The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[UTgrad09]

It's going to take a mixture of allies and ramming.  There's almost always a fight over a rapid transit system when it first starts, and Nashville is reaching a phase where a lot of older people and longtime residents are suddenly figuring out the city is changing beyond recognition and it's alarming them.  They don't want to think of Nashville as a big city with an urban character.

 

I think some of that might be true, but careful with stereotyping old people. There are a few of them on this board (you know who you are).

 

Yes. There are people that want Nashville to be that sleepy little midsized capital that flies under the radar as often as possible (well, outside of anything related to music -- because that's been in the news for a good while now).

 

But it's not just the old folks. I know a good number of people that moved here to get away from their 'big overcrowded cities' and consider(ed) Nashville to be a paradise...just the right size. They, of course, are starting to see traffic increase, buildings go up, etc. Some of these people -- even those from cities far more urban than our Nashville, do not like this. 

 

We must keep in mind that this board is relatively like-minded in terms of being pro urban development...across all age groups. We are not really an accurate sample for how the city as a whole feels about these issues (duh -- I'm sure all of you know this). But I can tell you from talking to people -- people I know in my circle that are not development geeks, that they can be swayed. The Stop Amp crowd is loud...but there are a lot of people who are still undecided or even apathetic (partially because they haven't ever thought about this kind of thing before).

 

I think it's important that we advocate this...not in a condescending or preachy manner...not being dismissive of other people's notions...but to lay out the reasons why we support mass transit. You're not going to change everyone's mind...but you might plant the seed in some that maybe this isn't such a bad thing after all. There is a lot of misinformation and playing to people's fears coming from the opposition. It is our job to present the other side of it...because if all they hear from is the noisy Stop Amp crowd, they're going to believe that what they say is true.

[nashvylle]

agreed. I think we should all take the stomp amp people on a drive down hillsboro road and ask if they like sitting in the traffic for at least half an hour and say, should we add more lanes? more cars? Building new roads is free... right?

[UTgrad09]

agreed. I think we should all take the stomp amp people on a drive down hillsboro road and ask if they like sitting in the traffic for at least half an hour and say, should we add more lanes? more cars? Building new roads is free... right?

 

IN A POLITE MANNER........yes.

[bwithers1]

agreed. I think we should all take the stomp amp people on a drive down hillsboro road and ask if they like sitting in the traffic for at least half an hour and say, should we add more lanes? more cars? Building new roads is free... right?

Unfortunately, taking many of these people down Hillsboro Road and having them sit in traffic for ever seems only to make them say . . ."No Skyscraper in Green Hills."  I can tell you that even in East Nashville neighborhoods, that just about any proposal to increase density leads to screams about "oh my God, the traffic!"  A lot of people who are otherwise urban minded want virtually no cars on their own street other than their own and will oppose most development plans in order to keep traffic away.  And unfortunately the idea of using public transportation in lieu of cars is abstract to many.

 

I agree with UTGrad that many people have a view of Nashville's density from the recent past and want everything to freeze in time right at that point and are upset that time and development continues. Even in East Nashville, most people I know walk for exercise for themselves and their dog but refuse to walk as a means of actual, you know, transportation.  They look at me like I am crazy for walking to Kroger 2 blocks away for smaller grocery runs or walking to Five Points, which is a pleasant ten minute walk from where I live.  So persuading even those fairly urban minded people of the value of public transportation as a means of getting to/from work is a stretch.

Edited November 27, 2013 by bwithers1

[nashvylle]

I say do The Amp and then people will ride it at some point and have their "ok, this isn't so bad... it's actually very efficient" moment. 

[rookzie]

I think some of that might be true, but careful with stereotyping old people. There are a few of them on this board (you know who you are).

 

 

agreed. I think we should all take the stomp amp people on a drive down hillsboro road and ask if they like sitting in the traffic for at least half an hour and say, should we add more lanes? more cars? Building new roads is free... right?

 

uh-h-h...er.... this bear was just awaken from his hibernation, when someone pulled on his collar with,

 

"...old people. There are a few of them on this board (you know who you are)..." [uTgrad09]

 

KS, I had strived to remain under the radar and to just turn over and pull the blanket to the other side, so to speak, but you yanked my chain.   In all sincerity, I am compelled to say that you would excel as an urban analyst and prognosticator (extraordinaire!), in the manner in which you present your points of vantage.  Yeah, I have to stop deluding myself that I still might be a spring chicken, and having had a diversity of urban exposure during my past 62 years, I've actually come to hate driving, period, and that's a shame, for someone.

