The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

7 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

TDOT is currently in the planning stages of cleaning up the mess that is the Ellington Parkway / Spring Street / whatever other roadways interchange on I-24 in the inner loop. This is fine on its own but it really needs to be coupled with a project to widen Ellington Parkway and fix deficiencies in its interchange ramps, followed by designating Ellington Parkway and portions of the inner loop as I-465 (or whatever I-65 loop number).

I didn’t think I was going crazy when I thought I heard that was in the works. I may be about half way to crazy but not there yet. 

As far as the inner loop that horse has been beaten and eaten by vultures and hopefully TDOT and the State will figure out a way to fix it. Hopefully it’s not what they did in Austin with levels below and above and what they have planned because there is not room for a 20 lane wide interstate here like the planned I 35 thru Austin..I can see an elevated  double decker loop and I think our friend Diane Black proposed that. All I can say is Oh the humanity, as  It will probably be a  cluster not to mention a ten year construction project no matter what they do when they fix the inner loop.

I have been preaching for those changes to Briley for years.

[andywildman]

9 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

Just to be clear, the I-65 widening is not really geared towards lessening commuter congestion. I think I said on here before that the truck percentages on this stretch are as high as 40%. It's true there are other options for moving these goods but I-65 is a fairly critical freight corridor for the continent and supply chains aren't getting any less fragile.

As a percentage of total traffic there aren't really enough commuters from Portland, White House, etc. for this project to move the needle much on congestion. That being said, the slowdowns at Long Hollow Pike should go away once all segments of the project are completed because it will remove the lane drop at that exit. Vietnam Veterans Parkway is going to continue to be an issue just because of the volume of commuter traffic entering/exiting I-65 there.

TDOT is currently in the planning stages of cleaning up the mess that is the Ellington Parkway / Spring Street / whatever other roadways interchange on I-24 in the inner loop. This is fine on its own but it really needs to be coupled with a project to widen Ellington Parkway and fix deficiencies in its interchange ramps, followed by designating Ellington Parkway and portions of the inner loop as I-465 (or whatever I-65 loop number). This would better utilize the roadway in off-peak hours and get some traffic off the I-24/I-65 concurrence near Trinity Lane.

The second item would be converting Briley Parkway between I-24 and I-40 (near the airport) to fully controlled access and making all of Briley Parkway I-224 (or whatever I-24 loop number). This provides a bypass for I-24 traffic through Nashville and also picks up the not-insignificant traffic between I-65 north of town and I-24 east of town, as well as taking some pressure off the inner loop. But all Briley interchanges not on I-40 would need fairly substantial reconstruction.

The inner loop itself needs a lot of work but that horse has been beaten to death.

This also isn't technically an Interstate project but the Portland bypass will help divert some traffic onto SR 109 (which provides a fairly high-speed link from the TN/KY border to I-840 in Wilson County). But it faces the same issue as the projects listed above. You really need controlled access and Interstate shields to get national traffic diverted off a roadway. If it were up to me I would have at least run I-840 up to Gallatin and connected it to SR 386, making the whole thing controlled access.

It would be really nice if there were a comparable project to SR 109 from I-840's western terminus north to Clarksville, say along SR 48 and SR 13. I'm not sure how the connection to I-24 in Clarksville would work; there was supposed to be an extension of SR 374 across the river at one point.

This is all super helpful, thank you! I think the widening will accelerate the development that’s already started up on the plateau in White House, likely to continue moving out towards Portland (anecdotally, my wife has worked in Portland for several years and sees more families commuting to jobs in the city).

I agree that modernizing ramps on Briley should be a priority to make it interstate-ready, but I don’t love the idea of Ellington as an interstate. Did I dream that there was a TDOT plan to take Ellington to 3 lanes each way in their 5 year plan?

[PruneTracy]

9 hours ago, andywildman said:

I agree that modernizing ramps on Briley should be a priority to make it interstate-ready, but I don’t love the idea of Ellington as an interstate. Did I dream that there was a TDOT plan to take Ellington to 3 lanes each way in their 5 year plan?

The only project I know of was to add managed/transit lanes to it, presumably for BRT. That shows up in the GNRC long-range plan and the TDOT I-65 corridor study with a 2030 horizon.

I get that Ellington Parkway is not ideal as an Interstate but it's the quick and dirty way to utilize infrastructure that mostly already exists. It carries about half of the traffic of I-65 north of I-24 and maybe a third of the truck traffic (using TDOT's probably generous truck percentages). It's never going to be equal to I-65 even as a loop of it but especially in the off-peak hours there's pavement there that's not being fully utilized.

[Sean blackdog]

From Facebook. 
On I-65 North. 

[markhollin]

The WeGo North Nashville Transit Station is moving forward, with demo of the land happening this month.  A couple new renderings below.

More info here:

https://www.nashvillemta.org/Nashville-MTA-WeGo-North-Nashville-Transit-Center.asp
 

This screen shot from Smeagolfree's excellent development map shows the site highlighted in teal at the center of the frame:

[nashville born]

I was there with a buddy this past weekend.  He saw the traffic and the crowds and the first thing he asked was if Nashville had a mass transit or subway system.   You already know the answer to which he responded, it needs one and then offered that it's probably too late.  All I could do was shake my head.

