The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[smeagolsfree]

1 hour ago, lmc123 said:

Isn't there already 6 lanes?

Yes, 6 lanes already. Nothing new to see here. So why the state is making a big deal of it is sort of pointless over 6 lanes. It is more to the point of a slap in the face of what the state is planning with the loop around Downtown. A few new enhancements but does nothing to improve the routes into and out of the core. It just more of our Governor and the State legislators trying to stick it to Nashville. Again, the rural parts of the state are more important than the goose that is laying their golden egg and paying their salaries. You can put all the money you want into Podunk County TN you want too, but when the same pathetic state government closes their hospitals, and they don't complain that loudly and only want four lane roads in return then somethings wrong. Industry will not come to a place where the average education is less than a high school diploma, there is no health care, the state representative can't spell his name with the help of a dictionary. Where are the people in those counties moving???? they are going to where the jobs are, (cities) and they are staying in that county unless they are old and have nowhere else to go. From the last census 29 rural counties lost population and another 4 were flat. That is full a third of the counties in the state. Why would anyone throw good money after bad. If anything, some of these counties need to be consolidated into larger ones. At some point the state will end up having to bail some of these counties out because they will not have the tax base to pay for their upkeep. New roads and services will not help. 

At some point it will be time to pay the piper and they will have found they have not only shot themselves in the foot once but emptied their entire AR15 magazine into their leg.

[nashmoney]

6 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

Yes, 6 lanes already. Nothing new to see here. So why the state is making a big deal of it is sort of pointless over 6 lanes. It is more to the point of a slap in the face of what the state is planning with the loop around Downtown. A few new enhancements but does nothing to improve the routes into and out of the core. It just more of our Governor and the State legislators trying to stick it to Nashville. Again, the rural parts of the state are more important than the goose that is laying their golden egg and paying their salaries. You can put all the money you want into Podunk County TN you want too, but when the same pathetic state government closes their hospitals, and they don't complain that loudly and only want four lane roads in return then somethings wrong. Industry will not come to a place where the average education is less than a high school diploma, there is no health care, the state representative can't spell his name with the help of a dictionary. Where are the people in those counties moving???? they are going to where the jobs are, (cities) and they are staying in that county unless they are old and have nowhere else to go. From the last census 29 rural counties lost population and another 4 were flat. That is full a third of the counties in the state. Why would anyone throw good money after bad. If anything, some of these counties need to be consolidated into larger ones. At some point the state will end up having to bail some of these counties out because they will not have the tax base to pay for their upkeep. New roads and services will not help. 

At some point it will be time to pay the piper and they will have found they have not only shot themselves in the foot once but emptied their entire AR15 magazine into their leg.

I wonder if the politicians even know where the growth and declines are in the state. I was searching for population and demographic information and came across this site which seems to be fairly accurate using census data.

It amazes me how there hasn't been any real infrastructure improvements and investments in alternate modes of transportation by the state in the last 40+ years. Yes we have had some widening and repavements here and there, but those things were already 10 years past due. I guess that's the pay as you go method. 

https://usafacts.org/data/topics/people-society/population-and-demographics/our-changing-population/state/tennessee?endDate=2021-01-01&startDate=2010-01-01

[sambo]

Minimum of $51.5 million for this? I've seen some cities have built streetcar lines for 2 or 3 miles recently for $100 million with most of the funding from the feds. Could especially use one when the Midtown area buildings get built in the future

[smeagolsfree]

West TN is in bad shape as far as population decline goes. I think the growth population trend for West Tn will move further east towards Jackson and continue to decline in NW TN. I also see Clayborn Cambell and Hancock dropping more as well. I will probably add Grainger, Union, & Morgan into that mix as well. 

Carter lost a little and Cocke lost more than a little, I think. I don't remember what Johnson was, but it had to be flat. There is nothing there but trees, Mountain City, and the prison. If anything, they may be able to capitalize on some retirement population. It is 30 miles from everything.

