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The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread


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Nashville_Bound-yes Nashvillians look at Metro buses as for the poor, minorities, etc. But do you want to know another reason why people don't use them?http://transportatio...an-walk-faster/There are very inefficient. Who cares if our Metro buses can take you from point A to Point B if they sit in traffic, have to stop and let in people... etcWhile I live in NYC, I eventually plan to move back to Nashville, and I know that buses that sit in traffic, whether it be NYC or Nashville, DO NOT WORK. That's why NYC is actually implementing BRT in the upper Manhattan regions. Also, Nashville has done a horrible job showing where the bus routes are, when they will arrive, etc.Do you seriously think Nashville is fine with its mass transit as it stands right now?

Edited by nashvylle
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Hey, I agree that busses have drawbacks. I do believe the app being developed to communicate 'real-time' information regarding bus location and time to arrival has great potential to address many of my issues with the existing service.

On average the travel time, on either the '3' or '5', from Broadway and 9th N to West End and Cherokee Blvd take me 17-20 minutes.

Do you have any numbers detailing travel time for the same route on the proposed EW-BRT? I fear that the with the EW-BRT planning stops 0.5 mile (on avg.) apart, actual time (including walking to the closest origin stop - riding the BRT - and walking from a terminus stop to you final destination) has the potential to be much greater that existing service.

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I agree that Nashville does need to improve the transportation system. At the same time there should be an honest cost/benefit analysis.

I think the study shows that by increasing existing MTA bus routes and logistics, Nashville can actually do more good for the people that 'need' the service for less money.

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I agree that Nashville does need to improve the transportation system. At the same time there should be an honest cost/benefit analysis.

I think the study shows that by increasing existing MTA bus routes and logistics, Nashville can actually do more good for the people that 'need' the service for less money.

True, but that's more of a "here and now" outlook. In 20 years, the people that "need" public transportation will be completely different than the ones that need it now. Something should be done now to prepare for the new demographic that will be using public transportation.

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Good discussion folks! Way to keep it somewhat civilized (Todd and John, but I am assuming you know each other because of first name basis! :P)!! I was afraid of this getting out of hand. Anyways, glad to hear both sides so we can figure out how to best move forward. I too have questions, but I am not sure I am going to be able to make any meetings since I am Knoxville atm. I might be in Tullahoma next week so I might swing up and participate, well at least be present. My questions are more pro. Well I have at least one question. Dunno about questions atm, may think of more later. Anyways, I was wondering about building parking areas or at least designating areas where people could drive in to park, then walk, say a block or two (I would think parking areas would be better a few blocks off the main drag so people could navigate close without necessarily using the main drag), to the nearest BRT station. I think this would help by avoiding condensing everything upfront so that some spillage could influence the nearby blocks.

So say I want to drive to the Vanderbilt area and eat at Satco from my parents house (technically Creive Hall, but nexus to Woodbine-Antioch-Brentwood too) for a late lunch. Then check a Preds game, then hit East Nashville up for a few drinks at a bar. Having parking areas like this will help those who may not think they would directly use the BRT. Not as familiar with other parts of town so I cannot think of any other scenarios without being off target.

Now this would be even better if I could take something from Nolensville Road/Harding Place, preferably a BRT/LRT line, to a downtown, then have options at other lines. Hopefully, this initial BRT will be idealistically and hugely successful, which I think it can, to produce travel options around the city like I've dreamed.

Another problem is people's perception of buses. However, the BRT is to be something "cool" so more people might be inclined to ride, but I am not sure people connect the "negatives" (price, initial construction, not "car-friendly"/alternated driving conditions, etc.) with this endeavor. Again the costs of this cool? I dunno, I feel a BRT system could do more than trying to spruce up the current system. Now I do agree the current system could use a lot of improving because we still need it and it needs something to provide a huge boost in attractiveness and visibility. The app will definitely help and I think the BRT lite will help too.

Nashville_Bound-

thanks for the info. I 100% prefer Lightrail or streetcars to BRT, but I also 100% prefer BRT to NOTHING. If we do not move ahead with BRT, we do not have a plan B. I am glad Mayor Dean is being proactive with mass transit (although I wish he chose streetcars vs. brt), but if BRT is not implemented, we go back to Nothing, and I hope we get a Mayor who is proactive on mass transit....

