The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[nashville born]

Given the rock upon which the Music City sits, would an elevated train system be feasible?  Several cities do it that way effectively.  

[PaulChinetti]

37 minutes ago, nashville born said:

Given the rock upon which the Music City sits, would an elevated train system be feasible?  Several cities do it that way effectively.  

An elevated train from the airport right down the middle of the interstate or down Murfreesboro pike to Music City Center would be amazing. But that would involve the state I think and their idea of better transportation is more interstate lanes. 

[donNdonelson2]

1 hour ago, PaulChinetti said:

An elevated train from the airport right down the middle of the interstate or down Murfreesboro pike to Music City Center would be amazing. But that would involve the state I think and their idea of better transportation is more interstate lanes. 

Think we could convince them to add a set of dedicated HOV lanes with an elevated airport express train above?

[AsianintheNations]

For now, I'd be happy with just a reliable (i.e. not once every hour) bus route to the airport. Obviously would be nice to bypass rush hour traffic with a train, but the barrier to that seems insurmountable right now.

[MontanaGuy]

2 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

An elevated train from the airport right down the middle of the interstate or down Murfreesboro pike to Music City Center would be amazing. But that would involve the state I think and their idea of better transportation is more interstate lanes. 

I also think that's a great idea.  I wonder if it would be possible to do a study of cities who've done that including how much it reduced traffic and slowed down the need for additional lanes.  A realistic projection of how it could help might be persuasive.

[MagicPotato]

Last night while heading to downtown Nashville from Murfreesboro, I see that the "smart corridor panels" are finally up. I'm still skeptical, but lets see how "efficient" it really is. 

[markhollin]

Clarksville Highway's widening and new bridge work continues.

Looking north from Clarksville Hwy. at Abernathy Rd:

 

[Bos2Nash]

On 4/22/2022 at 6:14 PM, MontanaGuy said:

I also think that's a great idea.  I wonder if it would be possible to do a study of cities who've done that including how much it reduced traffic and slowed down the need for additional lanes.  A realistic projection of how it could help might be persuasive.

We have to keep in mind that any train - whether part of a larger mass transit system or a single line for say the airport - is not going to really reduce traffic. I will increase overall capacity because people will take said train, but there is always cars willing to fill up space on the roads. Hopefully it would slow down talks about expansion though. While I agree that our interchanges need to be reconfigured, I whole heartedly disagree with the notion that we need to expand our highways within 440

[downtownresident]

Renderings of 12 Ave S complete street from NDOT: 

https://twitter.com/nashvilledot/status/1518682426339475456?s=21&t=mLZ0XQZoR06wvHMk1Y6jhw

Project page: https://www.nashville.gov/departments/transportation/projects/bikeways/12th-avenue-south

Project Map: https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2022-04/12th_Ave_South_Project_Map.pdf?ct=1650913525

 

Construction to start in late May. 

[Nashvillain]

^ Yes, please. Can we have this everywhere?

Edited April 25, 2022 by Nashvillain

[BnaBreaker]

Holy crap, that looks phenomenal!  I hope that similar projects are planned all across the city.

[rookzie]

Traffic volumes rarely if ever become alleviated or reduced by remedial action with options, if that’s even possible.

Building on Bos2Nash’s good clarification, the only measures that will actually reduce traffic volumes are those of austerity, a bit of what some of us have mentioned during the recent few years.  This is NOT even in the least to say that traffic flow can’t be improved by better management of traffic-route ecosystems.  Only places like NY City and Toronto (and perhaps to a very limited degree in Buffalo) have actually “fixed” traffic by banning it — whether temporary or permanent.

Even if I play the Devil’s advocate and say we restore all those surface street connections severed by the expressways in the mid-state from the mid-1960s through the ‘80s, incl. all interstates and limited-access parkways...  And let’s say if we widen all arterials each to include 4 through lanes, a center-turn lane, and if we even go as far as adding additional twin turn lanes at major intersections — such as already at Nolensville Rd...  All this might “fix” main roads like 21st Ave / Hillsboro Pk. (between Wedgewood/Blakemore and I-440), Dickerson Pk.,  Hermitage Ave, and Charlotte Pk. (west of 33rd Ave.), and Lebanon Pk (e.g. between Spence Ln. and Briley Pkwy.) to minimize disruptions to flow, so infinitely common and frustrating.  Let’s fix the annoying misalignments too, such as at Hillsboro and Glen Echo roads.  Finally, let’s go  wild and add 5 new 6-lane bridges in the core and a few more at the extreme river bends.

