those rails actually be in good places for stations and such??

[smeagolsfree]

I think they did lie, but thats my opinion. They lied just to sabotage the vote. There was never a plan, again IMO, because if there were they would have presented it. Even if there were a Plan B it would take longer than 10 years to get the rails and the money and the govt. clearance to do what they wanted to do.

The rails do not go where they need them to go anyway. 

[PruneTracy]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

I've always heard of all of these plans to use the CSX rails, are those rails even in places where people live and want to go?

Like if you could hand wave away all cargo traffic and make it commuter rails, would those rails actually be in good places for stations and such??

More or less. 

• Bruceton Subdivision: passes through Belle Meade, Bellevue, Pegram, Kingston Springs, Dickson
• Chattanooga Subdivision: passes through Antioch, La Vergne, Smyrna, and Murfreesboro
• Henderson / Main Line Subdivision: passes through East Nashville, Madison, Goodlettsville, Hendersonville, and Gallatin
• Nashville / Nashville Terminal Subdivision: passes through Oak Hill, Berry Hill, Brentwood, Franklin, Spring Hill, and Columbia (this is in the South Corridor Study as an alternative)

Most of the places listed above have the CSX line in their downtown areas and many (e.g., Columbia) have extant historical passenger stations. They used to be passenger lines, after all.

[downtownresident]

10 minutes ago, PruneTracy said:

More or less. 

• Bruceton Subdivision: passes through Belle Meade, Bellevue, Pegram, Kingston Springs, Dickson
• Chattanooga Subdivision: passes through Antioch, La Vergne, Smyrna, and Murfreesboro
• Henderson / Main Line Subdivision: passes through East Nashville, Madison, Goodlettsville, Hendersonville, and Gallatin
• Nashville / Nashville Terminal Subdivision: passes through Oak Hill, Berry Hill, Brentwood, Franklin, Spring Hill, and Columbia (this is in the South Corridor Study as an alternative)

Most of the places listed above have the CSX line in their downtown areas and many (e.g., Columbia) have extant historical passenger stations. They used to be passenger lines, after all.

I would think that if there was a strong Davidson County transit component these lines could tie into, park and ride in the suburbs going into Davidson Co. would be decently popular. 

[bnacincy]

Commuter rail would be the best solution for Nashville's traffic woes but as Rookzie keeps reminding us CSX will not have commuter rail running on its tracks.

If someone can figure a way to get CSX on board with this then I'm all ears.

[smeagolsfree]

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

The rails do not go where they need them to go anyway

Surly,I jest lol.

[volsfanwill]

there is a line from Hamilton 

"But they don't have a plan, they just hate mine"

I thought about it constantly during the transit debate.

 

it also reminds me of other high ranking individuals  that said older deals and plans were terrible and their own was better. but then failed to ever even propose their own.  

adding.

during the debate 3 years ago, i always tried to let people tell me their "better" plans.   then i would break down why theirs would not work. point by point. but I always did it nicely 

[smeagolsfree]

To be clear, CSX will never give up its rights to all of the rail lines in Nashville. That is why I sort of made my tongue in cheek comment  as to the lines will never go where you want them to go.

Here’s they deal. If you want a VIABLE transit system that is available for all at all time of the day, then a shared track system on a freight line will not work. CSX is protected by congress to have complete control over those lines. The only exception is Amtrak as they took the railroads to court and won in 2016. State and local entities have no power over the rail companies. https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R42512.html

You may be able to have some limited sharing, on some oof the lines, but you would not be able to have full access as there is not an over abundance of extra lines available for use.

There are 3 cities you could use as examples of freight and passenger track cooperation, however most of this is limited and is commuter rail. Those cities in this study are Boston, Chicago, & Denver and I have rider commenter rail in all but Boston. https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/39852/dot_39852_DS1.pdf?

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

There are 3 cities you could use as examples of freight and passenger track cooperation, however most of this is limited and is commuter rail. Those cities in this study are Boston, Chicago, & Denver and I have rider commenter rail in all but Boston

I can attest from riding multiple lines in the MBTA system that CSX has priority on the tracks that are shared. Pointing to a specific instance, I was on the Worcester Line and had to sit in a pull off for 45 minutes to let a freight line go by. CSX will always have priority on there rails and only locomotive style trains can share the line with them. 

[donNdonelson2]

WeGo Star trains are running with a modified routine due to a sinkhole under the track near Omohundro Water Works. Passengers today were taken by bus from Donelson Station to Riverfront Station. No word yet on when the regular service route will be restored.

(photo from NC5 Nick Beres’ Facebook post reporting of the story)

Edited October 5, 2021 by donNdonelson2
Add photo

[smeagolsfree]

That is what I am pointing to. CSX will never give Metro or the state exclusive rights to the rail lines in Nashville. Freight takes priority. We will never have a viable mass transit system on the existing lines in Nashville folks. Not going going to happen, therefore plan B was a lie and a pipe dream that had no chance of happening in this reality. The guy had no idea what he was talking about. He just saw rail lines and said we can take those.

[Rick Dalton]

I know this is completely unrealistic but I had a thought about turning Church Street into a light rail line. You can hit many key parts of town off of it and it’s loaded with development. Again, not realistic but I would love to see it.

[LA_TN]

1 hour ago, natethegreat said:

I know this is completely unrealistic but I had a thought about turning Church Street into a light rail line. You can hit many key parts of town off of it and it’s loaded with development. Again, not realistic but I would love to see it.

We could just tunnel underneath it! 

[smeagolsfree]

4 minutes ago, LA_TN said:

We could just tunnel underneath it! 

LoL, Then the owner of Tootsie’s would be afraid they would fall into the hole dug up the hill.

[Bos2Nash]

8 minutes ago, LA_TN said:

We could just tunnel underneath it! 

In all honesty this will ultimately be the best solution for downtown Nashville as the surface is too crowded to add trains and stations and what not. That's a lot of cut and cover for stations as well as tunnel boring for rail lines. Sadly this will not happen without state financial support because of the overall costs this would take. Even getting up to the surface outside of the downtown area will take some serious political power that I don't think any representatives/senators/council people has on their own.

[markhollin]

In a public referendum last fall Austin voters passed a $7.1 billion transit plan (very similar to the one we tried in 2018) with 59% of the vote.  It included 5 primary spokes (some light rail, some rapid transit bus) and an even larger underground downtown station than was proposed here.  A big plan had failed in a public vote with only 43% just 6 years earlier. 

[nashvylle]

Does anyone how well the ridership is for the Music City Star (I think WeGo Star now)?