The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[markhollin]

10th Ave. North is now open all the way from Commerce St. to Dr. Martin Luther King Blvd. (Charlotte Ave.).  It had been closed around Amazon Two for several years.

Looking north from 10th Ave. North, with the base of Amazon Two at the left:

[PruneTracy]

21 hours ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

I was in Kingsport for a couple of days this past week and then had to go down to Augusta later in the week. I took i26 from Kingsport. It's 2 lanes, when I crossed into NC it became 3 lanes; and I thought 'how many times have I seen this be the case?'

I'm not trying to bash tdot, just trying to figure out why we're so far behind?

i65 from KY 3 lanes down to 2 in TN.

i75 in GA 3 lanes, i75 in KY 3 lanes, 2 in TN.

I don't get it, and I know I've said it before but man, it kills me only having 2 lanes between Knoxville and Chattanooga.

Does anyone know? Is it a federal thing? a tdot thing? I have no clue

About 10-15 years ago the corridor studies for most of these interstates recommended full widening to six lanes throughout the state. You can view the current and previous studies here:

Corridor and Feasibility Studies (tn.gov)

TDOT declined to start large-scale widening projects at the time because (a) they didn't have the funding to do so; (b) the directive from local and state officials at the time prioritized surface streets/highways and multimodal access; and (c) they were in the middle of pushback from citizens and special interest groups over the traffic and environmental impacts of large projects.

(Incidentally I used to work with a former TDOT planner who was closely involved in this decision and had to travel the state with them frequently for work. I always made it a point to comment on being stuck behind a truck when it happened to rile them up because that's the kind of person I am)

In the last few years TDOT has started this process mainly from Memphis to Jackson along I-40 but also along other interstates. TDOT is widening Interstate 65 from Nashville to the KY state line now; it was the largest single project ever let by the state. Elsewhere you may see "truck climbing lanes" and similar beginning to pop up that will be connected to create continuous six-lane corridors. But it won't be done a hundred miles at a time simply because the environmental and procurement process makes that very difficult.

20 hours ago, NissanvilleTitans said:

Does pay as you go make sense these days? It may at one time but yeah, things are never done in a timely manner. By the time they're done with something, everything else is so far behind. Things only grow in cost, never do they get cheaper over time. Shouldn't loans be taken out at a current lower price and go ahead and do things proactively now than doing them later retroactively when construction costs will have risen exponentially? Retroactive costs are always more expensive as well.

There's a bill currently in the state legislature to allow TDOT to enter into P3s and expand their ability to conduct alternative delivery projects in order to get projects in the ground quicker and take advantage of alternative funding channels, particularly those that put more financial risk on private operators. But then many on this forum will be complaining about "Lexus lanes". It seems the one solution everyone agrees on is that it's better to just issue bonds now and let future generations worry about how they get paid.

[NissanvilleTitans]

Wow! Thank you. Very informative

[MLBrumby]

4 hours ago, PruneTracy said:

About 10-15 years ago the corridor studies for most of these interstates recommended full widening to six lanes throughout the state. You can view the current and previous studies here:

Corridor and Feasibility Studies (tn.gov)

TDOT declined to start large-scale widening projects at the time because (a) they didn't have the funding to do so; (b) the directive from local and state officials at the time prioritized surface streets/highways and multimodal access; and (c) they were in the middle of pushback from citizens and special interest groups over the traffic and environmental impacts of large projects.

(Incidentally I used to work with a former TDOT planner who was closely involved in this decision and had to travel the state with them frequently for work. I always made it a point to comment on being stuck behind a truck when it happened to rile them up because that's the kind of person I am)

In the last few years TDOT has started this process mainly from Memphis to Jackson along I-40 but also along other interstates. TDOT is widening Interstate 65 from Nashville to the KY state line now; it was the largest single project ever let by the state. Elsewhere you may see "truck climbing lanes" and similar beginning to pop up that will be connected to create continuous six-lane corridors. But it won't be done a hundred miles at a time simply because the environmental and procurement process makes that very difficult.

