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The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


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Previously the plan was to dump the money back into the general transportation fund. When GNRC did their managed lanes study they wanted it for transit and planning, naturally. It's not a lot of money in any case and some has to go to operations and enforcement, costs which are increased relative to dedicated HOT lane installs because TDOT's HOV lanes are not physically separated from the general-purpose lanes.

I wrote a post a while back on why the HOV lanes in Tennessee are the way they are. The short answer is that TDOT puts the bare minimum out there because it's required on freeway projects for federal funding.

Interestingly the violation rates cited in the article are pretty low. There was a previous TDOT study that had them in the mid-to-high 90s. In some areas during peak periods the percentage of HOVs using the general-purpose lanes was higher than the percentage using the dedicated HOV lanes.

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On 11/18/2021 at 6:45 AM, Flatrock said:

From Channel 5 News, yesterday.

"TDOT explores possibility of converting HOV lanes to toll lanes" Sorry if this was posted earlier:

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/should-tennessee-convert-hov-lanes-to-toll-lanes-tdot-wants-to-know-what-you-think

I was under the impression that conversion to HOT was disallowed on our HOV lanes because of the specifics of the deal to get them built in the first place.

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That's what I undersatndtoo . A few years ago a law was passed to make tollways illegal. Don't know the specifics (e.g. if for new/existing roads, if for full cost, if for specific routes or regions of the state, etc.), but IIRC it will require a toll authority which has not existed and would need the lex to authorize. I believe toll lanes will fall under the law. 

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In Charlotte our beltway I-485 was widened in one  lane in each direction a few years ago for about 4 miles.  The state of NC planned to convert it to toll express lane a few years later.  They were told by the Feds they could not do that.  So this extra lane was not used for years and now with the toll express lanes almost done it will be able to used.   That rule came down from Federal DOT.   So converting an extra lane that was built to toll may not be able to be done if Federal money was involved. 

here is how they work here in Charlotte:

2020-express-lanes-network-faq.pdf (ncdot.gov)   free for high occupancy vehicles with special transponders 

 

Edited by KJHburg
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I at least threw my convert the HOV lanes to rail idea out there in the survey. So, someone may listen at some point.  That would hurt at first, but it would be the long-term fix State & local officials would want. 

If you want to continue to drive you can, but it would be a huge incentive to take a train if you knew you would be stuck in traffic if they were going to take a lane away from you. There are still areas they could still add a HOV lane in certain areas if they want too and still have the commuter rail lines running right along the interstates. Again, these are commuter rail lines that would work right into an ELL system downtown much like Chicago with the routes going over the Jefferson Street & KVB bridges to service the East Bank and right through the heart of the Gulch. It can be done as engineers should be able to figure it out.

The Metro system then could be done with BRT light and maybe some light rail in places coming in on the spokes. No need to dig a subway and keep Tootsies safe from being subject to a Shake, Rattle, and Roll! You guys know what I am talking about, LOL!

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On 11/18/2021 at 6:45 AM, Flatrock said:

From Channel 5 News, yesterday.

"TDOT explores possibility of converting HOV lanes to toll lanes" Sorry if this was posted earlier:

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/should-tennessee-convert-hov-lanes-to-toll-lanes-tdot-wants-to-know-what-you-think

That's a terrible idea to convert the existing HOV lanes to toll lanes. It'll potentially make traffic even worst. If TDOT made new lanes or an elevated expressway similar to Dallas, then I can see that,  but currently no. I prefer not to pay to be stuck in worst traffic. 

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54 minutes ago, MagicPotato said:

That's a terrible idea to convert the existing HOV lanes to toll lanes. It'll potentially make traffic even worst. If TDOT made new lanes or an elevated expressway similar to Dallas, then I can see that,  but currently no. I prefer not to pay to be stuck in worst traffic. 

I don't disagree. For the record; I wasn't endorsing, just reporting. Personally, I think we should enforce (as practical/possible technology allows) and protect those lanes for designed usage. AND, beginning with one route (I-24) perhaps try a high-capacity, true interstate BRT utilizing those lanes, along with the multiple passenger cars, etc..

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3 hours ago, MagicPotato said:

That's a terrible idea to convert the existing HOV lanes to toll lanes. It'll potentially make traffic even worst. If TDOT made new lanes or an elevated expressway similar to Dallas, then I can see that,  but currently no. I prefer not to pay to be stuck in worst traffic. 