[trillhaslam]

4 hours ago, sambo said:

Minimum of $51.5 million for this? I've seen some cities have built streetcar lines for 2 or 3 miles recently for $100 million with most of the funding from the feds. Could especially use one when the Midtown area buildings get built in the future

I saw this comment and thought no way this could be true, but it is. OKC Streetcar was $135m and Kansas City Streetcar was $102m.  A Broadway streetcar makes so much sense and would easily match or exceed many of its peers

[gannman]

58 minutes ago, trillhaslam said:

I saw this comment and thought no way this could be true, but it is. OKC Streetcar was $135m and Kansas City Streetcar was $102m.  A Broadway streetcar makes so much sense and would easily match or exceed many of its peers

I don't agree with the design of the bridge, but the bridge needed to be replaced anyway.

 

[UrbanWes03]

59 minutes ago, trillhaslam said:

I saw this comment and thought no way this could be true, but it is. OKC Streetcar was $135m and Kansas City Streetcar was $102m.  A Broadway streetcar makes so much sense and would easily match or exceed many of its peers

Doesn’t the state have a law prohibiting transit like that on state owned routes? Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be surprised…

[UrbanWes03]

5 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

West TN is in bad shape as far as population decline goes. I think the growth population trend for West Tn will move further east towards Jackson and continue to decline in NW TN. I also see Clayborn Cambell and Hancock dropping more as well. I will probably add Grainger, Union, & Morgan into that mix as well. 

Carter lost a little and Cocke lost more than a little, I think. I don't remember what Johnson was, but it had to be flat. There is nothing there but trees, Mountain City, and the prison. If anything, they may be able to capitalize on some retirement population. It is 30 miles from everything.

I wouldn’t be so sure about Union/Grainger considering they border Knox County. I live in Grainger county actually but in the City of Blaine which is literally 1 minute from the Knox County line and 25 min from downtown, and within the past few years a grocery store and other retail has popped up, with an apartment complex and a few townhomes. And a new subdivision being built right now. While I definitely believe the ends of those counties farthest from Knoxville will shrink, the areas closer to Knoxville, like where I live, and the end of Grainger county close to Morristown, will continue growing, albeit slower, due to the continued growth up towards those areas, only being 30 min from downtown, and having lakefront properties with very nice housing continuing to be developed. And from where I live, I can be all the way to Farragut or Sevierville within 35 min, and most areas of Knoxville within 30. I’m sure the suburbanization of those areas are gonna  continue to happen has Knoxville continues to experience the growth it is currently having. But only time will tell I suppose!

Edited January 21, 2023 by UrbanWes03

[KJHburg]

I have said this since I have started visiting Nashville annually.  Nashville is much more congested than many other cities.  Nashville residents lose more time in rush hour traffic than many of its peers like Charlotte,  Raleigh,  even Austin.  Nashville rush hour traffic is almost as bad as Atlanta's.   This is not news to many of you I know.  It does show the need for immediate road relief and other transit options.  

https://infogram.com/1pwxmkwrynd237cvnn79v99yn5u95679dn5?live

https://www.copilotsearch.com/posts/cities-that-lose-the-most-time-in-rush-hour-traffic/

Worst city for rush hour congestion?  NYC metro.  Best city out of 80?  Greensboro NC which is completing its new 47 mile complete beltway on Monday I-840.  

 

 

[MagicPotato]

At least with ATL, they're somewhat trying. ATL has a mediocre, but functional transit system. With how Nashville is growing, the traffic may end up worst in the next decade or so. That is if you're comparing the traffic ratio to city size.

[BnaBreaker]

2 hours ago, MagicPotato said:

At least with ATL, they're somewhat trying. ATL has a mediocre, but functional transit system. With how Nashville is growing, the traffic may end up worst in the next decade or so. That is if you're comparing the traffic ratio to city size.

