Dimensional Place (Common Market South End site)

[Guest]

Here you go. I actually love the Materials used in this building. The Camden side could be very very interesting.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Guest

[ah59396]

I hate that we are losing the buildings along Camden.  But at this point, I'm just happy that the developer gives enough of a crap to listen to the community.  Kudos to those involved.  They could have just given us all a big "F*** you" and built another version of AvidXchange on the site.  So at least they are trying.  I think what we are getting is a win.

[Spartan]

This is definitely an improvement. I would still like to see more retail on Tryon. They need to find a way to incorporate it into the ground floor of the parking deck, but I like that they have retail on all three corners. The "Wilmore Landing Spot" is fantastic. I'm disappointed at the "Art Plaza" - more from an architectural standpoint. That's the most visible corner, and I feel like it's lacking something to make it special. I'm also not a fan of exposed concrete columns on the outside of buildings. It's unimaginative and boring.

The "Festival Plaza" I don't care for. It looks more like an awkwardly shaped seating area. I'm not clear on how it can be used for "festivals" since the extra space they are providing on the sidewalk is minimal, and they won't actually be able to do anything on the sidewalks on the other corners of the intersection.

Question about materials: Is "masonry clay tile" the same thing that is on the Skye? I'm not very familiar with what that looks like, which is admittedly why I'm skeptical of it.

I'm warming up to the wood paneling now that I've seen it on a couple of buildings (notably further down Camden Rd it was tastefully applied). I still think it's incredibly trendy and will look dated soon, but I suppose as long as it feels good now then it must be ok.

[archiham04]

I think that "masonry clay tile" is more like what is on the Bechtler.

 

[CLTProductions]

I think that "masonry clay tile" is more like what is on the Bechtler.

 

Yup, you are right here. Also to note: there will be 2 levels of parking underground that will be gated for DFA employees, the ground level will be for retail and the upper levels of parking will be open to the public after 530pm on weekdays, and open all weekend. This is huge

[Deleted.]

I hate that we are losing the buildings along Camden.  

And that is the reason why I'm slowly beginning to dislike living in Charlotte, that (losing old buildings) and all of the horribly cheap looking apartments that are ruining areas such as Plaza Midwood. 

[ah59396]

And that is the reason why I'm slowly beginning to dislike living in Charlotte, that (losing old buildings) and all of the horribly cheap looking apartments that are ruining areas such as Plaza Midwood. 

Charlotte is not alone in this regard.

[uptownliving]

It was bizarre to sit there last night and listen to the architect from Duda Payne. He started out by talking about how great a space the patio at Common Market is. How the scale is great along with all the funky artwork etc. etc. You could tell the guy genuinely loved the space, he wasn't just giving lip service. Then literally the next slide in the presentation was him showing us how he will destroy that space he loves and build an office building on it.

I agree that the new design is a lot better, but that local home grown feel of Common Market will forever be gone. It is a space that is unique to Charlotte. The new building will never be something that people will associate and remember as part of something unique to Charlotte.

[nonillogical]

This is a massive improvement clearly, however I see no reason to not keep pushing, and force the discussion about the possibility of keeping the existing buildings (most of them anyway). It seems that they have not given a clear answer as to why that has not been attempted, and I don't think it sets a good precedent to so readily accept another superblock development just because its better than the initial proposal. Its great that the developer seems responsive to neighborhood concerns, so let's make sure they acknowledge the biggest one. While this is turning into a thoughtful project with a lot of redeeming qualities and I might not be in riot mode anymore, I'll never be "satisfied" with any plan that removes the buildings and businesses currently there. I'm well aware that they're not architectural gems, but they and the businesses they house still have character that I can almost guarantee will not be replicated in these new retail spaces. 

[Norm2]

Those builds are gonners. We have to accept that fate. We are lucky that the developer is even working with the public on improving the space. No matter how the design is modified, no one will truly be happy. As it was stated earlier, save the old buildings and make the tower taller, and you run the risk of nimby's complaining the tower is too tall. Make the tower shorter and the buildings have to go. Either way it is not ideal. I love the new design that they have proposed.

[SgtCampsalot]

I would just like some kind of acknowledgement about why they are not keeping any of them. Even if it's a BS answer. We shouldn't be just happy with the fact that they're humoring us. They know exactly what they're destroying.

Edited November 11, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[Norm2]

I would just like some kind of acknowledgement about why they are not keeping any of them. Even if it's a BS answer. We shouldn't be just happy with the fact that they're humoring us. They know exactly what they're destroying.

No other developer in Charlotte has to say why they are demolishing old buildings. Why do these guys have to say why? Most developers don't even acknowledge complaints about their design and these guys have. Push them too much and they might "screw you guys" and build the ugliest most pedestrian unfriendly building of all time.