 

Usually only the Old-old people generally don't like to drive and to assume a more sequestered-from-society, except perhaps to visit the VA or the Social Security office (or to flip bingo chips in then church cafeteria).  While I'm only headed there (as of yet, anyway, as a relatively "new-oldie"), I am almost all but totally loath to drive even the 2 miles from my own home to my mom's, both of which are in the depths of Green Hills.  Except for maybe a half-mile stretch of US 431 (Hillsboro Pike), just south of the shopping district, I aim to avoid at all costs, traversing Hillsboro directly, even deferring Kroger shopping and getting my frequent Red Bull fix from Daily's Market at the Shell filling station, until close to midnight on weekends.

 

Having few and inconsistently or ill-formed pedestrian ways in that area only compounds my frustration, along with grossly misaligned intersections.  It's no wonder therefore that I have chosen to ride the bus to work every day, only electing to drive if I absolutely have to.  If I didn't work downtown, as I have during the previous six years, then I'd really have no alternative but to drive (or to car-pool if presented with that rare opportunity in this region).  So being a choice rider (because my commute is readily transit accessible), my decision to settle into a home near at least 3 MTA bus routes (all off the beaten path of Hillsboro),has been (perhaps by fortuity) a primary investment in sanity and quality of life for this here bear ─ make no mistake about it.  A career change likely would ensure the loss of that convenience of a single-ride commute to work, in consideration of the existing MTA infrastructure (and the fat-choked arterials along which its vehicles must share in mixed traffic).

 

At times I may even be convincing myself that my mounting intolerance toward all Nashville traffic is making me "act older" than I really am, and I find myself often talking out loud to myself, profaning the metro departmental divisions which should be responsible and more accountable for disruptions in traffic flow (by lane and signal and signage design and by the indifferent handling of detours and closings).  I guess it's like peas in a pod; if one is rotten, then the chances are that the others are not far behind (in reference to the municipal management on the enterprise level in general).  Maybe I can't speak even for myself as a stereotype geezer, but the exponentially increasing immobility of motor traffic and lack of a decent pedestrian-way sub-system are sufficient to effect a coronary blockage.

 

I am dying for the city to get anything started to set an example for alternative transit.  As the situation is poised to be headed now (fueled with press statements by Jim Cooper, Beth Harwell, Haslem, and more recently by Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey himself), we're in for a pit-bull fight, where we're all "wake up dead".  Capitulation in one direction will dash any hope a viable transit alternative, only to be followed eventually with the consequences of a slow, deleterious mortality of mobility, resulting from periodic compounding of long-since severely over-queuing of vehicular traffic.

[Hey_Hey]

Here's a screenshot of the MPO's long term vision for mass transit around Nashville. They also apparently have put up $4 million to go toward the AMP. Also of note, the House evidently has cone to a compromise over the budget and half the sequester cuts would be done away with. It hasn't passed, but at least the sentiment is changing to get some things done. Still a long way to go though.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Hey_Hey

[Paramount747]

Mass Transit is the future for cities whether Lee Beaman likes it or not. The airlines have fought high speed rail for decades, taxi companies and sedan companies have fought the MTA, The MTA Circulator, and the trolley drivers have fought both. It's a never ending cycle,  but in all cases,  the market always wins.

 

Now the car companies and their dealers will be fighting vehicles like the Google car and other "self driven" motorized vehicles in the future.

 

Statistics show less people are driving cars.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/17/news/economy/young-buying-cars/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/sunday-review/the-end-of-car-culture.ht

 

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2012/1208_why_young_people_are_driving_less/

 

So Lee Beaman's fear is not that the AMP will work, but the fear he is selling rotary dial phones in the age of the Samsung watch phone. His product now has a shelf life, and he is afraid.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Urban Architecture

[BnaBreaker]

Good to see a concrete vision laid out.  I do hope that they plan to rename the "Walmart" stop though.  Can't they just call it "Madison" or "Goodlettesville"?

[CenterHill]

The map legend has a symbol for Park & Ride locations, although I couldn't actually find any on the map.     I get this question all the time from the anti-Amp crowd.   If people want to ride the Amp to and from work, how do they get to it assuming another bus line doesn't service their neighborhood?    If they have to drive to it, it seems like there will need to be some park and ride lots at least at each terminus.   Has anyone seen any information about that?   

[Guest]

Did the the state and or feds come up with the funding? 

Even if they do receive funding what happens when/if The AMP is actually a failure? If the traffic conditions worsen due to taking away already taxed traffic lanes? What if ridership levels do not meet projections? 

​You set any mass transit back for 10-20 years. A huge gamble with a big down-side. IMO

 

I say do The Amp and then people will ride it at some point and have their "ok, this isn't so bad... it's actually very efficient" moment. 

