The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Archibum]

Plus there's the whole chicken and egg back and forth about bike lanes. "Why build bike lanes if nobody ever bikes?" "Well nobody ever bikes because we don't have any bike lanes." It's frustrating to see road construction and widening justified with a future capacity, like we need to build this road because more people will be driving here, but it seems like bike lanes are more often passed by because "no one is biking" instead of proactively building infrastructure because "people will be biking a lot here in the future"

[Bos2Nash]

15 minutes ago, Archibum said:

Plus there's the whole chicken and egg back and forth about bike lanes. "Why build bike lanes if nobody ever bikes?" "Well nobody ever bikes because we don't have any bike lanes." It's frustrating to see road construction and widening justified with a future capacity, like we need to build this road because more people will be driving here, but it seems like bike lanes are more often passed by because "no one is biking" instead of proactively building infrastructure because "people will be biking a lot here in the future"

Anything non-car oriented has to justified with demand prior to building (bikes, pedestrians, mass transit). Cars are the only form of transportation that gets it's infrastructure built in advance, ala induced demand.

Because cars represent "freedom" and the ability to go anywhere and everywhere with the turn of a key, while other modes do not.

[PaulChinetti]

I think if you mentioned not only bikes but scooters it would get people more interested too.

But like many people has said, unless a bike lane is protected, it does nothing to help the rider if they are the least bit nervous.

[markhollin]

After a Ford- and Argo AI-branded vehicle was spotted making laps around The Gulch on Thursday, an Argo spokesperson confirmed the self-driving tech company is testing two cars in Nashville this week.  

The spokesperson added that the vehicles, advertised as “self-driving test vehicles,” are being manually driven by Argo operators for so-called mapping missions and would not be tested in Nashville for longer than a few weeks.

Last summer, Argo AI, Lyft and Ford Motor Company announced they were working together to commercialize autonomous rides service and ultimately roll out a fleet of at least 1,000 vehicles on the Lyft network internationally.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/technology/ford-self-driving-partner-argo-testing-vehicles-in-nashville/article_df4f4ed2-9b2b-11ec-b854-878c3b2d8343.html

[PaulChinetti]

I saw one of those yesterday! I thought it was a new google maps car. 

[markhollin]

Walsh Road extension/bridge over Brown's Creek at Fairgrounds update.

Looking west from Craighead St. 1/2 block north of Seminole Ave:

[markhollin]

Gov. Lee took a recent trip to Dallas to see how they have handled growth in that sprawling metro of 7.6 million people. 

"It's an enormous rapid-growth community. It has exploded over the past several years," Lee said of Dallas. The flight, he said, was with real estate developers and civic leaders, "just to look at what Nashville might look like going forward … if we do it right."

His takeaway? "It's well-thought-out and well-planned. There are interstate systems that are obviously being planned and being laid out in advance of significant growth. If you look at it from the air, you can see the growth moving itself out away from the city. It really was informative about how we should look at … the highway system in the state, when we have significant growth coming, and we see the tower cranes in this city. It was important for me to see what we should be thinking about and talk to some of the leaders there who have already gone down that path."

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2022/03/11/lee-dallas-helicopter.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_34&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s

[go_outside]

3 minutes ago, markhollin said:

Gov. Lee took a recent trip to Dallas to see how they have handled growth in that sprawling metro of 7.6 million people. 

"It's an enormous rapid-growth community. It has exploded over the past several years," Lee said of Dallas. The flight, he said, was with real estate developers and civic leaders, "just to look at what Nashville might look like going forward … if we do it right."

His takeaway? "It's well-thought-out and well-planned. There are interstate systems that are obviously being planned and being laid out in advance of significant growth. If you look at it from the air, you can see the growth moving itself out away from the city. It really was informative about how we should look at … the highway system in the state, when we have significant growth coming, and we see the tower cranes in this city. It was important for me to see what we should be thinking about and talk to some of the leaders there who have already gone down that path."

More at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2022/03/11/lee-dallas-helicopter.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_34&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s

It's not encouraging that Lee's main, aspirational takeaway from Dallas was their enormous interstates.

[Pdt2f]

1 hour ago, go_outside said:

It's not encouraging that Lee's main, aspirational takeaway from Dallas was their enormous interstates.

I was thinking the same thing. Like when I think of how to poorly handle major growth when it comes to infrastructure and transportation, Dallas is one of the cities that comes to mind. 

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, go_outside said:

It's not encouraging that Lee's main, aspirational takeaway from Dallas was their enormous interstates.

With the price of concrete rising and now the price of gasoline rising, it may be that people will be more inclined and open minded to mass transit now than ever before thus sinking his idea. The price of new roads may well be out of site compared to new mass transit options in the near future. 