[MagicPotato]

Nashville would some what be a Portland of the South if we had transit. "Without the legalization of weed of course"

[Bark At The Sun]

Mt. Juliet Rd./I-40 Bridge Widening.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Bark At The Sun

[UrbanWes03]

1 hour ago, Bark At The Sun said:

Mt. Juliet Rd./I-40 Bridge Widening.

 

The engravings on this are a nice touch. Glad they put some effort into the design to make it a little special.

[nashvylle]

Does anyone know if The Nashville to Atlanta Amtrak is still included in this bill, and if so, does it mean it will get built?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/05/house-passes-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-sends-it-to-biden.html

[smeagolsfree]

Not sure, but did you see the  the Midwest Regional Rail Plan. Midwest Regional Rail Plan - Final report (dot.gov)

FRA releases new Midwest Regional Rail plan | Mass Transit (masstransitmag.com)

The line would change the calculus of providing frequent service from Milwaukee to St. Louis and from Indianapolis to Minneapolis, which would help justify the investments of these lines as part of an integrated network.

A line between Chicago and Indianapolis line could incentivize extending the service on to Louisville and Nashville. The population of greater Nashville, which is currently a little under two million people, is projected to rise over the next several decades. 

Fast, frequent service between Nashville, Indianapolis and Chicago would not only affect travel between those cities. It would also incentivize investments in connecting corridors.

As the high Speed Rail Alliance noted recently, this is how a national network could develop in the U.S. over the coming decades: The Chicago to Minneapolis-St. Paul line could incentivize an upgraded line from Chicago to Indianapolis, which could incentivize lines to Nashville and Atlanta. At the same time, high-speed lines are currently being planned from Atlanta to Charlotte and Atlanta to Dallas.

 

[UrbanWes03]

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

Does anyone know if The Nashville to Atlanta Amtrak is still included in this bill, and if so, does it mean it will get built?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/05/house-passes-bipartisan-infrastructure-bill-sends-it-to-biden.html

Considering the bill still contains $66 billion for rail, and the AmtrakConnectsUS hasn’t changed to not include Nashville to Atlanta, I would say it’s still a part of the plan. Thinking in terms of growth, Nashville and Atlanta are some of the fastest growing cities in the country and are projected to receive large amounts of population growth. I would find it hard to imagine them taking away a route that seems positioned for positive growth. Also, with the Midwest rail plan that Ron mentioned above, it would seem very disadvantageous to remove such a vital future connection. Things can obviously change, but hopefully our exploding growth as a city and a region will cement our spot in these plans. 

[Nathan_in_DC]

Big write-up in today's Washington Post about the impact the infrastructure bill will have on improving and expanding rail transportation in the US. In the article, Nashville is specifically called out as a candidate for expanded rail service.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/11/08/amtrak-infrastructure-bill-funding/

Quote

“It’s transformative,” Amtrak chief executive William J. Flynn said in an interview Monday. Money set aside for Amtrak, he said, “represents more funds than have been cumulatively invested in Amtrak over the first 50 years of our history.”

The funding will help to rebuild the aging infrastructure of the Northeast Corridor, which includes several bridges and tunnels more than 100 years old. But it could also help bring passenger service to new cities and towns across the nation. The changes would mark an overhaul for a service map that has remained nearly unchanged during a period when the nation gained 120 million people.

.....

The passenger rail is slated to initially receive $22 billion, railroad officials said. Under terms of the infrastructure package, Amtrak eventually would have access to another $44 billion in federal grants for rail projects — including the creation of new routes.

Amtrak and states will compete for funding for new routes, which could allow Amtrak to expand to cities not currently served by passenger rail, such as Las Vegas and Nashville. It also could create new connections, such as a Phoenix-to-Tucson route, and a new corridor in Ohio to connect Cincinnati, Columbus and Cleveland.

NOTE: If you have access to a .gov or .mil email address, WaPo online subscriptions are free.

[nashvylle]

37 minutes ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

Big write-up in today's Washington Post about the impact the infrastructure bill will have on improving and expanding rail transportation in the US. In the article, Nashville is specifically called out as a candidate for expanded rail service.

Is it now on Lee to approve it? I know he has agreed that Nashville / Middle Tennessee needs mass transit to remain competitive. Amtrak could be a great start! 

[MontanaGuy]

3 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Is it now on Lee to approve it? I know he has agreed that Nashville / Middle Tennessee needs mass transit to remain competitive. Amtrak could be a great start! 

I'm not sure, I don't want to start anything political but the GOP has had an anti-train and anti mass transit mindset for a long time now.  They suggested privatizing Amtrak a few years ago and the feeling I get is that they don't want the government in charge of something that certain politicians will think of as socialism.  I wouldn't even bring up such a thing but there's clearly a stark difference between the political parties on this issue.

[markhollin]

What federal infrastructure funds could mean for Nashville bus system, sidewalks, and streets:

The nationwide investment in infrastructure would deliver about $7 billion to Tennessee, according to a state analysis. The bill spans highway and pedestrian safety programs, roads and bridges, electric vehicle charging stations, increased cybersecurity and climate change protections.