The streetcar system I preferred was $275mm projected to construct vs. $175mm for BRT, so I'm not sure how your argument that lightrail/streetcars are less expensive (maybe in the long run yes...). All your other points on ridership, I completely agree. However, cost is a huge concern and that's why I think Mayor Dean chose BRT.

I hope if we implement BRT, it will someday lead to Lightrail. That would be an easier transition that doing nothing now, and then in who knows how long we try to build Lightrail, and many might say let's do BRT because it's cheaper upfront...

I just want SOMETHING. I don't think BRT is perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

I agree 100%. I'd rather have a full BRT line (not this lite crap) than nothing. I think it will be hard enough to get the support needed for the BRT as it is as we are already sensing. I also think the BRT will be turned into a LRT system down the road. No pun intended, :P.

Here is a critique of BRT from another transit group....

Question, are these BRT systems "true" of "full" BRT systems or are they various versions? If they are various versions, it may be hard to compare since many variables might be involved. For example, I don't think you could fairly compare the Gallatin and proposed Murfreesboro Rd. BRT lite to the proposed E/W since they are two different BRT type systems. It also seems many cities have successful systems and are planning on expansion soon. Seattle and Pittsburgh. Or are they pulling the wool over our eyes?

Hey, I agree that busses have drawbacks. I do believe the app being developed to communicate 'real-time' information regarding bus location and time to arrival has great potential to address many of my issues with the existing service.

On a lighter note! Haha. Here ya go. I think I will donate. The minimum is $10. Wanted to do $5 only, but whatever, to a good cause!!

Please join your friends at Transit Now for a baby (app) shower benefiting our efforts to bring a transit app to Nashville's bus system. When this app goes live, you'll be able to know exactly where and when the next bus will be arriving using real-time data. The bus will no longer be late or early... it will be exactly where it is!

Transit Now is raising funds to cover the costs of developing this app for both iPhone and for Android. So you could say, we're having twins.

Transit Now is registered with Crowdrise for your online donations!

http://www.crowdrise...sitnownashville

Bus Route #4 is only one block away!

Edited by timmay143
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On average the travel time, on either the '3' or '5', from Broadway and 9th N to West End and Cherokee Blvd take me 17-20 minutes.

Do you have any numbers detailing travel time for the same route on the proposed EW-BRT? I fear that the with the EW-BRT planning stops 0.5 mile (on avg.) apart, actual time (including walking to the closest origin stop - riding the BRT - and walking from a terminus stop to you final destination) has the potential to be much greater that existing service.

I think some people in Austin have the same issue. They are planning to replace (I think replace, maybe not, maybe they will still have the regular bus routes too, can't remember) a couple of regular routes with a BRT system. I don't think it is a "full" BRT system like the E/W connector is supposed to be, but there were concerns with no time savings even though there were time savings claimed by their transit authority.

Friendly reminder:

Public meeting tonight at the East Park Community Center for E/W connector - 5:30PM

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I think some people in Austin have the same issue. They are planning to replace (I think replace, maybe not, maybe they will still have the regular bus routes too, can't remember) a couple of regular routes with a BRT system. I don't think it is a "full" BRT system like the E/W connector is supposed to be, but there were concerns with no time savings even though there were time savings claimed by their transit authority.

Friendly reminder:

Public meeting tonight at the East Park Community Center for E/W connector - 5:30PM

By that logic, subways and light rail would be less timely than regular buses, which isn't the case. Running in their own lanes with preferential signalling, they will be much more efficient than a standard bus. There may be a bus stop closer to my office building here in Philadelphia, but taking the line that follows roughly the same route as the Market Frankford subway/el takes much longer, even if I have to walk further to and from the subway stops at my origin and destination. Plus, it's more reliable, follows a predictable route, and has more regular service than a traditional bus line.

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Hey, I agree that busses have drawbacks. I do believe the app being developed to communicate 'real-time' information regarding bus location and time to arrival has great potential to address many of my issues with the existing service.

