The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Luvemtall]

I don’t see people commuting in a snowstorm on a bike, or walking more then a mile everyday to work. Yes they are forms of transit, but for the average citizen , not a solution. Some of you are dedicated bike riders , and definitely need safe lanes to travel and sidewalks are a must for pedestrian safety , I’m all for that. But it’s not a transit alternative.

[PaulChinetti]

21 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

I don’t see people commuting in a snowstorm on a bike, or walking more then a mile everyday to work. Yes they are forms of transit, but for the average citizen , not a solution. Some of you are dedicated bike riders , and definitely need safe lanes to travel and sidewalks are a must for pedestrian safety , I’m all for that. But it’s not a transit alternative.

I'd push back on that, I'd consider biking if I felt safe at all. I'd love an electric bike but I have no desire to get mowed down by a driver who's drifted over into an unprotected bike lane. 

People aren't going to drive to work in our one snowstorm a year either. 

Example. 

[Luvemtall]

Paul, I hear where your coming from. I have nothing against bikes at all, and as I said safe bike lanes are a must. I’m just noting that it’s not something that the masses will flock to, and I find it weather dependent. 

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, Bos2Nash said:

Here is something to consider. Each time there is a study done on some form of transit - whether it be Bus, Rail, Bike, Pedestrian - and the plans for implementation get shot down, there essentially has to be a new study done to try and implement any new proposal. The information brought to any argument must be current and unfortunately must be updated for each failed attempt. Cooper has shown that he is wanting to work on building some reliability in the bus system with the transit centers (may be a futile effort as the routes are so inefficient) and expand to other modes of transit outside of passenger vehicles. Pedestrian and Bike are forms of transit and quite honestly are much easier to build/implement. Many of our neighborhoods within the UZO don't have sidewalks (who tf know why not) and developing a safe, connected bike system (outside of the greenways) is a very efficient transit system. The last transit referendum has left a bad taste in many folk's mouths after such a startling defeat and would take time to gather new information and actually pull in parties like TDOT (seeing as they mentioned they were never contacted for the previous referendum) to be part of the discussion.

I'm not an expert on grant money by any means, but grant money is typically very focused on intent. So if grants are for studies to update information, it can only be used on studies. There are also specific monies for implementation, but unfortunately we just have never gotten far enough to go for those. It's a frustrating system, yes, but if we want free money (because that is what grants are after all) we have to jump through the right hoops. 

The problem with bikes is that Nashville was near the bottom of the list as far as bikeable cities even with all the greenways and bike lanes there are. The problem with the bike lanes is they are not safe and never will be  with the crazy drivers in this city and the number of out of town tourist that have no idea how to drive in a city. Many of the tourist that visit Nashville are from small town USA. The highway markings and directional signs in the city SUCK and that may be an understatement. Buses will work if they run every 15 minutes and run within a half mile of most of the residents, but that is not in Coopers plan. You need a good sidewalk system in place for a good bus transit system and it works much better with a grid system too and not a spoke and hub like we have. Copers bus plan was doomed to fail from the start because of those reasons. He did not want to put the money needed, the correct plan in place to make the system viable. He just want a cheap plan in place to say he has a plan. Metro is huge and not well suited for a large bus system. If it were just the urban services district then maybe, but it is not. You will still have masses of traffic coming in from other parts of the county and outlying counties as well. There is no cooperation from the other counties as far as a regional transit system in place to speak of.  It's still a mess and will be unless the state comes in and takes control and shows leadership and there is no leadership in the state regarding this.

Most any transit system in the country relies on grant money, so Nashville is not unique in that respect. Transit is not designed to make money as it is a service like garbage or anything else. When you get the to point of gridlock, then it is the survival of the economic vitality of the city you have to worry about. Many of the state politicians are too blinded by their own reelection bids and donors contributions to see past that. Once these large companies that have a vested interest in the survival of Nashville's future start lining their palms with money, things will change. It does not matter which party they are in. We all know how the system works. All politicians go in thinking they can change the system, but the systems changes them in the long run.

