The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[BnaBreaker]

47 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Someone mentioned the absurd space for a turn lane on the new viaduct, but could that be used for future LRT? 

I don't think so, because I believe Broadway is a state highway, which means thanks to our backwards legislature, it is illegal to have any mass transit with dedicated lanes on state highways.  Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that a law that was passed back in 2014 when Nashville was trying to get it's AMP BRT plan off the ground?

[smeagolsfree]

10 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

I don't think so, because I believe Broadway is a state highway, which means thanks to our backwards legislature, it is illegal to have any mass transit with dedicated lanes on state highways.  Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that a law that was passed back in 2014 when Nashville was trying to get it's AMP BRT plan off the ground?

You guys can thank Lee Beaman for that who has now sold his property and left. He was the one that led the effort to stop the AMP that got the State legislature fired up. 

[Luvemtall]

After reading the last few posts, I’m taking extra Bp medicine and heading to a dark room !! Otherwise, I’m going to say things that won’t be good, and land me in a bad place! Backwards Legislature is way to nice of words. 

[smeagolsfree]

If it were the DEMS I would be just as upset. You do not pass things just in spite of. Unfortunately, both parties are guilty as charged on that front.

[Luvemtall]

Smeags, I agree . Things are not good in general, both sides have become like spoiled brat children. 

[markhollin]

More Lower Broadway bollard installation, this section between 3rd Ave. and 4th Ave.

Looking south from intersection of Broadway and 3rd Ave. South:




Looking SW from intersection of Broadway and 3rd Ave. South:

[markhollin]

Another Broadway Viaduct rendering:

[PaulChinetti]

I really like that short black railing on the bottom right. 

[Archibum]

2 hours ago, PaulChinetti said:

I really like that short black railing on the bottom right. 

Haha I love that this whole thing is so disappointing that the most positive thing we can say is that the short black railing is nice. 

[The Guardian of Memphis]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:18 PM, smeagolsfree said:

West TN is in bad shape as far as population decline goes. I think the growth population trend for West Tn will move further east towards Jackson and continue to decline in NW TN. I also see Clayborn Cambell and Hancock dropping more as well. I will probably add Grainger, Union, & Morgan into that mix as well. 

Carter lost a little and Cocke lost more than a little, I think. I don't remember what Johnson was, but it had to be flat. There is nothing there but trees, Mountain City, and the prison. If anything, they may be able to capitalize on some retirement population. It is 30 miles from everything.

We aren't in that bad of shape. I disagree with things moving towards Jackson. With I-269/385 (thanks TDOT) being in the Memphis area, there will be more growth around those areas. With Blue Oval city coming online, things are bound to improve. If there was a north/south interstate in west TN, things would be a whole lot better.  The world hasn't ended yet, so things can turn around in the blink of an eye - you all know that story all too well in Nashville. My hope, faith and belief will always be for the better, even though there's a "decline". 

[MidTenn1]

5 hours ago, The Guardian of Memphis said:

We aren't in that bad of shape. I disagree with things moving towards Jackson. With I-269/385 (thanks TDOT) being in the Memphis area, there will be more growth around those areas. With Blue Oval city coming online, things are bound to improve. If there was a north/south interstate in west TN, things would be a whole lot better.  The world hasn't ended yet, so things can turn around in the blink of an eye - you all know that story all too well in Nashville. My hope, faith and belief will always be for the better, even though there's a "decline". 

The census is an obsolete way of measuring the size of a city. It just counts the number of people who sleep in a house in the city and doesn't truly measure the daytime population. which may expand or shrink. It was a few years ago, but I was talking to a Jackson city official about some projects and he told me that Jackson is a regional city for most of West Tennessee as it attracts people coming to their jobs or shopping or even tourism. He told me that Jackson's true population during the day was 100,000 (compared to a little over 60,000 actual census measurement at the time). He said on weekends the city's population was closer 150,000 and on the weekend before Christmas there might be 250,000 shoppers and restaurant visitors.  Even though they returned to their homes around western Tennesse at night, during the day they required all the services provided to the citizens. They required police, fire, EMT protection and traffic control, water and sewer, and power, same as the counted citizens.  Jackson is a big city and is growing as a regional city. However, Jackson's gain is likely Brownsville's or Milan's and other town's loss.