On average the travel time, on either the '3' or '5', from Broadway and 9th N to West End and Cherokee Blvd take me 17-20 minutes.

Do you have any numbers detailing travel time for the same route on the proposed EW-BRT? I fear that the with the EW-BRT planning stops 0.5 mile (on avg.) apart, actual time (including walking to the closest origin stop - riding the BRT - and walking from a terminus stop to you final destination) has the potential to be much greater that existing service.

I'm with you. Several of the virtues of BRT can be accomplished without ripping apart West End for dedicated lanes - e.g., more/nicer/cleaner/quieter buses, better/fewer bus stops with real-time information, easier fare collection, and increased marketing. I don't think we should even get to the question of whether Metro can afford the BRT if we are paying $150 million to shave a couple minutes off a commute.

Currently, getting across the river takes a stupid amount of time because of the required transfer at the downtown terminus---you sit idle at the station longer than in traffic. So, at the BRT forum, I'd like to see what we're actually paying for---i.e., a cost benefit analysis that addresses how much trip time the proposed East/West BRT would save from White Bridge to Five Points versus creating a direct route without dedicated lanes. If there is a significant improvement over the hypothetical direct route without dedicated lanes, then it would make the BRT proposal more attractive (to me at least).

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This is why naysayers get such a bad rap, especially on here. At least be informed. I am I wrong or is the MCC not already covered (at least not by "taxpayers")?? At least why no, instead of no, no, no more spending. I guess there is going to need to be a clear breakdown of benefits. It seems many already have their minds made up too (both for and against) so I am not sure anything is going to help. Of course we're only getting second clips from the story. Any one on here go? From Fox News 17:

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By that logic, subways and light rail would be less timely than regular buses, which isn't the case. Running in their own lanes with preferential signalling, they will be much more efficient than a standard bus. There may be a bus stop closer to my office building here in Philadelphia, but taking the line that follows roughly the same route as the Market Frankford subway/el takes much longer, even if I have to walk further to and from the subway stops at my origin and destination. Plus, it's more reliable, follows a predictable route, and has more regular service than a traditional bus line.

Yeah, I agree. Here is the article.

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/metrorapid-bus-service-not-so-rapid-not-expected-2183494.html

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What would be awesome in this situation would be if they would string overhead catenaries and buy trolleybuses. Not only would these be infinitely cheaper to run and reduce diesel emissions along the route, it would be one step closer to converting it to a light rail line 10 or 20 years down the road.

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By that logic, subways and light rail would be less timely than regular buses, which isn't the case. Running in their own lanes with preferential signalling, they will be much more efficient than a standard bus. There may be a bus stop closer to my office building here in Philadelphia, but taking the line that follows roughly the same route as the Market Frankford subway/el takes much longer, even if I have to walk further to and from the subway stops at my origin and destination. Plus, it's more reliable, follows a predictable route, and has more regular service than a traditional bus line.

Volnova, you may be correct but I find it hard to imagine the EW-BRT saving more that 2-3 minutes of actual 'on-the-bus time' regarding the route mentioned.... dedicated lanes and all. And regarding frequency, with the '3' and '5' routes stacked we have service along the same corridor roughly every 10-15 minutes....

In summation, I am looking for a reason to get-on-board the EW-BRT but I need to see details -

1) What is the final projected cost and the breakdown Fed/State/Metro?

2) Who pays for cost overruns, if any?

3) What is the projected cost of ongoing operations?

4) How is metro paying for its share of the capital cost? Payroll tax? Property tax (special district or metro wide)?

5) How is metro going to pay for the projected ongoing cost of operating the EW-BRT? What percentage of ongoing ops will fares cover?

6) What impact will the EW-BRT have on existing MTA Bus service? Fares?Routes?Frequency?

7) Will it take me longer (EW-BRT vs. exiting MTS service down West End) and cost more money (both increased fare and a new tax) for me to get from point 'A' to point 'B'.

Answers to these questions will go a long way towards helping me form an opinion on supporting the project.