[Miesian Corners]

Are there no renderings/elevations of the Tryon/Camden corner? None of what I've seen shows the shape of the office component.  The site plan provides a footprint, but is that just the retail, or does the tower rise directly above it?

[Ryan20]

Yup, you are right here. Also to note: there will be 2 levels of parking underground that will be gated for DFA employees, the ground level will be for retail and the upper levels of parking will be open to the public after 530pm on weekdays, and open all weekend. This is huge

That is a great but understated win for the neighborhood. Parking isn't quite as bad in South End as it is in uptown but soon will be with all the growth. I'm always amazed when I go to other cities and find parking decks that I don't have to pay for. That's more of a bad reflection on Charlotte than a positive about other cities. 

[Niner National]

That is a great but understated win for the neighborhood. Parking isn't quite as bad in South End as it is in uptown but soon will be with all the growth. I'm always amazed when I go to other cities and find parking decks that I don't have to pay for. That's more of a bad reflection on Charlotte than a positive about other cities. 

Open to the public doesn't mean free. Hopefully it does in this case, but I'm not counting on it until I hear otherwise.

[nonillogical]

Those builds are gonners. We have to accept that fate. 

Do we? I'm not totally convinced that its a lost cause yet, because people only just started raising a stink about it. There was more outcry over the firehouse on South and that did save the building. Like I said as far as we've heard here, the developers have never directly stated why building the full block is the only way. I'm sure it probably comes down to the money involved in building more vertically but it seems like a good step to make them acknowledge it. I'm not sure how much NIMBYism there would be coming from Wilmore over the height, and even if there is, I wouldn't call it a concern equal to the loss of the buildings and businesses. 

[CLTProductions]

Do we? I'm not totally convinced that its a lost cause yet, because people only just started raising a stink about it. There was more outcry over the firehouse on South and that did save the building. Like I said as far as we've heard here, the developers have never directly stated why building the full block is the only way. I'm sure it probably comes down to the money involved in building more vertically but it seems like a good step to make them acknowledge it. I'm not sure how much NIMBYism there would be coming from Wilmore over the height, and even if there is, I wouldn't call it a concern equal to the loss of the buildings and businesses. 

We do because as long as Duda Paine is the architect, they are goners. Turan and Co have 0 interest in saving them or saving the facades. He likens saving the facades of them to having a Moose's head on the wall. Sure you saved the front but it just looks....etc yadda yadda. It's not the developers to save them (they don't particularly care either), but Duda will definitely not. They have no interest. Wilmore folks spoke up about the height, and if it got taller there would definitely be a huge stink.

[Guest]

As is this building will be 12 feet taller than Ashton. I don't think people realize that. Its a big building. The best argument I've heard so far is appeasing the NIMBYs.  

[Prodev]

I'm going to apologize in advance, but this thread is getting hard to read since all of the sudden there are dozens of architects and city planners on here. Just so we're all clear, this rezoning has nothing to do with whether or not these buildings stay or go. They can be knocked down tomorrow. Whether you like or dislike the site plan, let's also be clear that Duda Paine is getting paid to design what the developer & owner - Cousins & DFA - have paid them to design. The initial plan sucked. That's unquestionable. The current plan is good, very good, and we should be happy that they actually listened and have altered the plan as much as they have. Because it's a build-to-suit, it'll also be built with MUCH higher quality materials than the brick/EFIS beige combo we've gotten so used to in this cycle and that everyone loves to point out and complain about, yet there's no credit or acknowledgement to that. To the question of why don't they just make it taller and save the existing buildings - the rezoning is for TOD-O and the "O" is for optional provisions, the primary one being that the proposed height already exceeds the allowed height under the TOD zoning by 37 feet. After what happened with the Midtown Centre rezoning, where 6 feet somehow made a difference and Cherry residents fought the rezoning the entire way, I think it's very presumptuous and ignorant to assume that Wilmore residents won't have a say and don't have a NIMBYistic point-of-view, and that city council will for some reason discount their opinions because Wilmore residents apparently don't count or matter. To the argument that businesses are being displaced, where were you when Sedgefield SC was rezoned and those tenants were being displaced? Why no complaints that a dozen or more Atherton tenants are going to be displaced when redeveloped? As much as I love Charlotte and have pride for this city, it makes me shake my head when stuff like this happens. Places like Chapel Hill are known for NIMBYism and being anti-growth/development, but at least they're consistent. Just like a lot of the city's Panther's fans, they're just jumping on the bandwagon. 

