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Greenville County Square redevelopment


gman430

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2 hours ago, vicupstate said:

This process has gone on long enough and needs to wrap up in a few months or else it will look like a pipe dream. If they wait too long the economy is going to put the kibosh on it before it can even get underway. 

Which makes me wonder whether this may end up going the way of Magnolia Park, i.e., for a while, all we get is a demolished mall, except for a county office building, and an eventual development that underwhelms in light of what was originally proposed--though I suppose we haven't actually seen any proposals, just perhaps unrealistic numbers.

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12 hours ago, vicupstate said:

This process has gone on long enough and needs to wrap up in a few months or else it will look like a pipe dream. If they wait too long the economy is going to put the kibosh on it before it can even get underway. 

100% agree. I can't read tea leaves, but I feel we're on borrowed time. 

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Not necessarily, it may just take awhile with this large of a site. I'm hoping it means either the developers or the city are spending a little more time on details, and that they are "trying to get this one right."

BTW, I think I remember Project Skyline for this site being proposed at 2.2 Billion, and that was 10 years ago, so today's dollars would probably be like 2.7 B. This, at 1.5, would be significantly less, but still the largest ever for DT. 

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33 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

Not necessarily, it may just take awhile with this large of a site. I'm hoping it means either the developers or the city are spending a little more time on details, and that they are "trying to get this one right."

BTW, I think I remember Project Skyline for this site being proposed at 2.2 Billion, and that was 10 years ago, so today's dollars would probably be like 2.7 B. This, at 1.5, would be significantly less, but still the largest ever for DT. 

Agree....it's a large complex development. I'm glad it's not being rushed as it deserves thoughtful/careful planning.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Do you think the County Square project will directly compete with the Bridgeway Station project in Mauldin?  I'm assuming Hughes did not win the County Square project and wants to fire off his development / capture tenants in Mauldin before the developer for County Square competes for the same business. 

If office space and hotel space is starting to get fat in Greenville's CBD then will the County Square project focus more on residential, restaurants, and small commercial tenants and businesses?  Maybe there is a large corporate relocation rumor out there? 

Who wins the faceoff between County Square and Bridegeway Station, or are they playing in different leagues? 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

So, like Camperdown, the office building for the current tenant will be built before anything else happens on the site. Makes sense.

According to Google Earth, Cobb Tire's building is at 937 ft. The highest point on the entire site (not including the buildings on the other side of U. Ridge) is rougly 980 ft. Here's hoping they truck in a mother lode of dirt to raise the base of their "iconic" building so that those people walking around on top of it in the renderings aren't looking in the first or second story windows of adjacent buildings. I think that raising the ground level along U.Ridge and Church--a relative drop in a $1 billion bucket--would make that County office building really stand out, and done well, could make for a pleasing facade for the whole development.

Or build the mother of all parking garages to level it out and to build on top of, like at Camperdown. But that would likely make for an ugly facade.

Edited by Exile
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34 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Indeed--one bidder that wasn't accepted stated that the land is too valuable for a government office, and a government office wouldn't help retail or restaurant recruitment.

That seems wise to state--how many retailers choose to locate near city halls?  None.  Maybe that bidder should have won, and maybe the new County Square ought to be in another location where land is cheaper. 

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21 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Indeed--one bidder that wasn't accepted stated that the land is too valuable for a government office, and a government office wouldn't help retail or restaurant recruitment.

That seems wise to state--how many retailers choose to locate near city halls?  None.  Maybe that bidder should have won, and maybe the new County Square ought to be in another location where land is cheaper.  

I read that statement and it sounds like they're trying to lure chain restaurants. We don't need a collection TGIFridays, Long Horn, etc (see almost any restaurant on Woodruff or Pelham Road) to locate here. This needs to be an authentic urban development with a strong mixture of uses (including that of office space, i.e. County Square) that blends with the existing West End neighborhood. Not impressed with their analysis of the site. 