I can't begin to imagine what Nashville 'real' population would be. And surprisingly, a Planner friend of mine recently told me Dickson was becoming a regional city for the area west of Nashville.

A lot of cities have a far bigger population than what the census says.

[smeagolsfree]

12 hours ago, The Guardian of Memphis said:

If there was a north/south interstate in west TN, things would be a whole lot better.

The only option there is a continuation of I 69 and the proposed transcontinental Hwy. I think it is slow going right now. The KY portion is slow going and this has been a dream for years and is now started to happen.

Interstate 69 Corridor Timeline (tn.gov)

[The Guardian of Memphis]

11 hours ago, MidTenn1 said:

The census is an obsolete way of measuring the size of a city. It just counts the number of people who sleep in a house in the city and doesn't truly measure the daytime population. which may expand or shrink. It was a few years ago, but I was talking to a Jackson city official about some projects and he told me that Jackson is a regional city for most of West Tennessee as it attracts people coming to their jobs or shopping or even tourism. He told me that Jackson's true population during the day was 100,000 (compared to a little over 60,000 actual census measurement at the time). He said on weekends the city's population was closer 150,000 and on the weekend before Christmas there might be 250,000 shoppers and restaurant visitors.  Even though they returned to their homes around western Tennesse at night, during the day they required all the services provided to the citizens. They required police, fire, EMT protection and traffic control, water and sewer, and power, same as the counted citizens.  Jackson is a big city and is growing as a regional city. However, Jackson's gain is likely Brownsville's or Milan's and other town's loss.

I can't begin to imagine what Nashville 'real' population would be. And surprisingly, a Planner friend of mine recently told me Dickson was becoming a regional city for the area west of Nashville.

A lot of cities have a far bigger population than what the census says.

Good for Jackson. Not pulling against them at all. They have a lot of amenities and I’m glad they’re on this side of the TN river. Not pulling against anyone to be honest. Mid Tenn has a lot of cities/towns to be proud of as well that have seen their fare share of investment. I don’t get caught up in stats and trends 100% of the time. It’s not the only way to gauge anything. Everything is subject to change. 

[markhollin]

New passenger rail routes connecting Nashville to Cincinnati, Chicago and Louisville have been submitted to the Federal Railroad Administration, another step in significantly expanding the region’s anemic Amtrak offerings.

In addition to service running north of Music City, Amtrak is exploring a line connecting Nashville with Atlanta and Chattanooga, according to its website.

The state is also exploring a passenger rail line that would link Chattanooga, Knoxville, Nashville and Memphis, according to WPLN. The proposal would use an Amtrak line.

According to The Tennessean, the Tennessee Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations is supposed to present a report by July 1 on the potential for passenger rail in the state.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2023/02/01/nashville-monopoly-suggest-local-spots-for-a-new-version-of-the-game/69860605007/


A Tennessee commission is studying passenger rail potential.  Here's what to know.

A bipartisan Tennessee commission to study the feasibility of passenger rail heard case studies from two other states last week, as the group prepares to issue a full report on their findings this summer.

"Boy, is Tennessee far behind here," Sen. Heidi Campbell, D-Nashville, said on Friday after hearing presentations from Virginia and North Carolina about their passenger rail infrastructure, noting Nashville is the third largest city in the U.S. without Amtrak service.

Amtrak shuttered its previous Nashville station in 1979. A current Amtrak line from Chicago to New Orleans stops daily in Memphis, but passenger rail is otherwise limited in the state.

n 2021, President Joe Biden signed a bipartisan infrastructure package, which set aside $66 billion for Amtrak services.

Amtrak previously proposed using a portion of the money to build a passenger railway connection from Nashville to Chattanooga to Atlanta. It would also build stations in Murfreesboro and Tullahoma.