TDOT will do all kinds of studies with Metro, but the state will probably never fund anything because of the politics involved from small town TN until the money start to flow into the palms of the greedy. It's just like the Titans funding, all parties had a vested interest  seeing that move forward.

[Bos2Nash]

I'm going to put this here, because the study that sparked this conversation has a very concentrated scope in terms of are they are studying. This study area does make walking/biking part of the "mass" transit discussion.

Quote

The study area includes neighborhoods inside the loop formed by Interstate 40, Interstate 65 and Interstate 24, with a half-mile buffer around that area. This includes areas like downtown, Germantown, the East Bank, the Gulch, Buena Vista and others.

There isn't anything technically wrong with what folks are saying in regards to people making the choice to live further outside the core and then commuting in. Part of that choice is traffic. It is also why transit should be considered more of an "equalizer" rather than a "congestion reducer". Transit will never alleviate congestion because there will always be more cars/trucks willing to fill that space.

Blaming Cooper for this problem is a laughable thing because he is actually getting things implemented, albeit very small elements, but nonetheless he is working to improve a broken system while also keeping an eye on the future. Mayor Briley said when the transit referendum failed that it would take about 4 years for another transit plan to even be considered and we just passed that threshold. Briley lost the election, so Cooper took a different approach to the failed approach. 

Biking in this city is terrifying! And needs to be improved for the folks that live in and around the core. That is what this study's intent is. I ride my bike a couple times a month from my house the 2 miles into the office and neither of the routes I take have any form of bike lane on it. We have had comprehensive bike lane projects get shot down because some companies like Moxy Lower Broadway didn't like the possibility of losing a valet lane (even though they have no problem with valet queues and ubers blocking the entire street). We have four bridges that cross from East Nashville into downtown, the ONLY one that has a bike lane on it is the freaking KVB Bridge!! This isn't Copper's fault, but rather his administration is working on the incremental improvement. 

We have failed multiple times at implementing a larger overall system. The unfortunate reality of our situation is we are going to have to focus on very small, incremental progress - ie Pedestrian and Bike improvements - first before getting up to the shiny system that stretches county wide. If nothing else because those smaller elements are much more attainable within the funding mechanisms for Metro. The state clearly has no interest in helping Metro, but rather want to help the counties surrounding Metro (and their commuting residents) by idolizing the interstates around Dallas. 

[GregH]

I would argue that unless you work from home or have a parking spot right next to your desk, "pedestrian" is actually the MOST-massive of transits and most people are pedestrians for at least part of their commute, though the % will vary.

 

edit: I guess I'm overstating that. But still, if you have to cross a street or walk on a sidewalk to get from your car to your building, you share concerns with the pedestrian mode.

Edited May 11, 2022 by GregH

[12Mouth]

49 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

The problem with bikes is that Nashville was near the bottom of the list as far as bikeable cities even with all the greenways and bike lanes there are. The problem with the bike lanes is they are not safe and never will be  with the crazy drivers in this city and the number of out of town tourist that have no idea how to drive in a city.

See, I don't think this is true (if I'm reading "bike lanes" to imply all bike infrastructure) .  Infrastructure can really do a lot to account for crazy drivers and make most people feel safe. I ride an ebike every day to work in an area with reasonably good (but still problematic infrastructure) and most drivers on most days are pretty good. I completely believe that if we decided to build high quality lanes from beginning to end, people will absolutely ride them in large numbers. Ebikes are really a game changer - they outpaced electric car sales last year.  I'm talking about infrastructure built for everyday people - even kids - that is completely connected. Imagine if there was a tree-lined greenway median running down West End to downtown. If they ever build the 440 greenway, that would be another example. Will this stuff every be politically viable? I don't know, but I do think it is a whole lot easier to sell nice urban greenways - even if ambitious and expensive, then it is to sell a bus or a stripe of paint on the ground that nobody likes.  We aren't too far away from actually being able to connect some of the limited high quality infrastructure we already have.