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What I find most disturbing about naysayers is their lack of information and the fact they don't take time to actually research. Whatever one feels about BRT versus LRT, taxes, land use management, etc...one cannot say or think that only the poor and disenfranchised use public transportation. That makes me wonder whether they ever travelled anywhere in the country.

My uncle, now deceased, was a Vice President with ATT in Manhattan, NYC. He spoke fluent Japanese and had a Ph.D in economics. He coined the phrase Input Output and taught at NYU and NYCC. (Had he actually copyrighted the phrase he would have become a very rich man but that is another story.)

He rode public transportation his entire life. He was far from poor or disenfranchised as the woman indicated in the video were the ridership demographic. I still have not watched the video.

The reason I am for the government taking the initiative to invest in transportation, infrastructure, pedestrian spaces, community development, land use management, developmental regulation, and urban development is because many if not most in the private sector will not. Unless there is large profit to be made, corporations and the private sector have no interest. The private sector has no interest in the public good, only what is profitable.

If you want to understand where my Socialism comes from it is that. American Capitalism is strictly about profit, not the common good. Yes, I am all for a large healthy skyline. I am all for profitable businesses, albeit not at the expense of the human species.

The problem I see with naysayers is the constant negativity and poor optimism. There seems to be nothing creative coming from those in opposition. Those who constantly and consistently don't want the government spending money on anything, are misguided, and they never realize how much city services they actually use. They use fire, police, roads, bridges and other city services, yet they complain when taxes go up.

This debate serves as an example of that negativity. Everything boils down to taxes and cost/benefit analysis rather than what is good for the citizens of the city. Some say buses will break down. So do trains and cars, and good luck getting out of a train when it breaks down or is compromised! If you think people are upset about BRT, wait until an elevated train system blocks their view, or has a support pier in their front yard.

Some people have to complain about everything. Some people are never excited about everything. Most that complain are the old people who will be dead soon anyway and it won't effect them. These same naysayers complain about the housing projects, but they never invest in the human community in those projects to develop their skills and get them out of the projects because it is not profitable.

My dad is 77 and he complains about taxes yet he does not pay any. He watches hours of Fox News (and never gets an opposing viewpoint) and believes all the government wants to do is raise his taxes, the ones he does not pay. He was against the MCC and believes it is all being built on taxpayer money that is going to come out of his pocket. He does not believe its coming out of tourist taxes and he does not believe the Omni is being privately financed.

That seems to be the prevailing sentiment of his age group as I hear him talk with his friends. I remember talking to Charlie Tygard about the Sounds Struever Brothers Project years ago in regards to the new baseball stadium being built on the Thermal Site. He said senior citizens were concerned about taxes and a further walk from their cars! Guess what? They won! No Sounds baseball stadium 10 years later!

The naysayers get a victory once in awhile, but the progressives and people who want the city to grow and flourish win most of the battles. We got the Titans and LP Field, We got the Bridgestone Arena and the Predators. We got the MCC. We got Music City Central.

We will probably win this one, but we just have to let the naysayers have their time, and then when they die and fade away, we will enjoy what they hated. We will enjoy what they fought so hard to defeat . We will grow and prosper. Remember Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained!

MT

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"If you want to understand where my Socialism comes from it is that. American Capitalism is strictly about profit, not the common good. Yes, I am all for a large healthy skyline. I am all for profitable businesses, albeit not at the expense of the human species."

As has been stated, Nashville has a fleet of busses and the BRT route already has bus service. How is the species suffering without BRT? The cost, including inevitable overruns, will be a quarter of a billion dollars, and ridership cannot pay for it alone. So a source of tax money has to be found, and it will come out of the funding for those things we expect from government - police, firefighting, transportation infrastructure, etc.

NashvilleBound earlier qouted an article that correctly noted the lack of inter-suburban public transit, so those people don't work it into their daily routine. So here's my BRT plan for a more practical implementation:

An East-West route should go through the southern suburbs, roughly along Briley Parkway - Woodmont - White Bridge Road.

Why?

