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The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


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With additional improvements and upgrades to 109, we’d essentially have a north/south bypass on the eastern side, as 109 intersects with 840 at Gladeville. This holds potential to alleviate some of Nashville’s woes from through truck traffic, and at less expense, and more quickly than a whole new road building project.

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The Northern loop of 840, in 2003, was estimated at a billion dollars.

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In 2003, then-Gov. Phil Bredesen’s administration halted the northern loop proposal. By then, experts concluded it would cost more than $1 billion.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/tn-elections/2018/06/08/diane-blacks-plan-complete-840-loop-similar-1-billion-plan-shelved-2003/683252002/

 

 

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9 minutes ago, donNdonelson2 said:

With additional improvements and upgrades to 109, we’d essentially have a north/south bypass on the eastern side, as 109 intersects with 840 at Gladeville. This holds potential to alleviate some of Nashville’s woes from through truck traffic, and at less expense, and more quickly than a whole new road building project.

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Understandably so, but with all the future development that is about to take place from its juction with I-840 to and though Gallatin, there no doubt will be multiple traffic lights that truckers especially will avoid. A true interstate route is around the city is needed. 

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Nashville is already one of the sprawliest, if not the sprawliest, and least dense large metros in the country, and completing that loop would just make it exponentially worse.  Have we learned no lessons from the 80's and 90's?  I get that traffic sucks, and we do need to find ways to alleviate it, but to me spending billions upon billions upon billions of dollars and destroying an untold number of acres of nature just so truckers can cut some time off of their trips seems like a pretty short-sighted idea to me.

Edited by BnaBreaker
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30 minutes ago, titanhog said:

It's not so much about helping THEM as it is a way to keep them out of downtown Nashville’s traffic (or Briley).

That's a very fair point my friend, and it was an oversight on my part.  Even still though, I've got to think there is a better way to address that issue than to plow a multi billion dollar highway through some of the region's last truly unspoiled wilderness.  I mean I am definitely not a person that is smart enough to come up with that alternative, but I don't know, something about the northern bypass solution gives me real 'amputate the arm to cure a papercut' vibes.

Edited by BnaBreaker
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23 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

So this would be a huge TDOT investment (paid for by state taxes) to make traffic for outlying counties better and remove trucks from the city's inner loop to presumably make more room for passenger cars(?). 

Let's look at it this way. Why not take a portion of that investment and create a Middle TN Transit Authority (MTTA) that would invest in a Mass Transit system that connects to the surrounding counties (Regional Rail), that then ties into a subway type system within the 440 loop/Briley Loop. That would give citizens a choice in their transportation needs so that we could potentially remove some cars off the roads thus creating a bit of capacity for the truckers. Then we could just maintain the existing interstate highways at their current capacity (with modifications to some of the horrible interchanges we have).

If drivers still choose to drive with an efficient transportation system like that in place, then sitting in traffic is 100% their fault. This would also open the door to more sustainable affordable communities. 

I'm with B2N.  Somehow, someway, it seems most of the issues surrounding traffic/efficiencies/etc. come back to the notion of a real mass transit system.  Two thoughts come to mind.  The first is from a  commercial where the serviceman proclaims, you can either pay me now, or you can pay me later.  But eventually, you're gonna pay me.  The second is from Henry Ford.  "If you need a machine and don't but it, then you will ultimately find you have paid for it, and still don't have it."   To me, both these describe where Nashville is relative to real mass transit.  For the life of me, I don't understand how leadership doesn't understand this.  Wait, yes I do understand it.  IIMO, it's likely because revenue generators are the priority.  Civic needs will always be secondary.  And on second thought, that's not a Nashville thing, that's an America/capitalism thing.  

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Part of the problem is that large trucks and the goods they haul don't utilize mass transit. We need to come up with some solutions to reduce the massive amount of trucking industry that has to cut right thru the heart of Nashville every day. Even with electric vehicles becoming the norm of auto/truck traffic in the next two decades, it will STILL be the primary source of transportation in this country.  I don't think it's either/or, but both/and when it comes to solutions involving autonomous vehicles and mass transit. 

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But , mass transit CAN be a capitalized thing. As the Bright Line in Florida is a Example of that. Have a private corporation build , operate, profit from it , just as the railroad and trucking industries do for moving their goods , so can a company  transporting people. The State and City can possibly help with ROW , but for the most part it’s up to the company. And while their at it, use electric powered trains /subway and build trash to energy plants to power them , so we can eliminate the need to have landfills polluting our ground and water and reduce our carbon footprint 

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B2N thanks for your insight. Maybe my reference to the Bright Line wasn’t the best, I was just suggesting that mass transit might not have to fall completely into and on the public sector. There has to be a alternative, and I’m hopeful that something can come about to get us all to a different mindset and reduce the amount of cars on the roads. 