 

[Norm2]

I'm going to apologize in advance, but this thread is getting hard to read since all of the sudden there are dozens of architects and city planners on here. Just so we're all clear, this rezoning has nothing to do with whether or not these buildings stay or go. They can be knocked down tomorrow. Whether you like or dislike the site plan, let's also be clear that Duda Paine is getting paid to design what the developer & owner - Cousins & DFA - have paid them to design. The initial plan sucked. That's unquestionable. The current plan is good, very good, and we should be happy that they actually listened and have altered the plan as much as they have. Because it's a build-to-suit, it'll also be built with MUCH higher quality materials than the brick/EFIS beige combo we've gotten so used to in this cycle and that everyone loves to point out and complain about, yet there's no credit or acknowledgement to that. To the question of why don't they just make it taller and save the existing buildings - the rezoning is for TOD-O and the "O" is for optional provisions, the primary one being that the proposed height already exceeds the allowed height under the TOD zoning by 37 feet. After what happened with the Midtown Centre rezoning, where 6 feet somehow made a difference and Cherry residents fought the rezoning the entire way, I think it's very presumptuous and ignorant to assume that Wilmore residents won't have a say and don't have a NIMBYistic point-of-view, and that city council will for some reason discount their opinions because Wilmore residents apparently don't count or matter. To the argument that businesses are being displaced, where were you when Sedgefield SC was rezoned and those tenants were being displaced? Why no complaints that a dozen or more Atherton tenants are going to be displaced when redeveloped? As much as I love Charlotte and have pride for this city, it makes me shake my head when stuff like this happens. Places like Chapel Hill are known for NIMBYism and being anti-growth/development, but at least they're consistent. Just like a lot of the city's Panther's fans, they're just jumping on the bandwagon. 

 

I completely agree with you. for some reason we are trying to hold this developer/corporation hostage. We need to have realistic expectations and we also have to accept that neighborhoods and places change. change comes whether we like it or not. Luckily these guys are willing to work with us on the design, and we should be grateful for that instead of nitpicking. I said before that the old buildings are gonna be gone, and the character of that block will change. common Market will still be in South End or close by, and Food Truck Fridays will move but will hopefully still be in the neighborhood, maybe even along the rail trail as I read somewhere that might happen. Change is inevitable, we have to accept that. We can't always get what we want with change, but hopefully we can meet halfway with some of the change that does come. 

[southslider]

Food trucks will move a block away to Tryon and Kingston. Common Market will move a couple blocks away to South Blvd, or a couple more blocks away to Tremont. The cool courtyard patio at Common Market will be forever gone, but then I realized something...

On an earlier post, a commenter didn't realize the Commonwealth location was the first, or even existed. That made me realize, short-time-in-Charlotte me, I had experienced something unique here, that many even newer newcomers hadn't. Before the cool patio in South End, there was a hidden cool, tiny back "patio" at Commonwealth, and that was before the front patio there now. Funny, I used to be jealous of those who experienced Fat City or Center of the Earth in NoDa.  But now, I feel lucky to have experienced the old back patio at Commonwealth and the slated-for-demo courtyard patio at South End.

So just as the uses on this block slated to be razed will relocate nearby, new patios, or "cool spaces," will be created.  But more importantly, new experiences by the next wave of Charlotteans will be made in the next wave of spaces.  And ultimately, the cool Charlotte spaces I experienced will be my special memories to have forever, just as the spaces before and the spaces after were and will be unique to those coming before and after my time in Charlotte.

[nonillogical]

I'm going to apologize in advance, but this thread is getting hard to read since all of the sudden there are dozens of architects and city planners on here. Just so we're all clear, this rezoning has nothing to do with whether or not these buildings stay or go. They can be knocked down tomorrow. Whether you like or dislike the site plan, let's also be clear that Duda Paine is getting paid to design what the developer & owner - Cousins & DFA - have paid them to design. The initial plan sucked. That's unquestionable. The current plan is good, very good, and we should be happy that they actually listened and have altered the plan as much as they have. Because it's a build-to-suit, it'll also be built with MUCH higher quality materials than the brick/EFIS beige combo we've gotten so used to in this cycle and that everyone loves to point out and complain about, yet there's no credit or acknowledgement to that. To the question of why don't they just make it taller and save the existing buildings - the rezoning is for TOD-O and the "O" is for optional provisions, the primary one being that the proposed height already exceeds the allowed height under the TOD zoning by 37 feet. After what happened with the Midtown Centre rezoning, where 6 feet somehow made a difference and Cherry residents fought the rezoning the entire way, I think it's very presumptuous and ignorant to assume that Wilmore residents won't have a say and don't have a NIMBYistic point-of-view, and that city council will for some reason discount their opinions because Wilmore residents apparently don't count or matter. To the argument that businesses are being displaced, where were you when Sedgefield SC was rezoned and those tenants were being displaced? Why no complaints that a dozen or more Atherton tenants are going to be displaced when redeveloped? As much as I love Charlotte and have pride for this city, it makes me shake my head when stuff like this happens. Places like Chapel Hill are known for NIMBYism and being anti-growth/development, but at least they're consistent. Just like a lot of the city's Panther's fans, they're just jumping on the bandwagon. 