Reason 1: Get middle class using busses to get where they want to go. Such a route goes through many fairly dense neigborhoods full of retirees and housewives who don't go downtown regularly but spend a lot of money. It also runs through many huge shopping and business areas - Nashville West, Belle Meade, Green Hills, One Hunderd Oaks, and even the airport as an eastern terminus and whatever gets built in Bells Bend as a western terminus. There are tens of thousands of people living withing a half mile of that route, and thousands more can fit.

Reason 2: Increase density along BRT route. That's one reason for building it to begin with. There has been densification in the Belle Meade area with the addition recently of several huge developments. Green Hills is likewise getting busier. 100 Oaks has huge potential. And, of course, a May-Town-like entity is possible across the river from Nashville West. And if you've been watching the neighborhoods along Woodmont you've seen home after home pulled down to put four or more units in its place. This area of town is growing but due to circulation is facing growing pains. Reliable public transportation along this route would assist and even accelerate growth, most of which would be densification in the form of more homes per lot, more condominiums, and more officees/workpaces in the commercial nodes.

Reason 3: No existing service. This proposal places BRT in a decades-old transportation pattern of people moving east-west through the southern part of the city in their daily and weekly routines. This is where people who don't want to live in the urban core want to live. Public transportation enables people, say, in the retired teacher's tower in Green Hills, to go almost anywhere they normally would drive. It would allow other such homes for retirees who want to remain independent, people that the suburbs are filled with but not necessarily who you want living downtown, to live yards from the BRT where they can get to the grocery store and the hospital.

Reason 4: Won't have nearly the negative impact on rush-hour traffic as the proposed route because it runs perpedicular to commuter routes, not down commuter lanes.

Edited by Shuzilla
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ha, well the Nashville Transit Now Facebook Page just banned me and erased the very same questions that I posted above.

I always find it telling when an organization lives life in an echo chamber. What does it tell? Well that an organization has no faith in its own espoused arguments ...

Edited by Guest
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ha okay so I just called the number listed for Nashville Transit Now FB page and Dave Keiser, the rudest individual that I have dealt with in quite some time, proceeded to 'show' his small-minded ass... ha

I now see why people move to the 'burbs

Edited by Guest
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Todd, you are one of my good friends! I would never ban you! I still would never move back to the 'burbs again. The problem with any online forum is anonymity. That is why I encourage people to attend the meets. I am sure this guy would not ban you if you met in person.

I appreciate the civil discourse. I may be the only Socialist/Collectivist, but we have good discussions. Now back to work!

MT

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ha, well the Nashville Transit Now Facebook Page just banned me and erased the very same questions that I posted above.

I always find it telling when an organization lives life in an echo chamber. What does it tell? Well that an organization has no faith in its own espoused arguments ...

ha okay so I just called the number listed for Nashville Transit Now FB page and Dave Keiser, the rudest individual that I have dealt with in quite some time, proceeded to 'show' his small-minded ass... ha

I now see why people move to the 'burbs

That's really unfortunate and I am saddened to hear this. Maybe he/they have been bombarded with negative nancies and was having a bad day and you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edit: I met him once, and he was very nice. I saw him at Earth Day at Centennial Park, and he gave me a free Transit Now t-shirt cause he said he saw that I posted on their facebook page.

Edited by timmay143
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That woman on the video was a bitter old thing! The irrationally negative people always come out first, you can't let them set the conversation.

As for a woodmont/green hills line, that would be great, but where would you put it? Woodmont between Harding Rd and Franklin/8th is only two lanes wide and full of affluent, change-resisting and lawyered up people.

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"If you want to understand where my Socialism comes from it is that. American Capitalism is strictly about profit, not the common good. Yes, I am all for a large healthy skyline. I am all for profitable businesses, albeit not at the expense of the human species."

As has been stated, Nashville has a fleet of busses and the BRT route already has bus service. How is the species suffering without BRT? The cost, including inevitable overruns, will be a quarter of a billion dollars, and ridership cannot pay for it alone. So a source of tax money has to be found, and it will come out of the funding for those things we expect from government - police, firefighting, transportation infrastructure, etc.

NashvilleBound earlier qouted an article that correctly noted the lack of inter-suburban public transit, so those people don't work it into their daily routine. So here's my BRT plan for a more practical implementation:

An East-West route should go through the southern suburbs, roughly along Briley Parkway - Woodmont - White Bridge Road.