The Tennessee Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations was tasked last year with preparing a full report on passenger rail potential in Tennessee. TACIR must report its findings to the state by July 1.

If Tennessee joined Amtrak's "state-supported" intercity passenger rail service, it could be eligible for federal appropriations that would cover a large bulk of early operating costs.

Nicole Bucich, Amtrak vice president of network development, said a Federal Railroad Administration grant can cover up to six years of operating costs for intercity services on a sliding scale. Amtrak administers the federal grant funds.

"This is a great opportunity for a state to build ridership demand," Bucich said. "The goal would be that after the six years, ridership is strong enough the gap between operating costs and revenue is getting smaller and smaller."

State studying passenger rail possibilities for BlueOval City

Tennessee is currently studying the potential for passenger trains from Memphis to BlueOval City, the new Ford Motor Company production campus about 40 miles from Memphis, with an eye on commuter transit.

"It's basically trying to get passenger rail to Memphis to Jackson, with a stop at BlueOval with a huge amount of workers," Dan Pallme, an assistant chief at the Tennessee Department of Transportation, said Friday.

Ford is interested in two train schedules a day, though the state is still studying how it might affect existing rail infrastructure for freight movement. The study should be done in the spring.

"There's a lot of things that need to be further evaluated," Pallme said.

More behind TheTennessean paywall here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2023/01/31/amtrak-tennessee-passenger-trains-expansion-commuter-rail-commission-studying-potential/69849022007/

New Amtrak map:
 

[Nathan_in_DC]

3 hours ago, markhollin said:

New passenger rail routes connecting Nashville to Cincinnati, Chicago and Louisville have been submitted to the Federal Railroad Administration, another step in significantly expanding the region’s anemic Amtrak offerings.

In addition to service running north of Music City, Amtrak is exploring a line connecting Nashville with Atlanta and Chattanooga, according to its website.

The state is also exploring a passenger rail line that would link Chattanooga, Knoxville, Nashville and Memphis, according to WPLN. The proposal would use an Amtrak line.

According to The Tennessean, the Tennessee Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations is supposed to present a report by July 1 on the potential for passenger rail in the state.

More at NBJ here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/2023/02/01/nashville-monopoly-suggest-local-spots-for-a-new-version-of-the-game/69860605007/


A Tennessee commission is studying passenger rail potential.  Here's what to know.

A bipartisan Tennessee commission to study the feasibility of passenger rail heard case studies from two other states last week, as the group prepares to issue a full report on their findings this summer.

"Boy, is Tennessee far behind here," Sen. Heidi Campbell, D-Nashville, said on Friday after hearing presentations from Virginia and North Carolina about their passenger rail infrastructure, noting Nashville is the third largest city in the U.S. without Amtrak service.

Amtrak shuttered its previous Nashville station in 1979. A current Amtrak line from Chicago to New Orleans stops daily in Memphis, but passenger rail is otherwise limited in the state.

n 2021, President Joe Biden signed a bipartisan infrastructure package, which set aside $66 billion for Amtrak services.

Amtrak previously proposed using a portion of the money to build a passenger railway connection from Nashville to Chattanooga to Atlanta. It would also build stations in Murfreesboro and Tullahoma.

The Tennessee Advisory Commission on Intergovernmental Relations was tasked last year with preparing a full report on passenger rail potential in Tennessee. TACIR must report its findings to the state by July 1.

If Tennessee joined Amtrak's "state-supported" intercity passenger rail service, it could be eligible for federal appropriations that would cover a large bulk of early operating costs.

Nicole Bucich, Amtrak vice president of network development, said a Federal Railroad Administration grant can cover up to six years of operating costs for intercity services on a sliding scale. Amtrak administers the federal grant funds.

"This is a great opportunity for a state to build ridership demand," Bucich said. "The goal would be that after the six years, ridership is strong enough the gap between operating costs and revenue is getting smaller and smaller."

State studying passenger rail possibilities for BlueOval City

Tennessee is currently studying the potential for passenger trains from Memphis to BlueOval City, the new Ford Motor Company production campus about 40 miles from Memphis, with an eye on commuter transit.