There's a bill currently in the state legislature to allow TDOT to enter into P3s and expand their ability to conduct alternative delivery projects in order to get projects in the ground quicker and take advantage of alternative funding channels, particularly those that put more financial risk on private operators. But then many on this forum will be complaining about "Lexus lanes". It seems the one solution everyone agrees on is that it's better to just issue bonds now and let future generations worry about how they get paid.

As a Chattanoogan, it's frustrating to see that I-24 corridor study was done 10 years ago!!!!  And nothing is different along that route to M'boro.  We don't even plan weekend trips to/beyond Nashville anymore because the return bottleneck between Nickajack and Chattanooga ALWAYS gets bogged down and it's very frustrating.  It may not be TDOT's complete fault, but they should not be proud of the "pay go" rule, which wouldn't even be recognized as good business (financial) management anywhere.  By several accounts I've seen in recent years, even a very limited amount of debt serviced by gas tax revenues would bring in approximately $30-40 million additionally each year.  My source was a 3 year old blue book report on annual gas tax revenues which amounted to apx. $1 billion. Rough figures with a Debt:Rev ratio of 15-20% would allow an initial $150-200 million released with a ten-year bond interest of approximately $6-14M per year with debt ceiling raised by the growth each year conservatively estimated at 2% y-y. That's an additional $30-40 million (before interest)* and as existing debt retires. If that had been done when the study was concluded in 2013, and debt funding had been used that would be somewhere between $300-500M (net of interest) that could have kick-started (and possibly fully funded the full I-24 widening from KY to GA)**.  So TEN years later, the only thing to show for it is a lot of fancy light boards that theoretically would keep traffic flowing by rerouting to Murfreesboro Road.  That's supposed to be a solution to doubling the MSA population in 20 years?  I've read projections that Rutherford Co. may well have 600,000 residents by 2040. 

*There are future considerations to be included here that should forecast a range of years when the gas tax revenues begin to decline based on growth in EV use.  I merely present this very high level explanation to show one possibility. 

** I do not know what the cost per mile for TDOT Interstate widening was/is during the past 10 years. 

[bnacincy]

I'm thinking they probably need to widen 24 from the I59 junction in North Georgia all the way to the Highwy 27 junction near downtown Chattanooga.

[Luvemtall]

10 hours ago, bnacincy said:

I'm thinking they probably need to widen 24 from the I59 junction in North Georgia all the way to the Highwy 27 junction near downtown Chattanooga.

I’m surprised that Georgia hasn’t done anything to the section that dips into their territory and the I-59 interchange. Guess they figure to wait on Tennessee to do their part, which may never come. The section from HWY 27 to at least Brown’s Ferry Road, might need to have two levels. East bound on the lower and West on the upper, it’s pretty tight around the bends with the river on one side and the railway on the other. There no room to build enough extra lanes though there, I say enough because it really needs to be four lane minimum in each direction. 

[PruneTracy]

17 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

As a Chattanoogan, it's frustrating to see that I-24 corridor study was done 10 years ago!!!!  And nothing is different along that route to M'boro.  We don't even plan weekend trips to/beyond Nashville anymore because the return bottleneck between Nickajack and Chattanooga ALWAYS gets bogged down and it's very frustrating.  It may not be TDOT's complete fault, but they should not be proud of the "pay go" rule, which wouldn't even be recognized as good business (financial) management anywhere.  By several accounts I've seen in recent years, even a very limited amount of debt serviced by gas tax revenues would bring in approximately $30-40 million additionally each year.  My source was a 3 year old blue book report on annual gas tax revenues which amounted to apx. $1 billion. Rough figures with a Debt:Rev ratio of 15-20% would allow an initial $150-200 million released with a ten-year bond interest of approximately $6-14M per year with debt ceiling raised by the growth each year conservatively estimated at 2% y-y. That's an additional $30-40 million (before interest)* and as existing debt retires. If that had been done when the study was concluded in 2013, and debt funding had been used that would be somewhere between $300-500M (net of interest) that could have kick-started (and possibly fully funded the full I-24 widening from KY to GA)**.  So TEN years later, the only thing to show for it is a lot of fancy light boards that theoretically would keep traffic flowing by rerouting to Murfreesboro Road.  That's supposed to be a solution to doubling the MSA population in 20 years?  I've read projections that Rutherford Co. may well have 600,000 residents by 2040. 