 

I feel like this was largely directed at my last few comments. Even though I follow this forum religiously I readily admit I am pretty ignorant of the actual processes involved in getting a development like this off the ground, or in the feasibility of saving old structures. In my time in Charlotte I've seen a handful of campaigns to save buildings and businesses slated for demolition, and a handful have been successful. Others have been taken down with hardly a peep. Since I hadn't heard many specifics as to why the buildings in this particular case couldn't be saved, I wanted to know where they truly stood on the spectrum, and if the developer/owner had directly acknowledged them or not. Some responses to forget about them, lacking much further explanation, sounded like garden variety cynicism simply because this is Charlotte. My comments about Wilmore also weren't meant to discount the neighborhood residents, just to say that I'm unaware of any concerns they may have raised, and am unaware of any past NIMBYism with other nearby developments. Its likely that those concerns are there, I just wouldn't want to assume that a more vertical plan is out of the question only because of similar experiences with other neighborhoods, if in fact it turned out no one had a problem with it. As for other redevelopments around town displacing businesses, I feel for them too but can't claim to be as passionate about areas I am less acquainted with. In both of those examples though, it seems like many of the types of businesses being displaced could have a home in the new development, and in the case of Atherton Market, they do. I don't see Black Sheep (a big part of the soul of the neighborhood IMO that isn't getting as much attention as CM) being welcomed into or able to afford one of these new retail spaces, or perhaps anywhere in the core of Southend any longer. I know that's the way things tend to go in a growing city, but we have so few areas like this that I can't help but lament it especially when I still see less dismay from the community about it than I did for a single firehouse. 

Anyway I've said my piece now, so I'll bow out of that aspect of this discussion. I do like the new plan and am excited to see if any more incremental improvements are made. 

[Spartan]

I'm going to apologize in advance, but this thread is getting hard to read since all of the sudden there are dozens of architects and city planners on here. Just so we're all clear, this rezoning has nothing to do with whether or not these buildings stay or go. They can be knocked down tomorrow. Whether you like or dislike the site plan, let's also be clear that Duda Paine is getting paid to design what the developer & owner - Cousins & DFA - have paid them to design. The initial plan sucked. That's unquestionable. The current plan is good, very good, and we should be happy that they actually listened and have altered the plan as much as they have. Because it's a build-to-suit, it'll also be built with MUCH higher quality materials than the brick/EFIS beige combo we've gotten so used to in this cycle and that everyone loves to point out and complain about, yet there's no credit or acknowledgement to that. To the question of why don't they just make it taller and save the existing buildings - the rezoning is for TOD-O and the "O" is for optional provisions, the primary one being that the proposed height already exceeds the allowed height under the TOD zoning by 37 feet. After what happened with the Midtown Centre rezoning, where 6 feet somehow made a difference and Cherry residents fought the rezoning the entire way, I think it's very presumptuous and ignorant to assume that Wilmore residents won't have a say and don't have a NIMBYistic point-of-view, and that city council will for some reason discount their opinions because Wilmore residents apparently don't count or matter. To the argument that businesses are being displaced, where were you when Sedgefield SC was rezoned and those tenants were being displaced? Why no complaints that a dozen or more Atherton tenants are going to be displaced when redeveloped? As much as I love Charlotte and have pride for this city, it makes me shake my head when stuff like this happens. Places like Chapel Hill are known for NIMBYism and being anti-growth/development, but at least they're consistent. Just like a lot of the city's Panther's fans, they're just jumping on the bandwagon. 

 

Point of clarification - the rezoning does say in the text that it exceeds the height under zoning by 37ft, however that is incorrect. Based on the height plane, the base height restriction is 60ft (as measured from the corner of Park/Tryon). So, they are exceeding the height by 82ft (which it indicates on one of the site plan sheets). Asking to exceed a height restriction by 82ft is a pretty bold move since that's more than twice the allowable height, so IMO they should be offering up some pretty big concessions to the community.

[CLTProductions]

I am working to hopefully provide some design changes at the least. I agree I still don't like the blank wall on Tryon and I am really pushing for individualized storefronts along Camden. I think this will really help character and make it feel less like a glorified strip mall. 

On another note I'm 90% sure the garage will be free after hours and weekends

[CLTProductions]

https://www.charlotteagenda.com/26521/why-the-project-that-ousted-food-truck-friday-is-good-for-south-end/

 

here are the high Rez images and further analysis of the project