I am not trying to be political here as I am just trying to state the obvious. The next governor, whoever that may be, could be open minded to mass transit options especially if gas prices remain high. The last thing folks will want to do is drive their gas guzzling cars & trucks to work when there could be a cheaper alternative on the horizon. Every politician will bow to political pressure regardless of party when the stakes are high. The masses will turn in a heartbeat and get the pitchforks and torches out no matter who is in charge if things are not going well. 

Right now, is not quite the right time to plan on new roads. It may be a harder sale than he thinks.

[Rick Dalton]

Lee is out of his depth.

[nashmoney]

Quote from Lee "It's well-thought-out and well-planned. There are interstate systems that are obviously being planned and being laid out in advance of significant growth. If you look at it from the air, you can see the growth moving itself out away from the city." 

You've got to be kidding me. So he's basically proposing and commending sprawl. We will never get any real mass transit in TN with this kind of thinking. 

And there are a lot of other folks that think just like him in the state legislature. 

[nashvylle]

To be fair, Dallas has by far the most extensive light rail network not only in Texas,  but probably the most outside of NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, Seattle. 

https://www.dart.org/maps/printrailmap.asp

It is troubling that Lee did not mention light rail, however. 

[MLBrumby]

Overall, for a sunbelt city the space utilization of Dallas is toward the top of the most efficient. The only city that has a majority of alleyway neighborhoods. Just flying into Big D, you don't see much wasted "suburban" space. 

[PaulChinetti]

11 minutes ago, nashvylle said:

To be fair, Dallas has by far the most extensive light rail network not only in Texas,  but probably the most outside of NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, Seattle. 

https://www.dart.org/maps/printrailmap.asp

It is troubling that Lee did not mention light rail, however. 

Intersting, never having visited Dallas didn't know that. 

How long has it taken Dallas to get to this point I wonder?

[nashvylle]

5 minutes ago, PaulChinetti said:

Intersting, never having visited Dallas didn't know that. 

How long has it taken Dallas to get to this point I wonder?

decades. 

[downtownresident]

1 hour ago, nashvylle said:

To be fair, Dallas has by far the most extensive light rail network not only in Texas,  but probably the most outside of NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Fran, Seattle. 

https://www.dart.org/maps/printrailmap.asp

It is troubling that Lee did not mention light rail, however. 

Dallas also has a ton of walking trails, parks, etc throughout the city. I’m a new resident of Dallas and the Katy Trail blows any of Nashville’s current greenways out of the water, and should serve as an example of what the Gulch Greenway should be. The Katy Trail is fully grade separated, and runs from the North Central Expressway into Victory Park near downtown. Multiple apartment buildings / complexes / restaurants have direct connections into the trail. Uptown Dallas also has the M-Line trolley that connects downtown with a large urban shopping/mixed use complex in Uptown. The M-Line also runs past allude Warren Park, an awesome interstate cap park that has restaurants, food truck parking, etc that was very lively. 
 

I will say, I wasn’t a huge fan of Downtown Dallas when I walked through it last, felt very vacant, but to be fair, I didn’t explore much of the historic district which did have more people. 
 

Not surprised that Gov Lee focused on the highways here. They are good at moving large amounts of cars, but are just monstrous land hogs. The North Central Expressway is 8/10 lanes plus six lanes of frontage roads(although in the more urban areas the frontage roads are somewhat cantilevered)! 
 

Dallas in many respects could serve as a model for Nashville as it grows. DART is pretty robust, and ties into transit throughout the Metroplex. Frontage roads could be a good solution for fixing the downtown loop, and the Katy Trail is an urban greenway done right, and it shows with how heavily trafficked it is. 
 

Some shots of the neighborhood: 

Only picture I have on the Katy Trail so far. The section going into downtown is very cool and urban, with towers along both sides: 

Klyde Warren Park from a restaurant that is part of the park: 

[MLBrumby]

Agreed!!!! People forget that Dallas is the quintessential "Postwar American" city... it could have been completely freeways (look at Phoenix and San Jose and a few others), but despite itself it has managed to turn its downtown's decline around. Granted a lot of it is with its new "appendage" uptown, but still, the city deserves credit for reuse of its midcentury buildings and its relatively compact suburban sprawl.  And folks here have already mentioned its mass transit, which it really didn't have any incentive to build.  It is one of the easiest large cities to get around that I know of. I think the knocks against Dallas are unfair.  I mean.. take a look at my hometown.  As my college roommate said 30 years ago... "Don't conflate Plano with Dallas!"  I guess that can now be said about Frisco, Grapevine, Denton, Allen, et.al.   But even then, look at the density of Collin, Denton, and Travis counties versus Williamson and Cobb/Fulton etc. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by MLBrumby

[BnaBreaker]

1 hour ago, MLBrumby said:

Agreed!!!! People forget that Dallas is the quintessential "Postwar American" city... it could have been completely freeways (look at Phoenix and San Jose and a few others), but despite itself it has managed to turn its downtown's decline around. Granted a lot of it is with its new "appendage" uptown, but still, the city deserves credit for reuse of its midcentury buildings and its relatively compact suburban sprawl.  And folks here have already mentioned its mass transit, which it really didn't have any incentive to build.  It is one of the easiest large cities to get around that I know of. I think the knocks against Dallas are unfair.  I mean.. take a look at my hometown.  As my college roommate said 30 years ago... "Don't conflate Plano with Dallas!"  I guess that can now be said about Frisco, Grapevine, Denton, Allen, et.al.   But even then, look at the density of Collin, Denton, and Travis counties versus Williamson and Cobb/Fulton etc. 

I agree that Dallas gets a lot of undeserved flack, and there are certainly things they've done there that Nashville could and should learn from.  I think the main thing most people, myself included, were discouraged by though was not that Governor Lee went to Dallas, but what Governor Lee appears to have taken away from his trip to Dallas which was, by all accounts, 'Wow, big freeways.'  

[donNdonelson2]

It’s easy to forget how important the Cumberland River is as a part of our vital transportation infrastructure. Yesterday when walking the Stones River Greenway I got a reminder. If not for the presence of the river, we’d have many more trucks on our roads. Photo is a look at the Cumberland just downstream of its confluence with the Stones River.

[MagicPotato]

https://www.tn.gov/tdot/projects/region-3/i-24-smart-corridor.html
 

I’m still skeptical about this smart corridor business. So what if both “corridors” are blocked?  Are we suddenly sent to traffic purgatory? Also, have they seen State Route 1/Murfreesboro road ?  State Route 1/Murfreesboro road is definitely not adequate enough to handle massive automotive  “interstate transfers”.  

And another thing State Route 1/Murfreesboro road doesn’t universally connect well with other parts of the Nashville metro, it’s mainly Rutherford Co , parts of Davidson Co, and to an extent Wilson co. The roads connecting I24 and  State Route 1/Murfreesboro road are awkwardly built. I can only imagine the transfers from one to another would be a nightmare.

Honestly I think this “smart corridor” bologna is just a catch phrase to give  us an excuse to not upgrade the infrastructure. That’s cool that you widen 440 a little and rework the hickory hollow intersection, guess what? That'll help for maybe a couple years to a decade? The inner and outer loops needs an entire rework.

Instead of adding duck tape, TDOT needs to actually do something worth while like adding mass transit, add more highways, or complete the 840 bypass.

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by MagicPotato

[Luvemtall]

1 hour ago, MagicPotato said:

Instead of adding duck tape, TDOT needs to actually do something worth while like adding mass transit, add more highways, or complete the 840 bypass.

Yes, all of the above. But IMHO completing the I-840 loop is by far the most important and worthwhile thing that should be done, and asap. 

[MagicPotato]

4 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

Yes, all of the above. But IMHO completing the I-840 loop is by far the most important and worthwhile thing that should be done, and asap. 

I agree, too bad it won't happen anytime soon. If 840N was completed, it'll provide access to people in Clarksville to travel conveniently to Franklin without going through Nashville. Which could potentially bring cohesion between the Clarksville metro and the Nashville metro. Also, truckers can have a full bypass in all directions. 840 is nice for truckers travelling from East to West and vise versa, but not from North to South. They have to bypass Nashville when coming from N to S. 

[titanhog]

12 hours ago, MagicPotato said:

I agree, too bad it won't happen anytime soon. If 840N was completed, it'll provide access to people in Clarksville to travel conveniently to Franklin without going through Nashville. Which could potentially bring cohesion between the Clarksville metro and the Nashville metro. Also, truckers can have a full bypass in all directions. 840 is nice for truckers travelling from East to West and vise versa, but not from North to South. They have to bypass Nashville when coming from N to S. 

At least build the 840 section from Lebanon to I-65.  That section is needed and would be a little easier than figuring out how to build the Dickson to I-24 section.  Those hills and the river will be tough.  Of course, getting the perfect spot over the lake won’t be easy for the Lebanon section.  But at least with the western section, Briley Parkway seems adequate for those coming from I-40 west and needing to get to 24 W or 65N.

[Luvemtall]

Speaking of the perfect spot to cross the lake, brings up a question. Does TDOT have a route picked out to connect 840 at 40 up though Lebanon if they ever decide to do so? Reason I’m asking , is there’s a lot of established residential  neighborhoods that seem to be in the path , no matter what angle they take. And there’s a whole slew of new development projects in that general area. What kinda ROW does TDOT have ? And how many homes and businesses would be displaced?