"It's basically trying to get passenger rail to Memphis to Jackson, with a stop at BlueOval with a huge amount of workers," Dan Pallme, an assistant chief at the Tennessee Department of Transportation, said Friday.

Ford is interested in two train schedules a day, though the state is still studying how it might affect existing rail infrastructure for freight movement. The study should be done in the spring.

"There's a lot of things that need to be further evaluated," Pallme said.

More behind TheTennessean paywall here:

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2023/01/31/amtrak-tennessee-passenger-trains-expansion-commuter-rail-commission-studying-potential/69849022007/

 

 

These are basically four huge, mostly-separate projects that would have the potential to transform commuting and travel in the region.

The easiest, and most likely to happen in the near term, is the resumption of service to Louisville. I guess Louisville-Cincinnati-Chicago is doable, but including Cincinnati on the same line would invove a pretty indirect, long ride to Chicago. Nashville-Lousville, then splitting to Chicago via Indianapolis and Pittsburgh via Cincinnati and Columbus would make more sense. Either way, good first step. If it's frequent enough (not the normal 1 or 2 train a day that you see outside of the NEC), I would imagine it would get lots of ridership. Unfortunately, I imagine that it will be more of the same...one train leaving at a completely unreasonable hour that takes forever to get anywhere because being stuck behind a "precision scheduled" freight train, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic.

The second possibility, Nashville-Murf-Tullahoma-Chatt-Atlanta, would be what I would want to see the most, especially if it includes a frequent commuter connection to Murfreesboro (even better if it enables a reverse commute).  That would have the potential to be truly transformative. The distance between Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta is basically perfect for passenger rail, especially if it can maintain a somewhat decent average speed. 

The third possibility, a Memphis-Nashville-Knoxville connection, would also be huge...again, if it was frequent, reliable, and fast. When I lived in Philadelphia, I had coworkers that would commute from as far away as Lancaster on Amtrak, and that was made possible because of the frequency and speed of operations. I don't expect any sort of frequency like you see between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, mainly because Amtrak owns the line and it's well engineered for passenger train service (dual track, if not quad track, and largely grade separated), but there's no reason a 4-a-day or 5-a-day service isn't feasible.

The fourth possibility, commuter rail between Memphis and Jackson to serve BlueOval, would also be awesome, and potentially could be GREAT for Memphis.

[Luvemtall]

This is all good news, and would definitely be a game changer! Bring it on.. PLEASE! 

[UrbanWes03]

2 hours ago, Nathan_in_DC said:

These are basically four huge, mostly-separate projects that would have the potential to transform commuting and travel in the region.

The easiest, and most likely to happen in the near term, is the resumption of service to Louisville. I guess Louisville-Cincinnati-Chicago is doable, but including Cincinnati on the same line would invove a pretty indirect, long ride to Chicago. Nashville-Lousville, then splitting to Chicago via Indianapolis and Pittsburgh via Cincinnati and Columbus would make more sense. Either way, good first step. If it's frequent enough (not the normal 1 or 2 train a day that you see outside of the NEC), I would imagine it would get lots of ridership. Unfortunately, I imagine that it will be more of the same...one train leaving at a completely unreasonable hour that takes forever to get anywhere because being stuck behind a "precision scheduled" freight train, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic.

The second possibility, Nashville-Murf-Tullahoma-Chatt-Atlanta, would be what I would want to see the most, especially if it includes a frequent commuter connection to Murfreesboro (even better if it enables a reverse commute).  That would have the potential to be truly transformative. The distance between Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta is basically perfect for passenger rail, especially if it can maintain a somewhat decent average speed. 

The third possibility, a Memphis-Nashville-Knoxville connection, would also be huge...again, if it was frequent, reliable, and fast. When I lived in Philadelphia, I had coworkers that would commute from as far away as Lancaster on Amtrak, and that was made possible because of the frequency and speed of operations. I don't expect any sort of frequency like you see between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, mainly because Amtrak owns the line and it's well engineered for passenger train service (dual track, if not quad track, and largely grade separated), but there's no reason a 4-a-day or 5-a-day service isn't feasible.