Even given such ideal improvements to the Metro infrastructure, traffic would fill it up to the brim.   Much needed improvements — even those as collectively ambitious as these — would simply induce more traffic, to an extent that the improvements would no longer be considered improvements.  Build it and they will keep on coming.

I took issue with the outright flawed rationale recently proposed by the state of Maryland to “relieve” congestion between Frederick Cnty on I-270 to the I-495 Beltway in the northwestern Greater DC area.  The proposal was similar to that by former Tenn. State Senator Bill Ketron, who proposed a monorail along I-24.  The primary benefit of a train with respect to traffic is only as an mobility option to getting stuck in traffic.  It will never fix traffic.

Edited April 29, 2022 by rookzie
(tacky sounding - double words)

[nashmoney]

1 hour ago, Nashvillain said:

^ Yes, please. Can we have this everywhere?

I agree! I just hope they can maintain the landscaping planted in these areas. Metro has done a horrible job of planting nice medians and letting them become overgrown trash pits. The 28th Ave connector near One City and the Stix roundabout are a couple that come to mind. 

Is it public works that's responsible for the upkeep? 

Edited April 25, 2022 by nashmoney

[Nashvillain]

5 minutes ago, nashmoney said:

I agree! I just hope they can maintain the landscaping planted in these areas. Metro has done a horrible job of planting nice medians and letting them become overgrown trash pits. The 28th Ave connector near One City and the Stix roundabout are a couple that come to mind. 

Is it public works that's responsible for the upkeep? 

They could fill them with rocks for all I care! I just want the reduced, narrowed vehicle lanes, protected bike paths and sidewalks. But pretty landscaping would be nice, too 

[bnacincy]

Terrific idea! I have long wanted this stretch of 12th Ave to go on a "road diet". I don't think there will much of an effect with regards to traffic because frankly, I've hardly ever seen any "traffic" on this part of  12th.

[smeagolsfree]

It is sort of hard to take in as 12 South is such a narrow street; it is hard to see how it will be done. One thing is for sure, it will slow traffic down.

[andywildman]

13 hours ago, bnacincy said:

Terrific idea! I have long wanted this stretch of 12th Ave to go on a "road diet". I don't think there will much of an effect with regards to traffic because frankly, I've hardly ever seen any "traffic" on this part of  12th.

The initial design suggested protected bike lanes from Lawrence on the north side of the “12 South” district all the way up to Hawkins just south of the downtown interstate loop. https://www.nashville.gov/departments/transportation/projects/bikeways/12th-avenue-south

[Nash_12South]

As someone who drives the route several days a week, it's pretty, but it will most definitely slow things down, especially in the evenings. Everyone will dread getting behind a city bus which stop multiple times in this stretch. My experience is that morning traffic is more spread out, time wise, but lots of folks come home in the 4-6pm timeframe and I currently see a fair amount of backup. These aren't potential bike riders or bus users, they will drive and likely start using the more residential side streets to find alternate ways to get home or to work. It makes riding a bike safer, in that stretch, but not once you reach the Gulch or get into the heart of 12South. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Nash_12South

[markhollin]

47 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

It is sort of hard to take in as 12 South is such a narrow street; it is hard to see how it will be done. One thing is for sure, it will slow traffic down.

12 South is 4 lanes wide from the south end of The Gulch to Lawrence Ave. (which is the stretch that will be changed in this set-up). 

[nashvylle]

StopAmp folks are going to be woken up in 3...2...1... 

[GregH]

1 hour ago, Nash_12South said:

 It makes riding a bike safer, in that stretch, but not once you reach the Gulch or get into the heart of 12South. 

The Gulch and 12South ends are already not too bad on a bike because the narrower road and high pedestrian traffic slows car traffic a great deal.