The problem right now is that lots of people say things like, "I would ride xx route except when I get to xx street" due to a lack of high quality connected infrastructure. So, the vast majority of people who want to ride don't do it because they don't feel safe and specific points in the journey. So, we have lots of empty bike lanes and people complaining that nobody would ever ride a bike. Except, go to a greenway and they are everywhere. 

Will usage go down in the winter? Totally. Is this an option for everyone? Absolutely not. Is this a substitute for mass transit? No. But building infrastructure that is totally separated from cars has been enormously popular around the world and we are already at a point where I can ebike most places in a 3 mile radius from downtown just about as fast as I could drive when you account for parking. At some point in the next decade, it will be faster (at least during certain times of the day). And the long term costs of high quality bike infrastructure are WAY cheaper than mass transit.

The one thing we know for sure is that while small things can be done on the margins, cars are not scalable and traffic is going to get worse.

[nashville born]

51 minutes ago, GregH said:

I would argue that unless you work from home or have a parking spot right next to your desk, "pedestrian" is actually the MOST-massive of transits and most people are pedestrians for at least part of their commute, though the % will vary.

This feels  like playing on a technicality.  I drive 8.5 miles from my residence to a parking deck and then walk one block to my office.  Yes, part of my commute was pedestrian, yet the overwhelming lion's share of it was not.  That "technicality" misses the spirit of "mass transit" in my opinion.

[smeagolsfree]

I used to ride my bike in Nashville in the bike lanes but do not any longer because I do not feel safe anywhere inside the 440 loop or any of the designated bike lanes around town. Too many close calls and speeding drivers. The greenways are OK, but are too crowded with pedestrians, dog walkers, skate boarders, baby strollers, and scooters that are not really supposed to be there. There are also a lot of bike riders that do not know the rules themselves, not to mention all of the homeless folks that make a lot of people feel uncomfortable on some of those segments. Ask the folks in West Meade about that, not to mention the stretch that runs from Germantown to Metro Center. There have been times I thought I was going to get mugged.

[12Mouth]

5 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

The greenways are OK, but are too crowded with pedestrians, dog walkers, skate boarders, baby strollers, and scooters that are not really supposed to be there.

So I guess in a weird way this is actually my point. When you build high quality completely separate infrastructure for non-cars, people (even those that are not supposed to be there) show up. I think this is a good thing, ultimately. It is easy to make an argument against an empty bad unprotected bike lane on a 35+ mph street, but far more difficult to criticize a high quality option. Let’s see how these 12th S. lanes end up. I suspect that the unprotected last piece connecting to to gulch will be enough to significantly reduce usage, but we’ll see.

[AUNash]

I agree that Nashville could do way better on making roadways safer for cyclists. But there are some of us who make the best of what we have. I live in West Meade, and I regularly commute by bike down to my office in the Truist building. From West Meade, I take the bike lane on post road to White Bridge. I can cross at the traffic light there and hop on the Richland Creek greenway over to Sylvan Park. Neighborhood streets through Sylvan Park connect me to the I-440 greenway, which runs along the 440 right of way and then underneath to pop out right at the north end of Centennial Park by HCA. From there, I take Patterson through the Medical Center area, so these are low volume roads as well. I do have to pop up onto Church for about three blocks to cross I-40 by the NES building. Those couple of blocks are the hard part — the only real heavy traffic/cycle unfriendly few minutes of my whole trip. Once I get across 40, there’s a bike lane along Church. Then I can get over to the bike lane on Commerce and I’m good. I do worry about traffic a bit, and I really wish the city could do something to make the crossing over 40 safer. But otherwise I can get all the way from West Meade to the CBD on a pretty pleasant route. I’m grateful for the Richland Creek greenway, which lets me avoid having to get on Harding/ West End.

[MLBrumby]

If you check my previous posts on viable transit routes, you’ll see I’ve suggested a route from commerce street, through NY (between the pinnacle tower and the soon to be built residential tower and then I’ve porter… the nicer the downtown i40 canyon with a dedicated bridge then over to connect to Hayes and then down to 21st…. And then splitting N-S, etc.  the bridge would be designed to accommodate dedicated bus (eventual LRT) and bike traffic. Perfect for your commute. This idea predated the announced plan for NY; so I don’t know now if I can be incorporated into what they’re doing now.