*There are future considerations to be included here that should forecast a range of years when the gas tax revenues begin to decline based on growth in EV use.  I merely present this very high level explanation to show one possibility. 

** I do not know what the cost per mile for TDOT Interstate widening was/is during the past 10 years. 

The problem is that TDOT has no control over the gas tax. We (the state) just raised it six years ago as part of the IMPROVE Act and it had to come with offsets such as elimination of the Hall income tax and sales tax on groceries. There is even less political appetite for it now, which is why TDOT is now pushing P3s and other funding channels that don't rely on tax revenue.

It's entirely possible that the state government would benefit from issuing debt but there are also plenty of states, municipalities, and indeed DOTs who are unable to maintain roadway networks even after having access to it for their entire existence, largely because they had access to it in the first place. There are many people in Tennessee from the governor down who are proud of having no income taxes and virtually no debt obligation and, honestly, it doesn't seem to be hurting the state economically. I personally think all politicians from your HOA board up should be shot into the sun and I certainly don't trust them to flip a coin without asking for another so even though we may not be getting the most bang for our buck it is an acceptable arrangement to me. Then again I did my federal income taxes this weekend so maybe that's just the mood I'm in.

Also, just as an aside because I know it's not your broader point, $300mm to $500mm would get you from the end of the eight-lane section in Murfreesboro out to about Manchester and we won't even talk about how much the Monteagle tunnel was supposed to cost.

3 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

I’m surprised that Georgia hasn’t done anything to the section that dips into their territory and the I-59 interchange. Guess they figure to wait on Tennessee to do their part, which may never come. The section from HWY 27 to at least Brown’s Ferry Road, might need to have two levels. East bound on the lower and West on the upper, it’s pretty tight around the bends with the river on one side and the railway on the other. There no room to build enough extra lanes though there, I say enough because it really needs to be four lane minimum in each direction. 

For construction purposes TDOT has divided the stretch of I-24 from Georgia into Chattanooga into three segments:

• Segment 1: Georgia state line to the welcome center
• Segment 2: welcome center to east of Browns Ferry Road
• Segment 3: east of Browns Ferry Road to near I-124 (US 27, where the current downtown projects end)

Segments 1 and 2 are supposed to be design-build projects but preliminary engineering has not started. CSX is nearby on the south side of I-24 so will cause some issues with widening. Segment 3 has an RFQ out for preliminary engineering and will likely be a CM/GC project. The problem here is the proximity of the river and CSX but they will probably just widen out into the river and fight with TDEC, TVA, and the Corps.

All three of these are IMPROVE Act projects and were funded by the gas tax increase but will only be a widening to six lanes at the moment.

Someone at TDOT told me that GDOT plans to widen I-24 to I-59 to match, not the entire length of it within the state, but I never found any information from GDOT on that.

By the way you can view all active TDOT projects here:

TDOT iTRIP Dashboard (arcgis.com)

Edited March 27, 2023 by PruneTracy

[MLBrumby]

Thanks for the insight from a TDOT p.o.v.;  I appreciate the info you've provided here. 

I do want to clarify that I never said TDOT was fully to blame for the lack of action on the I-24 corridor although I'd still be happy to have 'just' the Murfreesboro to Manchester stretch widened by now. No doubt the cost of widening the whole road isn't going down. And I still haven't seen a good explanation as to why I-24 hasn't been touched through the heart of Nashville.  I seem to recall some statement about a decade ago (after outer segments were completed) that TDOT was not going to do it at that time because they thought Nashvillians were fatigued from all the construction.  I hope that's not true as it's an asinine reason.   