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1 hour ago, GvilleSC said:

I read that statement and it sounds like they're trying to lure chain restaurants. We don't need a collection TGIFridays, Long Horn, etc (see almost any restaurant on Woodruff or Pelham Road) to locate here. This needs to be an authentic urban development with a strong mixture of uses (including that of office space, i.e. County Square) that blends with the existing West End neighborhood. Not impressed with their analysis of the site. 

Well, they have a point: county government offices typically aren't a magnet for other commercial development, other than maybe bail bondsmen.   Just how many restaurants and retailers have located at County Square--locally-owned or chains?  Just Cobb Tire (which has been there since the site was a mall) and a cafe that is in the back of the "mall", apparently aimed at workers in the building.

Makes sense to me. 

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3 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Indeed--one bidder that wasn't accepted stated that the land is too valuable for a government office, and a government office wouldn't help retail or restaurant recruitment.

That seems wise to state--how many retailers choose to locate near city halls?  None.  Maybe that bidder should have won, and maybe the new County Square ought to be in another location where land is cheaper. 

 

2 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

I read that statement and it sounds like they're trying to lure chain restaurants. We don't need a collection TGIFridays, Long Horn, etc (see almost any restaurant on Woodruff or Pelham Road) to locate here. This needs to be an authentic urban development with a strong mixture of uses (including that of office space, i.e. County Square) that blends with the existing West End neighborhood. Not impressed with their analysis of the site. 

 

56 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Well, they have a point: county government offices typically aren't a magnet for other commercial development, other than maybe bail bondsmen.   Just how many restaurants and retailers have located at County Square--locally-owned or chains?  Just Cobb Tire (which has been there since the site was a mall) and a cafe that is in the back of the "mall", apparently aimed at workers in the building.

Makes sense to me. 

It makes sense until you look at their site plan and it has the most surface parking. Land is too valuable for a multistory building that serves the public but not to valuable to use up for parking. Had to pick my eyes up off the floor for that one. 

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Good story here with renderings from the other proposals: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/get-access/?return=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenvilleonline.com%2Fstory%2Fmoney%2F2018%2F07%2F14%2Fcounty-releases-vision-turning-old-mall-into-1-billion-downtown-district%2F773979002%2F

A few observations: 

-RocaPoint and Armada Hoffler had very similar proposals but I like the design of the county square building with RocaPoint’s project more. Armada Hoffler’s building is just flat out boring and has been recycled everywhere enough already. No word how they would finance really hurt their chances at being selected. 

-Carolina Holdings/Fletcher Development’s layout looks like something that belongs in the suburbs not downtown. Wayyy too much surface parking also especially around the movie theater. However, there would be no county office building anywhere on site. That could be good or bad depending on how you look at it.  

-Crosland Southeast’s/Northwood Ravin’s proposal is very similar to Armada Hoffler and Rocapoint’s proposal in terms of layout and height but the county office building would be built across University Ridge where the health department building currently stands which might be a good thing overall. However, just like with Armada Hoffler’s rendering for the county office building, it doesn’t look as nice as the one with RocaPoint in my opinion.

-East West Partner’s proposal has the high rises everybody wanted along with a twin of the Furman Bell Tower. Financing and layout are exactly the same as RocaPoint’s. Not sure why they weren’t selected. Maybe it had to do with RocaPoint being a larger company which would probably make it easier for them to get financing and finishing the project in budget over East West Partners.

-Municipal Consolidation and Construction’s proposal is vey similar to East West Partners but it really lacks with commercial space (only 60,000 square feet.) The height of the proposed county office building sure looks good though. 

 

Even though it lacks height, I still like RocaPoint’s proposal the best. The size, architecture, layout, financing, amenities, and mixed use elements put them at the top over any of the other proposals. East West Partners proposal is a very close second though. Hopefully some of these development companies who weren’t selected will decide to build elsewhere downtown. Oh and here is what RocaPoint has in mind for the site at full build: 

23569DCB-5D22-4C20-9F35-62DB9C66E72D.jpeg

Edited by gman430
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