Edited May 12, 2022 by MLBrumby

[KJHburg]

Next time a vote comes up about transit in Nashville show them this.  I do agree you need to get started with at least one light rail line maybe not the big bang proposed before but something to show how it can work. 

From Chuck McShane of Costar about Charlotte and where apartments are being built.

""The move to the suburbs has gotten a lot of buzz lately; but there is more than one trend going on in Charlotte. Transit-oriented development remains substantial. More than 5,000 apartment units, about 30% of all units underway in the region, are within 1/2 mile of the Blue Line.""

 

[bnacincy]

The problem in Nashville is where to put it.

And where would it terminate?

[trillhaslam]

4 hours ago, bnacincy said:

The problem in Nashville is where to put it.

And where would it terminate?

West End or Charlotte corridor to downtown to Murfreesboro corridor to serve the airport?

[smeagolsfree]

The BNA/Downtown line will likely get built regardless of what happens with transit, IMO. That will somehow be funded through Metro, BNA, & MCC. Thats just a guess. All of the sudden land on Murfreesboro Pike will get very expensive very fast.

As far as where a next line could go, just take your pick, but it should be the heaviest traveled corridor. One of you guys should know which one that is.

[markhollin]

Walsh Road extension and bridge over Brown's Creek update.

Looking east from intersection of Wedgewood Ave. and Rains Ave:

Looking west from Craighead St., 1/2 block north of Seminole Ave:

[Nashvillain]

On 5/11/2022 at 11:13 AM, smeagolsfree said:

The problem with bikes is that Nashville was near the bottom of the list as far as bikeable cities even with all the greenways and bike lanes there are. The problem with the bike lanes is they are not safe and never will be  with the crazy drivers in this city and the number of out of town tourist that have no idea how to drive in a city. Many of the tourist that visit Nashville are from small town USA. The highway markings and directional signs in the city SUCK and that may be an understatement. Buses will work if they run every 15 minutes and run within a half mile of most of the residents, but that is not in Coopers plan. You need a good sidewalk system in place for a good bus transit system and it works much better with a grid system too and not a spoke and hub like we have. Copers bus plan was doomed to fail from the start because of those reasons. He did not want to put the money needed, the correct plan in place to make the system viable. He just want a cheap plan in place to say he has a plan. Metro is huge and not well suited for a large bus system. If it were just the urban services district then maybe, but it is not. You will still have masses of traffic coming in from other parts of the county and outlying counties as well. There is no cooperation from the other counties as far as a regional transit system in place to speak of.  It's still a mess and will be unless the state comes in and takes control and shows leadership and there is no leadership in the state regarding this.

Most any transit system in the country relies on grant money, so Nashville is not unique in that respect. Transit is not designed to make money as it is a service like garbage or anything else. When you get the to point of gridlock, then it is the survival of the economic vitality of the city you have to worry about. Many of the state politicians are too blinded by their own reelection bids and donors contributions to see past that. Once these large companies that have a vested interest in the survival of Nashville's future start lining their palms with money, things will change. It does not matter which party they are in. We all know how the system works. All politicians go in thinking they can change the system, but the systems changes them in the long run.

TDOT will do all kinds of studies with Metro, but the state will probably never fund anything because of the politics involved from small town TN until the money start to flow into the palms of the greedy. It's just like the Titans funding, all parties had a vested interest  seeing that move forward.

I know Bos2Nash has already rebutted some of the points here, but another piece of this is that Nashville does not have dedicated funds for transit. WeGo is funded via the General Fund, just like every other service that Metro provides. Cooper has at least raised WeGo's budget, but this funding method will never be sufficient to create and maintain a level of service that is needed. But as Bos2Nash pointed out, Cooper's admin is prioritizing and implementing improvements within the limited (and annually unpredictable) scope of its budget.  