Yeah, we have ZERO room to throw shade at ATL.  When they were our size in the 1970's they were already formulating a plan to build an extensive HEAVY rail system.  I mean say what you will about Atlanta, but they so far have been the only southern city to achieve that... AND they are in the process of building a complimentary light rail system to boot.  But our leaders are, apparently, perfectly happy to just let Nashvillians sit in traffic for the rest of their lives.  

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update.  Lots more massive beams and other materials being gathered on the Gulch Central site.

Looking east from 12th Ave. North, just north of Broadway:
 

[smeagolsfree]

12 hours ago, UrbanWes03 said:

I wouldn’t be so sure about Union/Grainger considering they border Knox County. I live in Grainger county actually but in the City of Blaine which is literally 1 minute from the Knox County line and 25 min from downtown, and within the past few years a grocery store and other retail has popped up, with an apartment complex and a few townhomes. And a new subdivision being built right now. While I definitely believe the ends of those counties farthest from Knoxville will shrink, the areas closer to Knoxville, like where I live, and the end of Grainger county close to Morristown, will continue growing, albeit slower, due to the continued growth up towards those areas, only being 30 min from downtown, and having lakefront properties with very nice housing continuing to be developed. And from where I live, I can be all the way to Farragut or Sevierville within 35 min, and most areas of Knoxville within 30. I’m sure the suburbanization of those areas are gonna  continue to happen has Knoxville continues to experience the growth it is currently having. But only time will tell I suppose!

You are right on those two. I had to go back and see as those both had a3.63% increase in the last census. I was trying to go off memory. duh! The ones to the north and the west are the ones that have the issue. I went into Morgan County and man was that depressing, and it has been years since I was in Hancock County. Frankly, it is just a hard to get to place and there is no reason to ever go there unless you want to visit the NPT station.

Upper E Tn including Unicoi, Johnson, Carter, & Cocke all lost population. Cocke County was a bit of a surprise since it is closer to the Sevierville/Gatlinburg area and could get some tourists draw, but that county has had trouble with crime since the 20's.  Newport has been plagued by organized crime for over a hundred years and was a hotbed of activity during prohibition for moonshining and prostitution, and more recently gangs and drugs. pretty sad.

Back to our transit issue, something is going to have to give here as far as cooperation from the state. The same disfunction can't continue.

[chc3]

One day for fun I looked at the TN state senate and house web pages and was appalled by the physical decrepitude and low educational levels of the solons from the rural districts. Not that many states are measurably better, but still. I also noticed that our governors are usually country club Republicans. They all seem to have fear and loathing for our blue city. I’m not sure I should’ve posted this since I’m sure it comes across as elitism.

[NissanvilleTitans]

I'd hope the whole Ford Oval city thing reverses the population loss and actually promotes growth in Memphis and Jackson. I'm rooting for them both. I actually really like both cities. They have the cool rockabilly vibe.

[UrbanWes03]

12 minutes ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

I'd hope the whole Ford Oval city thing reverses the population loss and actually promotes growth in Memphis and Jackson. I'm rooting for them both. I actually really like both cities. They have the cool rockabilly vibe.

Agreed. Maybe this will help them catch the wave of population increase that the rest of the state is getting. It doesn’t help that 3 of the 4 major cities in TN are all within 1.5-2.5 hours from each other with other growing, sizeable places, while Memphis and Jackson are kind of out by themselves and nearly 2-3 hours from Nashville alone. At least in East and Middle TN, there are other cities and towns dotted throughout like Cookeville, Crossville, Athens, etc. that actually have things in them and aren’t just another interstate exit town. When looking on 40 from Memphis to Nashville, besides Jackson and possibly Brownsville, there are literally no other towns that aren’t just a gas station and drive thru. 

[PruneTracy]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:21 AM, Luvemtall said:

So, that’s exactly the point. Just replace it with what’s already there! Don’t take the fact that it’s not functional for anything but moving vehicles across . Isn’t tearing it completely down and rebuilding it , the perfect time to “UPDATE “ it? Doesn’t matter that there’s Ramifications, get it done ! Now, while it’s totally disruptive to the daily traffic flow. This is the chance, the time to make the necessary changes to bring it into the current and future direction the city is moving! BUT NO , just spend the least amount to replace it with the same old thing. While they build 6 lane highways in the middle of nowhere in a county with 10,000 total people, just to satisfy some politicians whim. Now we will be stuck with this for the next 100 years ( 75 years lifespan + 25 years for planning) shameful!