You read my frustration above from driving the stretch from Chattanooga (really GA before that) to Nashville for 35 years, and I find it confounding how nothing has been done to address the enormous increase in volume. True, the Monteagle rerouting was done during that time. To a limited degree it was helpful to have the 3 lanes for trucks going up the mountain but only on the WB lanes. I've been told (don't know for sure) that the EB lanes going up the mountain are actually the old US41 road from the 1940s!  If true, that's just incredible. I do remember the EB lanes going down the mountain and the curvy route it took. That was a huge improvement, but it took forever to complete. I was driving to/from college during that time and remember the Jersey wall dividing both directions on the north side of the mountain. 

I don't argue your point about TDOT and the gas tax, however my point was that it's just not good business practice to follow the "pay go" approach they seem to be so proud of, especially when so many projects just languish. I gave just one very conservative example.  I have seen some more detailed figures that show unleashing up to $100M per year, but I gave a simple one.  While I don't know those states that are experiencing budget shortfalls, I doubt it's because they use debt funding.  I don't know for a fact, but I'd expect that TDOT commissioner Ely has tremendous influence on where the money goes at least with Gov. Lee.  I'm sure he struggles when he has to battle the bumpkins in the state lex  who insist the billions be spread equally across the state and among urban/rural.  I can only guess how much influence Ely has in determining the priorities.  

Regarding the GDOT widening of I-24, it would be the ultimate embarrassment for them to widen that few miles in Georgia while TDOT continues to neglect both sides.  I know GDOT wouldn't do that, as I believe TDOT will be given the lead on that whole project according to the document above. 

[markhollin]

This from The Nashville Post on Friday:

Gov. Bill Lee’s Transportation Modernization Act completed its passage through the Tennessee General Assembly on Thursday, looking nearly identical to the way it started. The multibillion-dollar plan will affect the state’s approach to infrastructure for decades to come.

“It’s time to do something about the way we address our infrastructure,” said Rep. Dan Howell (R-Cleveland) while presenting the bill on the House floor. 

The core of the legislation centers on freeing up the state to make use of public-private partnerships in building “choice lanes,” which critics have taken to referring to as toll lanes. These choice lanes would be built by private companies on existing highways, giving drivers the option of paying a fee in exchange for theoretically avoiding traffic. Advocates for the bill argue that this would not only open up a new stream of revenue, but also free up the Tennessee Department of Transportation’s limited resources, allowing the department to devote its time to rural projects. 

From the time the plan was first presented by the governor in January, the proposal has received bipartisan support, as well as bipartisan criticism. The bill squeaked through the Senate Transportation Committee on a 5-4 vote, with three Republicans joining Sen. Heidi Campbell (D-Nashville) in voting against the bill. 

“We have this triple A bond rating, and if there's ever a time to use it, this would be one of those times,” Campbell said, referring to the state's strong status according to credit rating agencies. The governor has touted the lack of new debt or an increase to the gas tax as selling points for his plan. “If it's a profitable endeavor for private entities,” said Campbell, “then surely it would be a profitable endeavor for us.”

Early on in the legislative session, Campbell was open to the bill despite having some concerns. But she says as she has grown more familiar with the legislation, her concerns have deepened, mainly surrounding how the bill treats Nashville. Critics of the proposal were quick to point out that of the $3 billion proposed, Nashville and Middle Tennessee would receive the least funding per capita under the current allotments.

“Basically we're getting double charged,” said Campbell, expressing a common concern among critics that funding for rural projects will come out of the pockets of urban drivers through the choice lanes, on top of the taxes residents are already paying. “If you look at other privatizations endeavors in this state — like, CoreCivic comes to mind. They don't go well. And I am very concerned about putting taxpayers on the hook for that component of it."

Campbell was one of five senators to vote against the bill when it  passed on the Senate floor on March 20. Sen. Jeff Yarbro (D-Nashville) and Minority Leader Raumesh Akbari (D-Memphis) both supported the bill but expressed concern that it was not ambitious enough to address the state's infrastructure needs. 