Infrastructure bill funds could provide some of the funding needed to implement parts of Metro's Infrastructure Plan, which the Metro Council approved in December 2020.

The proposal to overhaul Nashville's bus system, extend its sidewalks, repair streets and install modern technology came with a contentious $1.6 billion price tag. Before its passage, council members noted the proposal lacked financial backing and a clear timeline.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2021/11/11/federal-infrastructure-bill-nashville-transportation-buses-sidewalks-streets/6343734001/

[MLBrumby]

3 minutes ago, markhollin said:

What federal infrastructure funds could mean for Nashville bus system, sidewalks, and streets:

The nationwide investment in infrastructure would deliver about $7 billion to Tennessee, according to a state analysis. The bill spans highway and pedestrian safety programs, roads and bridges, electric vehicle charging stations, increased cybersecurity and climate change protections.

Infrastructure bill funds could provide some of the funding needed to implement parts of Metro's Infrastructure Plan, which the Metro Council approved in December 2020.

The proposal to overhaul Nashville's bus system, extend its sidewalks, repair streets and install modern technology came with a contentious $1.6 billion price tag. Before its passage, council members noted the proposal lacked financial backing and a clear timeline.

More at The Tennessean here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/davidson/2021/11/11/federal-infrastructure-bill-nashville-transportation-buses-sidewalks-streets/6343734001/

"contentious $1.6 billion price tag"?  I can't get past paywall. 

What would Mayor Barry's transit plan 5 years ago have cost?  Meanwhile very little has been done, and the cost will continue to rise.  Does anyone else get the sense that Metro Council is actually more of an obstacle to getting mass transit in Nashville?  Just like my point about parks above, it seems that Metro just gets mired in conducting studies ad nauseum.  

[Nathan_in_DC]

22 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

"contentious $1.6 billion price tag"?  I can't get past paywall. 

What would Mayor Barry's transit plan 5 years ago have cost?  Meanwhile very little has been done, and the cost will continue to rise.  Does anyone else get the sense that Metro Council is actually more of an obstacle to getting mass transit in Nashville?  Just like my point about parks above, it seems that Metro just gets mired in conducting studies ad nauseum.  

That's the sense I get...they comission extensive, expensive studies, but never do anything of substance. All the while the sidewalks are crumbling and overgrown, the roads are a hot mess, and the public transportation is a complete joke.

[smeagolsfree]

I have already left my 2 cents worth in the comments section of the TN. The infrastructure bill does nothing to address traffic in Nashville I think, because there is no current mass transit plan in place other than the stinking bus system. 

There is no plan and sidewalks do not address mass transit folks no matter what some would argue here. You can build all the sidewalks in the world but you can't walk 20 miles to work or expect to catch a bus that is stuck in the same traffic everyone else is stuck in. In the article there is money for more sidewalks and that is needed, but busses in a failing system...come on!

[samsonh]

17 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

I have already left my 2 cents worth in the comments section of the TN. The infrastructure bill does nothing to address traffic in Nashville I think, because there is no current mass transit plan in place other than the stinking bus system. 

There is no plan and sidewalks do not address mass transit folks no matter what some would argue here. You can build all the sidewalks in the world but you can't walk 20 miles to work or expect to catch a bus that is stuck in the same traffic everyone else is stuck in. In the article there is money for more sidewalks and that is needed, but busses in a failing system...come on!

Agreed. I think traffic has to get truly terrible, and the outlying counties have to start buying in to a region wide plan.  The denser developments beginning to happen in Donelson need to happen elsewhere to make mass transit feasible. It will take longer than anyone wants, and be more expensive than we all want. 

 

We also need the state to want to help, which it does not want to right now. 

[nashvylle]

Getting Amtrak to Atlanta will help as we have to start somewhere. 

[nashscan]

I love trains and would love to see Amtrak in Nashville, but call me skeptical.    Endless red tape, bureaucracy, and millions and millions of dollars spent on study after study after study.    And don't forget all the well meaning people out there who scream "we don't want Nashville to become Atlanta" simply because that's what they've heard people say so they say it too.  

[smeagolsfree]

19 hours ago, nashvylle said:

Getting Amtrak to Atlanta will help as we have to start somewhere. 

From all indications it will go to Louisville and Indy first, then on to Chicago before they ever have service to Atlanta. If I were to make my first train journey since I were two years old then it would be to Chicago and not Atlanta. I will not get into it much, but if you are younger Atlanta might be your choice, but not for me anymore. Chicago has a lot more to offer IMO! Besides if you get to Atlanta by train how are you going to get round the city. MARTA pretty much stinks! A north /south - east/ west line that still does not get you where you need to go.

 

[tragenvol]

Unless the bill changed for Amtrak expansion, the initial plan within the infrastructure bill only included Nashville to Atlanta; but there are representatives and others proposing additional Amtrak routes to/from Nashville. 

[markhollin]

What Tennessee could get from its estimated $8 billion share of the new federal infrastructure bill:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/11/16/heres-what-tennessee-can-get-federal-infrastructure-bill/8632845002/