The cost to change the typical section on the bridge is minimal compared to the cost of the replacement itself. All TDOT or Metro has to do is pull the planters and widen the sidewalk (which is fairly easy when the drainage can be accessed from below in the substructure) or simply restripe. There's nothing in the design that is constricting or holding back any future changes to the Broadway typical section, but again, the scope of this project is to replace the bridge, not to consider any large-scale changes to Broadway's typical section.

The only real restriction is that the bridge can't be any wider than it is currently due to the adjacent developments and Union Station's NRHP status.

By the way much of the cost of the bridge is due to maintenance of traffic and working around CSX, not the bridge replacement itself. Same bridge for a new road over a ditch in a rural or suburban area would be about a third to half as expensive. The delivery method (CM/GC) also carries risk that is priced in.

[PaulChinetti]

I've driven on 440 what feels like 100 times in the past week. Is there, has there ever been any talk to cap that? 

Seems like the southern section would be pretty easy to cap and turned into a green space. 

[MagicPotato]

19 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

Yeah, we have ZERO room to throw shade at ATL.  When they were our size in the 1970's they were already formulating a plan to build an extensive HEAVY rail system.  I mean say what you will about Atlanta, but they so far have been the only southern city to achieve that... AND they are in the process of building a complimentary light rail system to boot.  But our leaders are, apparently, perfectly happy to just let Nashvillians sit in traffic for the rest of their lives.  

That's the irony of it. Nashvillians want to claim that they don't want to end up being the next ATL, but the funny thing is that we are heading towards that route. A route that may possibly be worse than ATL 

[andywildman]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:18 PM, smeagolsfree said:

West TN is in bad shape as far as population decline goes. I think the growth population trend for West Tn will move further east towards Jackson and continue to decline in NW TN. I also see Clayborn Cambell and Hancock dropping more as well. I will probably add Grainger, Union, & Morgan into that mix as well. 

Carter lost a little and Cocke lost more than a little, I think. I don't remember what Johnson was, but it had to be flat. There is nothing there but trees, Mountain City, and the prison. If anything, they may be able to capitalize on some retirement population. It is 30 miles from everything.

Ford's BlueOval City plant in Stanton will probably slow or reverse some of that decline in the area between Memphis and Jackson along I-40, but wholly agreed that NW TN will continue to hollow out.

Edit: oops, saw this comment's already been made.

Edited January 23, 2023 by andywildman

[chc3]

2 minutes ago, andywildman said:

Ford's BlueOval City plant in Stanton will probably slow or reverse some of that decline in the area between Memphis and Jackson along I-40, but wholly agreed that NW TN will continue to hollow out.

I do love the bridge over the Mississippi in Dyersburg, though!

[markhollin]

Critics Dissatisfied With State's Plan to Rebuild Nashville's BroadwayViaduct:

https://www.nashvillescene.com/news/pithinthewind/critics-dissatisfied-with-state-s-plan-to-rebuild-nashville-s-broadway-viaduct/article_64410bea-9b39-11ed-972e-4ba6ca0cafaa.html

[applebees615]

Is there anything the city can do? It seems like a pieces have already been delivered.


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[markhollin]

4 minutes ago, applebees615 said:

Is there anything the city can do? It seems like a pieces have already been delivered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, the horse is not only out of the barn, it is way out in the back 40.  The deal is done and unfixable at this point. 

If people wanted to make a fuss about this, it should've been done at least 3 years ago when it was first announced.  But honestly, I don't think TDOT has much interest in what works best visually and/or functionally outside of the bare basics. 

[MLBrumby]

Someone mentioned the absurd space for a turn lane on the new viaduct, but could that be used for future LRT?