[rookzie]

Thing is with NDOT proposals, the renderings show a couple scenes with just a few cars, mostly parked in the pull-offs, but most renderings show a couple of city buses as the primary motored movement along those stretches.  That simply is misleading, unless Metro finds ways to impose restrictions on what cars can occupy those spaces.

I say this because at first glance, the renderings make those stretches appear more as Transit-Oriented Districts, which they definitely never were even close to being.  And just as Nash_12South said, as someone whom I've associated for quite a while with the 12 South district, it's darn near gridlock both directions during the afternoon commutes.  Ever since 11th Ave. was changed from a ramp-termination at Broadway into an industrial throughway during the early 1970s,  somehow it has remained a primary north-south core corridor, despite the progressively constrictions conferred by redev of those two districts.  It became even worse, when 17th Ave in Midtown got "indefinitely" (over an extended period) severed into a detour, ensnaring traffic along 18th and 19th avenues, during "filling in" of "Lake Palmer".  It even becomes more murderous, if a semi or a box van low-bridges the RR underpass at 8th and Gleaves, as it then forces yet another detour during those critical times.

The renderings look splendid, but the initiative does nothing but exacerbate another issue ─ that's all I'm saying.  As it is at this point in time, 12South is about to become transformed into a "Green Hills North", as far as spill-over through residential streets is concerned.  There's nowhere else to divert around or through the Gulch, so drivers are pretty much glued to stagnancy in that district.   I even dislike riding the city bus through those areas, since they become stuck in the same quagmires that they help create.

I only can imagine the squeeze, if they do this between Lawrence and Division.  It’ll be like ingesting pure lard intravenously — setting the stage for a “car stroke”.   What we don’t need is an “extended remix” version of Deaderick Street as a crosstown with a bus route.

Edited April 26, 2022 by rookzie

[Nashvillain]

I used to drive 12 Ave. at rush hour from the Gulch to Granny White Pk or Belmont Blvd. to get to Lipscomb U. I seem to remember traffic clearing up quite a bit once past Wedgewood Ave--maybe I'm misremembering. IMO, 12th Ave. from the Gulch to the commercial district is an ideal stretch for this kind of road diet. But this design isn't ideal as a transit route as has been stated above. 

[rookzie]

2 hours ago, Nashvillain said:

I used to drive 12 Ave. at rush hour from the Gulch to Granny White Pk or Belmont Blvd. to get to Lipscomb U. I seem to remember traffic clearing up quite a bit once past Wedgewood Ave--maybe I'm misremembering. IMO, 12th Ave. from the Gulch to the commercial district is an ideal stretch for this kind of road diet. But this design isn't ideal as a transit route as has been stated above. 

No doubt my soapbox chatter had to sound like a disapproval of a 12th Ave S. “road diet” scheme as rendered.  I guess the fake buses just “baited” me (doesn’t take much, as you already “learnt” about me, year before last).  They (the fake buses) triggered my disgust at the city’s tepid efforts spearhead an ambitious plan of transportation, such as what Austin finally has begun to do.  I don’t disapprove of it, however, as I did of the plan that emerged around 2018 for 8th Ave. / Franklin Rd., which is a primary US and state highway.

I perhaps overreacted because the renderings just seem unrealistic and misleading, and, with that said, replacing the lone action of buses with a flow of cars — both contemporary and raggedy () would have made it less like smoke and mirrors, even though it’s just a concept.    I haven’t examined the full intentions and long-term benefits of the proposal, nor have I engaged in dialog with any official proponents of the concept.

But in general I have concluded that these massive  proposals have yet to become answered with collateral infrastructure measures needed to adequately support the induced demand that likely will ensue.   12th Ave South is one of the very few remaining thoroughfares, leading to and from the central core, that have “taken off” in urban transformation, as developers continue to drive speculative expansion of these last frontiers.

But it disgusts me that the city has continued to cower — administration after administration — in forging the needed support and sometimes even political “machinations” for pushing through a comprehensive plan of urban transport — just as some other cities have managed to accomplish by referendum.   I have nothing against the proposal itself.   As Smeags had said in the past, everything around here gets done only in piecemeal fashion.

[Nash_12South]

Removed my unhelpful rant......I couldn't figure out how to just delete the post....

Edited April 27, 2022 by Nash_12South