I'm a bit optimistic in terms of bike lanes. Most of the current implementation is trash. Even the "protected" lanes are laughable in creating the kind of safe cycling infrastructure that would entice more people to ride. But... it's a start. Hopefully, Nashville will continue to build out bike infrastructure 1.0 and then maybe survey what's working and what's not working, seriously study best practices (the Netherlands) and then implement better infrastructure in version 2.0. 

[GregH]

I’ve said it a bunch of times and people (who are wrong) disagree with me but BNA-Downtown would be an expensive waste. At least until we already have an existing network to tie it into. It would be useless for the huge majority of Nashville taxpayers (a small % of Nashvillians fly regularly and a small % of those flyers have any interest of starting and ending their trip downtown). And many out of towners would not find it useful either (think about where many of the airbnbs are that we like to complain about).
 

If a normal commuter route in direction of the airport makes sense on its own merits maybe it would be worth connecting to the airport, but don’t spend a billion bucks so that some small fraction of rich people that don’t live here can get downtown somewhat cheaper.

[gannman]

There are people that live along the route that would utilize it. 

[Nathan_in_DC]

So I'm in town for a few days visiting family. We got news on the drive down that the wife spent time last week with a friend that tested positive for COVID, so we spent the first couple of days on isolation just-in-case to avoid spreading anything to my infant niece. That gave us plenty of time to do some foot exploring of town with the dog, though. I will start with a few goods. The sidewalks around Music Row and Hillsboro Village (where we've spent most of our time) are generally in good repair and the bike lanes are clearly marked, if not heavily used. But...there's a long way to go still.

Nashville is still focused on moving as many cars through the city as quickly as possible, which is a never ending, unwinnable battle. Crosswalk buttons don't have any precedence and do not extend lights, people feel like bike lanes are extra parking spaces, and the pedestrian infrastructure seems to be for nothing other than show in some places. I'm not even going to mention the functionally nonexistent public transit.

There is hope, but it's going to require a lot of squeaky wheels to get things done. I've tried a little while I've been here.

First issue is that the drivers here, be they locals, suburban soccer moms, or tourists, largely seem to be totally unaware of what's happening around them when it comes to pedestrian activity. Like, they don't seem to even consider how their actions will impact those around them beyond, "Will this truck hit me if I pull out right now?" Parking seems like an absolute free-for-all; so many people just refuse to walk a half a bock or cross a street, but instead will just park in a crosswalk or bike lane, or in a clearly marked no parking zone. I've called the police non-emergency line twice on cars parked illegally since yesterday (one blocking a crosswalk and another blocking a bike lane that was also used as a pedestrian lane for a closed sidewalk). Both cars were ticketed within 30 minutes. The Metro PD can't be everywhere at once, so concerned citizens need to be their eyes. Negative reinforcement and consequences for their actions are the only things some people will consider, and clearly they do not feel particularly at-risk for such consequences at this time.

I also used the hubNashville app to request a crosswalk be placed along Wedgewood between 21st and 17th, as this four block section that should be the heart of a walkable is impossible to safely cross. The city actually was responsive, as I got a call back today from a traffic engineer who wanted to talk about my request. He wanted my input as to whether or not 50 people cross this street daily... I advised that probably not, since there isn't a safe, marked crosswalk with pedestrian signals (a la the one on 21st in Hillsboro Village). He said that the city's current policy was not to put crosswalks on 4 Lane roads that don't have a signal or stop sign unless 50 people already cross there every day.

This seems like a huge problem, and the policy makes no logical sense. That's like saying they only will build a road if 50 cars are cutting across some farmers field every day. I asked him to explain how he thought that would be the case when there isn't a marked crosswalk, and that to my knowledge crossing there is technically jaywalking. He agreed, but said that the policy was the policy, but they would start the traffic study, but may hold off until the fall when school was in session to get a more accurate count that would take into account Vandy and Belmont students living in the area.

Anyway, the whole point of this is that instead of just complaining on here (though don't stop that...it's a good way to organize and communicate) we need to be using the tools available to communicate with the city government. Every report adds up, and when a dozen people have all requested a crosswalk or light or sidewalk or protected bike lane, then there is a good chance we'll get one!