Protesters rallied against gun violence at the Capitol on Thursday, and the ensuing chaos led Republican leaders to bar most debate on the House floor.  

Six amendments were tabled during the session, most of which were proposed by Rep. John Ray Clemmons (D-Nashville), who started with an impassioned speech pleading with his peers to vote positively on an amendment to help expand Amtrak in Tennessee. 

“Amtrak wants to be in Tennessee,” said Clemmons. “They are practically begging us to take their money, and invest it and restart intrastate passenger rail service, which could be used for interstate passenger rail service.”

TDOT sent a letter to U.S. Department of Transportation late last year expressing interest in expanding Amtrak throughout Tennessee. But with grants being competitive, advocates for passenger rail expansion have argued that TDOT needs to be doing more to secure federal funding. 

“This isn’t asking us to spend a bunch of money,” said Clemmons. “This is asking the state of Tennessee, requiring the department to work with the federal government. … This shouldn’t even be controversial.”

Clemmons argued that having Amtrak lines between major Tennessee cities, and even connecting to Atlanta, could bolster the economies of not only urban cores but also rural counties. 

The amendment failed, and the act passed the House on a 78-12 margin. It now makes its way to the governor's desk.

[PaulChinetti]

So a collective, whatever, from our representatives on moving this state forward in any meaningful way. Got it. 

[markhollin]

Broadway Viaduct rebuild update.

Looking north from 11th Ave. North, just south of Broadway Viaduct:

[markhollin]

More Lower Broadway bollards installation.  This along the north side between 4th and 5th Avenues.

[markhollin]

The couple of blocks of 8th Ave. South below the Music City Roundabout are finally repaved over the large scale sewer replacement project.  It was like the surface of the moon for several years. 
 

[go_outside]

22 hours ago, markhollin said:

The couple of blocks of 8th Ave. South below the Music City Roundabout are finally repaved over the large scale sewer replacement project.  It was like the surface of the moon for several years. 
 

I wish they would narrow these lanes slightly and use the extra space to add a grass strip/trees between the road and sidewalk. Even with the wider-than-average sidewalks, this current design is not pedestrian-friendly.

[MLBrumby]

Wait! Whait?!  

The sewer was redone in a multiyear construction effort, and they put the wooden sticks for the utilities back in place?  Didn't even have the sense to put underground.... or at least put them on one side of the street?  

[downtownresident]

19 minutes ago, MLBrumby said:

Wait! Whait?!  

The sewer was redone in a multiyear construction effort, and they put the wooden sticks for the utilities back in place?  Didn't even have the sense to put underground.... or at least put them on one side of the street?  

Those were to be buried as part of the Circle South development that we are still patiently waiting on. 

[Luvemtall]

There’s so many poles in that picture, maybe they are counting them as trees!!! UGLY! 

[CenterHill]

On 4/9/2023 at 9:30 AM, markhollin said:

The couple of blocks of 8th Ave. South below the Music City Roundabout are finally repaved over the large scale sewer replacement project.  It was like the surface of the moon for several years. 
 

 

And it still is from this point all the way out 8th to the I-440 overpass.  The recent Metro Water project has left the southbound lanes a mess. 

[KJHburg]

This study says TN should remove one of your major freeways downtown.  (the 2 on the NC list are likely to NEVER be removed nor should they as that is the view from NC DOT)

But I thought I share this even though I don't agree with it.   

https://southernurbanism.org/blog/southern-freeway-removal-phil-veasley

This all being said I will say it again there needs to be bypass from north of Nashville around the east side to connect with existing I-840 to get that through truck traffic out of the center city.   (and don't tell me it can't be done because of rock etc)  Make it toll to pay it off.  

[Bark At The Sun]

Tennessee 3 Stars logo for new Donelson Interchange bridge at I40.

[smeagolsfree]

20 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

This study says TN should remove one of your major freeways downtown.  (the 2 on the NC list are likely to NEVER be removed nor should they as that is the view from NC DOT)

But I thought I share this even though I don't agree with it.   

https://southernurbanism.org/blog/southern-freeway-removal-phil-veasley

This all being said I will say it again there needs to be bypass from north of Nashville around the east side to connect with existing I-840 to get that through truck traffic out of the center city.   (and don't tell me it can't be done because of rock etc)  Make it toll to pay it off.  