The fourth possibility, commuter rail between Memphis and Jackson to serve BlueOval, would also be awesome, and potentially could be GREAT for Memphis.

For the Nashville-Chattanooga-Atlanta extension, they also have a planned stop at BNA. This could pave the way for at least a commuter rail option from Downtown to the airport. Additionally, it could pave the way for Murfreesboro commuter rail in the future

Edited February 1 by UrbanWes03

[MLBrumby]

Given Chattanooga's history as a rail hub and of course, Atlanta's and Nashville's as a part of the L&N RR network, it's strange to me that there wasn't a link for passenger rail already between Nashville and Atlanta.  I suppose there used to be passenger service via Southern RR, I know there was between Knoxville and Atlanta. 

[UrbanWes03]

6 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Given Chattanooga's history as a rail hub and of course, Atlanta's and Nashville's as a part of the L&N RR network, it's strange to me that there wasn't a link for passenger rail already between Nashville and Atlanta.  I suppose there used to be passenger service via Southern RR, I know there was between Knoxville and Atlanta. 

Yep! I went to high school at Knoxville’s L&N STEM Academy which is in the old L&N station. It was such a great building but I could never stop thinking about how nice it’d be if it was still a train station

[smeagolsfree]

By the time this is done, if it is done, I will be dead and gone or too old to enjoy it. I will just continue to drive my rear end to wherever and contribute to global warming.

[MontanaGuy]

52 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

By the time this is done, if it is done, I will be dead and gone or too old to enjoy it. I will just continue to drive my rear end to wherever and contribute to global warming.

I'm in the same situation, I'll be 74 in April and all of these transportation projects will take many years to complete.

[Luvemtall]

Let’s hope for the bright side , maybe they will fool us and actually get something up and running sooner then later. If so we need to all go together for the inaugural run. 

[nashmoney]

Maybe once the train expansion is complete, the Blue Parrot in Sobro will be open and riders can hop off the train downtown and grab a drink! I wonder which would be complete first.... 

[rolly]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:12 AM, smeagolsfree said:

The only option there is a continuation of I 69 and the proposed transcontinental Hwy. I think it is slow going right now. The KY portion is slow going and this has been a dream for years and is now started to happen.

Interstate 69 Corridor Timeline (tn.gov)

Here's a view of the I-69 project north of Memphis. The section around Union City is under construction.

Google maps satellite view has a good shot of that section.

[rookzie]

On 2/1/2023 at 2:39 PM, smeagolsfree said:

By the time this is done, if it is done, I will be dead and gone or too old to enjoy it. I will just continue to drive my rear end to wherever and contribute to global warming.

...Just as I've said in at least one previous post, with respect to rapid transit in Metro.   With the necessary lead time in planning and and engineering, it just about would be time for me to meet the "Deep-Six", before any sizable segment would be up and running.

There have been even much more start-up projects in other regions much more robust than any single portion of previously proposed LRT (light rail transit) lines for Nashville.  WMATA's (DC-MD-VA) first opening (start-up) was a portion of its current Red Line Metro (Heavy Rail - HRT) was constructed and opened in just over 6 years spanning just over 4-1/2 miles.  In all fairness, the Washington Metro was the result of political will mustered on the federal (congressional) level, in part to get rid of the pre-existing privately owned DC Transit streetcar network.  LRT start-ups typically have taken from nearly 3 years (~9.5 miles) to 5-6 years (~14 miles) from initial ground-breaking to opening, so I have a running chance to still be around, if Metro Nashville stops  kicking the can down the road within ─ say ─ 5 years.  But there's still the development stage that takes a while before any construction is undertaken.

On 2/1/2023 at 3:33 PM, MontanaGuy said:

I'm in the same situation, I'll be 74 in April and all of these transportation projects will take many years to complete.

Finally, yet another somebody on this thread, who's actually older than me (than "I" ─ 72 next Sept.)...