Edited May 16, 2022 by Nathan_in_DC

[Deepdish53]

20 minutes ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

He said that the city's current policy was not to put crosswalks on 4 Lane roads that don't have a signal or stop sign unless 50 people already cross there every day.

This is a huge problem across the country for any non-automobile infrastructure. Bike lanes, sidewalks, crosswalks, transit infrastructure, etc. must all prove that upgrades are necessary by showing how many people are using the existing condition (i.e. "We can't build a bridge over this river until 200 people a day are swimming across to get to work"). Cars aren't held to the same standard and can get infrastructure upgrades done much easier - if we're going to make Nashville a more multi-modal environment we're going to have to start with shifting away from that mindset.

 

[Nathan_in_DC]

55 minutes ago, Deepdish53 said:

This is a huge problem across the country for any non-automobile infrastructure. Bike lanes, sidewalks, crosswalks, transit infrastructure, etc. must all prove that upgrades are necessary by showing how many people are using the existing condition (i.e. "We can't build a bridge over this river until 200 people a day are swimming across to get to work"). Cars aren't held to the same standard and can get infrastructure upgrades done much easier - if we're going to make Nashville a more multi-modal environment we're going to have to start with shifting away from that mindset.

 

Yep. Where I live in Alexandria, we had a crosswalk that was very heavily used, except the button was totally inaccessible to anyone with limited mobility or on a bicycle (it was mounted on the light post... surrounded by a mulched flower garden with five small flagstones leading to it). They eventually fixed it when I reminded them that it was blatantly in violation of the ADA, but the crosswalk indicators were totally out of service for almost three weeks. Another resident in the community publicly made the point that if the lights had been out they would have been fixed same-day, any car-centic infrastructure is put to the top of the list immediately, not slow rolled for three weeks. It's just an example of how cities may say they're trying to build a better, more walkable environment, but only pay lip service unless forced to do something.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Nathan_in_DC

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

I also used the hubNashville app to request a crosswalk be placed along Wedgewood between 21st and 17th, as this four block section that should be the heart of a walkable is impossible to safely cross. The city actually was responsive, as I got a call back today from a traffic engineer who wanted to talk about my request. He wanted my input as to whether or not 50 people cross this street daily... I advised that probably not, since there isn't a safe, marked crosswalk with pedestrian signals (a la the one on 21st in Hillsboro Village). He said that the city's current policy was not to put crosswalks on 4 Lane roads that don't have a signal or stop sign unless 50 people already cross there every day.

This seems like a huge problem, and the policy makes no logical sense.

100% illogical and completely agree with @Deepdish53in the fact that we need to change the approach in which cars are always given the priority in how spending and improvements are handed out.

What this tells me though is we need to have another traffic signal installed at Wedgewood and 19th with pedestrian priority on it.

1 hour ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

Nashville is still focused on moving as many cars through the city as quickly as possible, which is a never ending, unwinnable battle.

I think this is one of the biggest drawbacks to the countywide government. We are now fighting a battle to improve our urban core and rural residents who have no understanding of those requirements fight back against them because all they care about is getting in their 2-ton death mobile (using that phrase as an exaggeration only) and going as fast as possible from point A to point B. 

[PaulChinetti]

11 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

I think this is one of the biggest drawbacks to the countywide government. We are now fighting a battle to improve our urban core and rural residents who have no understanding of those requirements fight back against them because all they care about is getting in their 2-ton death mobile (using that phrase as an exaggeration only) and going as fast as possible from point A to point B. 

I spend a fair amount of time in Old Hickory Village it's where my in-laws live. Hadley Ave, the main road through the neighborhood has 1 ONE crosswalk on a one mile stretch of road. Depending on the time of the day it's either decently safe to cross wherever or a crapshoot. It's also a neighborhood where kids walk to school. So frustrating. 

Agreed wholeheartedly,  everywhere in the county needs to stop thinking about cars and take into account pedestrians more, the ones that aren't protected by a car!


At least they have sidewalks on the road.