To make matters worse, the guy used a skyline shot that was at least 7 years old! Looks as if the Bridgestone was under construction.

The guy does not even suggest which interstate should be removed either, or rather if he is saying all of them should be removed. If he is saying that, then where should we remove them to. Dufus! Some people are full of it. As much as I hate interstate's there is a need for them.  Some folks clearly have their brains in the wrong parts of their body. The cost of such a project would be in the 10s of billions.

The ginny is out of the bottle! Where do you reroute three interstates worth of traffic to. There simply is no space to route them to without uprooting entire neighborhoods. It could be done to the north maybe, but the south and the east would be a disaster and the political pushback would be a death sentence for any politician that tried it. Metro is growing to the east and south. Even 840 will not handle the traffic that would be pushed on it at rush hour being that far out. The stretch between the Lebanon and Franklin gets quite a bit of traffic already.

When the 840 project was on the books for the north leg, the environmentalist and the nimby's were out in full force.

[PaulChinetti]

Well he’s comparing it to the big dig. So I guess he advocating for tunnels?

We could cap almost everything on the south side and that would be a good start. Including 440. 

[smeagolsfree]

1 minute ago, PaulChinetti said:

Well he’s comparing it to the big dig. So I guess he advocating for tunnels?

We could cap almost everything on the south side and that would be a good start. Including 440. 

I was not even counting that end of the expense of either capping the interstates turned boulevards or just turning them into boulevards. The cost of rerouting the interstates is billions by themselves. The other factor is that if people have the choice of using a Blvd vs an interstate to cut 50 miles off of their travel, which one do you think they will use?

[Bos2Nash]

I think it is good these interstate conversations are happening. I think the inner loop should go away (or at least be capped) and you keep the I-24/I-65 route through East. Keeping one leg that passes through the city allows for a constant flow of traffic through the city, which to a certain extent is good. That being said, a major investment such as the Big Dig took almost 10/15 years of diligent planning to start construction and then 15/20 years of construction. The biggest reason why this WON'T happen though is because that type of investment must come from a state level and we all know that that is just NOT going to happen.

I also believe building a brand new interstate in today's day of diligent environmentalism will halt any of that. A downtown bypass from the north to the east should be Briley because it is already there, it is already very wide from I-65 to I-40 and could easily handle truck volume. There has been ample conversation about what would need to occur to have Briley be the bypass from the north to the west though. Another major investment, but one that the State would probably be happy to make.

[Luvemtall]

2 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

I think it is good these interstate conversations are happening. I think the inner loop should go away (or at least be capped) and you keep the I-24/I-65 route through East

I agree that conversation and actions need to happen. Don’t agree fully that the inner loop goes away, and in your plan above where does I-40 reroute to? The inner loop would be a completely different animal , if as our friend KJHBurg mentioned a interstate connection from the East ( Lebanon) up across the North with connections to  major arteries and both I-65 and I-24 back to I-40 on the west ( Dickson) a northern completion of I-840 if you want to call it that. Traffic though Downtown on the inner loop is horrible, due to the large volume of unnecessary commercial truck traffic and folks just passing through. Yes I-840’s southern route is a good alternative for south and East/West travel, but does nothing for those going to the north. And if trucks are ever forced to use I-840 as Georgia does with I-285 around Atlanta, then just the southern route will not be enough to handle the volume or address those needing to head north. If the issue with just the pass though traffic is addressed, the difference for local traffic on the inner loop will surprise you all. The loop being in Downtown isn’t the problem, but I’m surely aware that in the current political climate those in the State House care nothing bout Nashville’s traffic woes. Every major city has interstates running though them, it’s basically the reason they became major cities. It’s the ones with the will to do something to help eliminate the vehicles that don’t really need to be passing through the inner city , that people will remember as a good place to move around in.