I guess it depends on what the exact application is. If TDOT removed a general-purpose lane to add a managed lane with dynamic pricing, congestion would theoretically improve for all users. This is because it would give the agency the ability to regulate the volume within the lane to maximize throughput (volume times speed). During congested periods that means there would be at least one lane with consistently high throughput versus zero in the GP lanes; or to put it differently if less technically, keeping one lane moving is removing vehicles from the traffic jam, which helps clear it faster. Of course there is a free-rider problem here but other projects around the country show that there is always demand to utilize a tolled lane especially where dynamic pricing is used. Unfortunately with TDOT's current setup for HOV lanes these benefits likely wouldn't be realized without very aggressive enforcement as it will be difficult to keep drivers from ducking in and out of the managed lanes and it only takes one butthole cruising at 20 MPH in it with his blinker on trying to get back into the regular lanes to mess up the whole scheme.

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1 hour ago, PillowTalk4 said:

It's probably way too late for Nashville to do any type of street widening in the core and midtown.  way too much development has already taken place in areas where they could have just 5-10 years ago.  The real option Nashville will have is to improve mass transit to include some type of rail system that will need to be a combination of surface and underground.  The longer Nashville waits, the more expensive it will be.  More than likely without major Federal funding, it simply may not happen.

Sad, but true...

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12 hours ago, PleinNash said:

Looong time reader, first time to comment. 

As a Nashville Native & resident I have greatly enjoyed following this forum on a daily basis for years now. I am excited about the continued development of a work, play, LIVE and WALK central core. Encouraging  desirable living conditions in our core, which is well underway, is going to be the practical solution to our traffic woes. I might even be for incentivizing such citizens. 

 

Good to hear from you, PleinNash!  You are most welcome to post more often.  : )

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Admittedly overly cynical, but as spot on as everyone is on the need for starting a grand public transportation system, I don't see it happening anytime soon. I don't see Mayor Cooper starting anything that could hurt his already poor re election chances and a new mayor could likely wait until a second term to start something which would get a lot of push back. Also we already have MTA, which could get lots of folks downtown, right now, but isn't widely used or easily workable for most. The WeGo app told me it would take 40 minutes to get from 12South to the office building I work in downtown, largely because I would need to switch buses and/or walk a good bit. I can drive it in 20 minutes, on a really bad day. Gentrification has led to a lot of folks who, if they even work downtown, can afford parking. Moving forward many office folk will be working only 2,3 or maybe 4 days a week in an office, making aggravating commutes a little less aggravating. I'm all for light rail, subways anything to improve mass transportation in Nashville. It's how we realistically can get there that baffles me.

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3 hours ago, Deepdish53 said:

This is kind of a chicken or the egg scenario. Right now, developers look at our transportation infrastructure that is built solely for cars and balk at the idea of building at a density or site layout that would create walkable neighborhoods to support rail. Additionally, many people look at our built environment and question why we would ever build rail if the density and neighborhood layout won't provide enough ridership support.

If we are going to shift from an auto-centric transportation system to a more multi-modal one, somebody's going to have to take the first step. The logical first step is for us to develop rail infrastructure that connects walkable nodes throughout Nashville to provide a solid starting point and go from there. Higher density can then be provided at these nodes to make sure we're maximizing ridership and incentivizing public transportation use over personal vehicles.

Eventually, as more of the city is well-served by public transportation, it may become more normal for new developments to design with more walkability and multimodality in mind.

If we don't invest in more than just car infrastructure (although that definitely needs investment as well), we will only end up with worse traffic and gridlock.

I think developers would love to build at a density that would support transit and walkability because they could sell/lease a ton more units and wouldn't waste valuable square footage and building costs on so much parking. It's municipal zoning ordinances, nimbys, and lending institutions that prevent this from happening

Edited by Nashvillain
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3 hours ago, Nash_12South said:

I'm all for light rail, subways anything to improve mass transportation in Nashville. It's how we realistically can get there that baffles me.

Privatize it. If the city doesn’t need to pay for it ( read, no new taxes) then voters will not care. Of course , metro will collect fees and taxes from the business so that’s a win. Start small, maybe BRT in dedicated lanes , express buses from outlining communities, a monorail to and from the airport. I don’t believe that people don’t want mass transit, they just don’t want to pay for it in additional taxes . Most don’t understand, that municipalities are just like a corporation. They provide services, have employees, have operational cost ..etc. the difference is corporations get their income from the fees they charge us for their products ie.. gas, milk, bread, houses, cars..etc. municipalities get their income from the taxes we pay. People will pay whatever the price for their Bud Lite or a fancy new car , but when they hear the word taxes  they beotch and whine and protest like it’s the end of the world. Everyone wants good schools, nice roads , garbage collection etc , just don’t ask for more “taxes” 

Edited by Luvemtall
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