Why?

Reason 1: Get middle class using busses to get where they want to go. Such a route goes through many fairly dense neigborhoods full of retirees and housewives who don't go downtown regularly but spend a lot of money. It also runs through many huge shopping and business areas - Nashville West, Belle Meade, Green Hills, One Hunderd Oaks, and even the airport as an eastern terminus and whatever gets built in Bells Bend as a western terminus. There are tens of thousands of people living withing a half mile of that route, and thousands more can fit.

Reason 2: Increase density along BRT route. That's one reason for building it to begin with. There has been densification in the Belle Meade area with the addition recently of several huge developments. Green Hills is likewise getting busier. 100 Oaks has huge potential. And, of course, a May-Town-like entity is possible across the river from Nashville West. And if you've been watching the neighborhoods along Woodmont you've seen home after home pulled down to put four or more units in its place. This area of town is growing but due to circulation is facing growing pains. Reliable public transportation along this route would assist and even accelerate growth, most of which would be densification in the form of more homes per lot, more condominiums, and more officees/workpaces in the commercial nodes.

Reason 3: No existing service. This proposal places BRT in a decades-old transportation pattern of people moving east-west through the southern part of the city in their daily and weekly routines. This is where people who don't want to live in the urban core want to live. Public transportation enables people, say, in the retired teacher's tower in Green Hills, to go almost anywhere they normally would drive. It would allow other such homes for retirees who want to remain independent, people that the suburbs are filled with but not necessarily who you want living downtown, to live yards from the BRT where they can get to the grocery store and the hospital.

Reason 4: Won't have nearly the negative impact on rush-hour traffic as the proposed route because it runs perpedicular to commuter routes, not down commuter lanes.

Great points. However, for what ever reason some people have pushed for this corridor so it is the first getting the attention. Hopefully, this will spur other opportunities for other corridors getting the same treatment and service.

I definitely would like to see something better down Nolensville Rd. and Harding Place. Something down Harding Place would also help connectivity to the airport.

I never got the idea/reasons for loop off Briley Parkway?!?!?! Thompson Lane isn't bad. In fact, it is good for transit opportunities but bad for cars while the northern stretch of Briley is pure car oriented as a highway system, which is fine, it serves its purpose. However, Woodmont just screws that whole loop thing up. Same for Harding Place. Once you hit Battery Lane it's over until you come out to the crossings of Hillsboro Rd., then maybe Belle Meade Blvd, then cutting through to Hwy 100/70 split. I can understand preserving the neighborhoods, especially since it is more upscale, but I still don't get the transportation idea.

I guess the south loop is supposed to be 440. Yeah, I've always wondered how to improve the area of Lealand, Battery/Harding, and Granny White, which is bordered by some greats, Woodmont, Franklin Rd. and Hillsboro. You would probably have to run some small shuttles around the place in order to connect to bigger lines.

I guess a good loop for transit options would be Franklin Rd. to Berry Hill, then east on Thompson Ln to Briley and the Airport, maybe(?) down Elm Hill Pike to Donelson Pike to Harding and back to Franklin Rd with major connections to Nolensville, Murfreesboro Pike, and Frankin as spurs.

Then you could pull off a loop off the E/W down White Bridge Rd. back up Charlotte into town.

Bellevue gets really screwed. They are in an awkward part of town cut off by Belle Meade and some low density. Could probably run something down 70 as an extended leg off E/W connector.

Just pipe dreaming.

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Friends,

Earlier this week, I rode the Cleveland HealthLine (full BRT but the traffic signalization was not working) and it is quite nice. The busses and stops look very cool. Easy to use and can cover five miles fairly quickly. I saw a good bit of recently comleted urban infill along the line. Opened in 2008 and is the prototype.

WW

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Finally watched the video. Naysayers always have negative things to say, and in the video the woman certainly had some blinded and uneducated views of who rides the bus. Thousands of bus riders work for Vanderbilt University and Medical Center. Vanderbilt pays for their fares to cut down on car traffic. I wonder how many doctors, lawyers and such ride the bus system she is so vehemently against?

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