[Guest]

Wow, I disagree with your entire screed. Time will tell whether the pause in car buying is due to economic hardship or a true change in attitudes towards vehicle ownership. It is probably both factors. Additionally all the traditional waypoints of youth to middle-age (marriage, car ownership, buying a house, having children) are noticeably delayed. This points more to economic realities, IMO. 

 

Hi-speed rail is dead in tho country. Even CA is having to try to ignore their own laws to try and fund their boondoggle …. if the moon bats in CA can not make it work the technology is DOA for the rest of the nation… at least at the current cost structure.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-judge-blocks-state-funding-bullet-train-20131125,0,725258.story

Mass Transit is the future for cities whether Lee Beaman likes it or not. The airlines have fought high speed rail for decades, taxi companies and sedan companies have fought the MTA, The MTA Circulator, and the trolley drivers have fought both. It's a never ending cycle,  but in all cases,  the market always wins.

 

Now the car companies and their dealers will be fighting vehicles like the Google car and other "self driven" motorized vehicles in the future.

 

Statistics show less people are driving cars.

 

http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/17/news/economy/young-buying-cars/

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/sunday-review/the-end-of-car-culture.ht

 

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2012/1208_why_young_people_are_driving_less/

 

So Lee Beaman's fear is not that the AMP will work, but the fear he is selling rotary dial phones in the age of the Samsung watch phone. His product now has a shelf life, and he is afraid.

[nashvillwill]

Not quite "mass" transit, but this is very exciting.

As of today UberX started service in Nashville. I don't know how many of you guys have used it, but think of them as high tech gypsy cabs.

https://www.uber.com

Edited December 12, 2013 by nashvillwill

[nashvylle]

Did the the state and or feds come up with the funding? 

Even if they do receive funding what happens when/if The AMP is actually a failure? If the traffic conditions worsen due to taking away already taxed traffic lanes? What if ridership levels do not meet projections? 

​You set any mass transit back for 10-20 years. A huge gamble with a big down-side. IMO

Right now we have a terrible busing system. It is unreliable and sits in traffic just like all the other cars, and it stops way too frequently.

 

If we do nothing, we know that traffic will get worse. I do not think The Amp is the "be all end all" for mass transit, but it at least is a different option that everyone can have, which is much better than doing nothing.

[BnaBreaker]

Did the the state and or feds come up with the funding? 

Even if they do receive funding what happens when/if The AMP is actually a failure? If the traffic conditions worsen due to taking away already taxed traffic lanes? What if ridership levels do not meet projections? 

​You set any mass transit back for 10-20 years. A huge gamble with a big down-side. IMO

 

Well, I think those concerns are pretty baseless, and in my opinion it would be rather silly to choose a couple lanes on a road over a halfway respectable mass transit system on the grounds of a supposed 'increase in traffic' seeing as how not building the AMP would essentially guarantee that outcome. 

 

But that aside, if we don't built the AMP in the near future, we probably won't get any other significant opportunities to built a comparable system for another 10-20 years knowing how the 'moon bats' representing us at the state and federal level view mass transit in general.  If we do go another twenty years without some mass transit of this level, the city will probably already have experienced regression due to a complete lack of mass transit at that point, or at least be passed up by all of it's peers who are building proper mass transit, and though being late is better than never arriving at all, it'll be way too late at that point. 

 

My point is that even if your worst fears are realized, and the AMP is not nearly as successful as it was hoped to be, at least we will go through the next twenty years with SOME semblance of an appropriate mass transit system rather than none at all.  The choice seems a no-brainier to me. 

Edited December 13, 2013 by BnaBreaker

[Hey_Hey]

Does anyone understand why UberX can operate in Nashville it UberBlack can't? I'm having a hard time understanding the difference. I'm all for both. Lyft recently started operating here as well. I guess it's pretty similar to UberX.

[nashvillwill]

Does anyone understand why UberX can operate in Nashville it UberBlack can't? I'm having a hard time understanding the difference. I'm all for both. Lyft recently started operating here as well. I guess it's pretty similar to UberX.

Here's an explanation;

http://www.change.org/petitions/support-legislation-that-will-bring-uber-to-nashville

[Paramount747]

My goal in life, or one of them, is to ditch the car for public transportation. I hate being a slave to traffic, car insurance companies, oil companies, car maintenance,  and the like. Nashville is simply still too car dependent, but its changing.

 

If I coud afford it, I would live in NYC, London, Toronto, Paris (once I learn French), San Francisco, or Chicago where I don't need a car.