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20 hours ago, markhollin said:

Part of the problem is that large trucks and the goods they haul don't utilize mass transit. We need to come up with some solutions to reduce the massive amount of trucking industry that has to cut right thru the heart of Nashville every day. Even with electric vehicles becoming the norm of auto/truck traffic in the next two decades, it will STILL be the primary source of transportation in this country.  I don't think it's either/or, but both/and when it comes to solutions involving autonomous vehicles and mass transit. 

Perhaps large trucks and the goods they haul don't utilize mass transit, but they would certainly benefit from it. In a similar way that building suburban highways would make more room for cars on the core highways by diverting truck traffic, mass transit would make more room for trucks on  core highways by diverting commuter traffic. And in my opinion, spending money on mass transit would have a much better return on investment than more highways because of all the urban benefits it offers. And I think mass transit is better suited to adapt to big increases in density as opposed to highways. 

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7 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

We could start going the way of some European cities, and ban all personal vehicles from their urban cores. Only deliveries, public transit and the like. 

Everything inside of the inner loop, ban parking lots, stand alone parking garages, build on it or sell it. 

Reintroduce trollies from the edges to get around the core. Once that's established, building those trolly lines out, into East Nasty, Down Nolensville, Out on 8th toward Metro center, Down broadway West.

I agree with a lot of what you're suggesting but I see major problems.  What about the countless tourists who arrive by car, they check into their hotel and want to drive around a bit and check out the interesting sites downtown.  Where do they park?  Then what about the residents who live downtown who own vehicles, would they be forced to sell them since they'd be banned from the urban core?  These are very drastic steps that you're suggesting and we need to realize that an alternative and extensive system of getting from place to place throughout downtown as well as out to surrounding areas would have to be constructed and proven to be effective before even considering such a thing.  I've travelled pretty extensively in European cities and I know how good their mass transit is but some people still drive private cars in almost all of them and an outright ban, especially in the big ones like Paris would be completely unrealistic. 

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Tourists would just grab the trolley. Residents are permitted, I’m completely blanking on the city but there is a list of allowed vehicles. Emergency, deliveries, special needs, ride shares (maybe), things like that. 

Oh yes sorry not the entire city. 
 

Something like in here, you trolley, if you’re a tourist. This would obviously require a trolley network and at least one rail line from the airport to downtown. 

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14 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

Something like in here, you trolley, if you’re a tourist. This would obviously require a trolley network and at least one rail line from the airport to downtown.

It's an interesting concept and I definitely support the goals it wants to achieve but I see problems in how it would work.  Before I moved to Nashville I visited by car as a tourist several times and parked my car next to the hotel which was in the middle of that no car zone.  So how would that work?  Also, now I live in Hendersonville and there's no mass transit between here and downtown Nashville which means I'd have to drive down to the edge of that zone and find some kind of parking lot which was outside of the no car zone, then catch a trolley into downtown, do all of my sightseeing and then get back to my car again.  I could envision a ring of unsightly parking lots around the entire zone.  So from my point of view we would need to address this entire scenario from a different point of view and that would be the establishment of an extensive mass transit system for the entire region before we could set up the car free zone in order for it to properly function.  Don't get me wrong, I love your idea and always enjoy your informative posts but when you dig into the complexities of how it could function for people in different situations big problems start popping up.

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It was Barcelona, not as extensive as I remembered, but still.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/barcelona-banning-cars-pollution-environment/

I think if the city/county of Nashville did what I was suggesting, it would have to be in conjunction with the surrounding counties and it would get them even more on board with getting mass transit from their counties into Davidson. I know there's a group of all the outer counties that were on board with the Berry proposal. They know making it easier and faster to get in/out of the city makes their counties even more attractive. 

From a now  ----> until that happens. There would definitely be growing pains and it would probably best best to be phased in like Barcelona's "super blocks".

I think phases is the only way this is ever going to get done, nobody has the political capital or will, it seems to do it all at once.

Edited by PaulChinetti
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1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

It was Barcelona, not as extensive as I remembered, but still.

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/barcelona-banning-cars-pollution-environment/

I think if the city/county of Nashville did what I was suggesting, it would have to be in conjunction with the surrounding counties and it would get them even more on board with getting mass transit from their counties into Davidson. I know there's a group of all the outer counties that were on board with the Berry proposal. They know making it easier and faster to get in/out of the city makes their counties even more attractive. 

From a now  ----> until that happens. There would definitely be growing pains and it would probably best best to be phased in like Barcelona's "super blocks".

I think phases is the only way this is ever going to get done, nobody has the political capital or will, it seems to do it all at once.

Paris is banning all through traffic, which is another way to do it. Residents/tourists can drive in to get to a destination:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-13/new-paris-car-ban-will-target-through-traffic

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-18/paris-is-banning-traffic-crossing-the-city-center-from-2024

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