[Neigeville2]

The quote function doesn't work today?  this is a reply to an earlier post by CenterHill:

 

I don't recall where I saw it, but the BRT will have Park & Rides at the termini and at Elmington Park.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Neigeville2

[Hey_Hey]

I just used Lyft for the first time, and I highly recommend it for anyone needing a ride. I used it to catch a ride from Metrocenter to Edgehill Village, and the suggested payment was $11. Not bad at all. Also, if you download the app now you get $500 credit to be used within two weeks of downloading it. It is all app based and there is no cash needed. Once you request the ride you can watch your driver get closer, so you know when to expect them.

While it isn't mass transit it will definitely make living in Nashville without a car easier. The driver said it has been used more than they ever thought it would and that they needed additional capacity. This is evidenced by the fact that there are many notices that there are no available drivers.

While its free definitely give it a shot and see how you like it.

[timmay143]

What if MTA buses and the AMP looked like this:

 

 

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/12/transparent-lcd-bus/?cid=15688024#slide-id-139391

 

http://youtu.be/A5p0uu6v11I

[37206dude]

Public meetings to provide information and solicit input about the plans for the AMP project.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

http://ampyes.org/next-round-public-meetings-scheduled-final-design-engineering-amp/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=next-round-public-meetings-scheduled-final-design-engineering-amp

 

MTA will hold four initial public design sessions in January to solicit community input and a second round of meetings in March to discuss how the input has been incorporated into the project.

Project manager Mark Sturtevant said the charette-style sessions will include members of the new project team, assembled in October to work on the final phase of design.

“Community input is crucial as we move into the final stage of design,” said Sturtevant. “We are now at the phase in which we want to dig in and answer detailed questions about the system, so we can ensure it serves its primary purpose – to alleviate growing traffic congestion along the city’s densest corridor.”

Dates, times, and locations for the January design sessions are listed below:

• East Nashville
  • Monday, January 13, 5:30 p.m., East Park Community Center theater, 600 Woodland Street, 37206
• Downtown
  • Tuesday, January 14, 5:00 p.m., Nashville Downtown Partnership, 150 4th Ave., N., Ste. G-150, 37219
• Midtown
  • Wednesday, January 15, 5:30 p.m., Metropolitan Board of Parks and Recreation,  large conference room, 2565 Park Plaza (near Centennial Park) 37203
• West Nashville
  • • Thursday, January 16, 5:30 p.m., Montgomery Bell Academy, Paschall  Theater, 4100 Harding Rd., 37205

 

 

Please help improve transportation in your city.

http://ampyes.org

 

[BnaBreaker]

What if MTA buses and the AMP looked like this:

 

 

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/12/transparent-lcd-bus/?cid=15688024#slide-id-139391

 

http://youtu.be/A5p0uu6v11I

 

Those look fantastic!  But Nashville would never go for something that looked unique or ground-breaking or at all of the ordinary.  We have a reputation to uphold, and that reputation is that we are consistently at least five years behind the times when it comes to design. 

[Guest]

Well this is exactly the point. Many of the current Broadway/West End/Harding businesses and residents are not willing to sign-up for your gamble as they will directly be impacted for your experiment. In addition how exactly will traffic be lessened when the AMP crowd is proposing to install the silly park and ride locations in the exact location where two lanes will be lost? I am speaking of Elmington Park. This is already crazy congested most of the day and then it is a school zone which brings already slow traffic to a crawl. 


The East Nash crowd and the businesses making money off of the tourists have all the gain while the Harding road residents feel all the pain. The plan is faulty, the plan is expensive, the plan is unfounded, the plan is a gamble … 

Why not build the first phase of BRT and design it to stop at Murphy Road and West End? You would lose much of the opposition and the citizens can see if the projections are based in reality or, to use your term, the progressive moon-bats are wrong.

Well, I think those concerns are pretty baseless, and in my opinion it would be rather silly to choose a couple lanes on a road over a halfway respectable mass transit system on the grounds of a supposed 'increase in traffic' seeing as how not building the AMP would essentially guarantee that outcome. 

 

[nashvylle]

Well this is exactly the point. Many of the current Broadway/West End/Harding businesses and residents are not willing to sign-up for your gamble as they will directly be impacted for your experiment. In addition how exactly will traffic be lessened when the AMP crowd is proposing to install the silly park and ride locations in the exact location where two lanes will be lost? I am speaking of Elmington Park. This is already crazy congested most of the day and then it is a school zone which brings already slow traffic to a crawl. 

The East Nash crowd and the businesses making money off of the tourists have all the gain while the Harding road residents feel all the pain. The plan is faulty, the plan is expensive, the plan is unfounded, the plan is a gamble … 

Why not build the first phase of BRT and design it to stop at Murphy Road and West End? You would lose much of the opposition and the citizens can see if the projections are based in reality or, to use your term, the progressive moon-bats are wrong.

I am perfectly fine with it stopping at murphy road as well. Hopefully that is an option.