Greenville County Square redevelopment

[Exile]

2 hours ago, vicupstate said:

If the private sector could do those projects at a profit, it would have already done them.   It hasn't. 

This is the second time you've said that in a conversation of this sort (the last time, I believe, about the proposed museum/convention complex).

Apart from the issues connected to County Square or West End, what you seem to be saying--correct me if I'm wrong--is that money-losing projects that are subjectively desirable to certain people (i.e., those in power and those who agree with them) are worth forcing the public to pay for and to subsidize. How is this just?

Should we create a digression thread, a la Charlotte?

[Exile]

5 hours ago, Spero said:

This is a weird takeaway dude. You can yell at people about Ayn Rand elsewhere 

Take it as rhetorical overstatement. If you've paid any attention to what P&K has said on other issues, it's patently clear P&K isn't anywhere near a Randian, and doesn't reject the place of government in society/business.

In other words, read between the lines and deal with the substance.

[gman430]

And you all expect the county to give Hughes money for his museum project.  Yeah...that’d be the day.  

Edited May 8, 2019 by gman430

[CLT_sc]

3 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Huh?

A $1 billion real estate investment won't be profitable?  All of the projections about net income from the new construction are false? 

This hasn't been done because government owns the site and wants to run the process.  Not because the private sector can't or won't do it.

The Charlotte train station has received more than enough dedicated funds to start work, but it's been over 10 years and it's still talk.  Conversely, Brightline in Florida has built numerous stunning new train stations and complexes around the Miami area in a fraction of the time.

The score so far:

Government: 0

Private Sector: 1

 

 

The latter at least is certainly an example of my rule of thumb: people in the public sector are often people who can't succeed in the private sector.  See what he's done with Daddy's money (the NY Times reports that he's lost $1 billion in the 1980s and 1990s, and if he had just invested Daddy's money in index funds, he would have made a lot more).

Just a clarification on the Charlotte train station, the funding for that project was diverted to Raleigh.  Not 100% sure of the reason, but the complexity of how the tracks need to be configured north of 277 was an issue which needed to be resolved prior to the actual train station being built.  They are currently working on expanding the tracks in the downtown area.  I agree this has been slow, I don’t agree with the assumption why.

Besides, private  enterprise holds projects for years as well for many many reasons, not all of them sound. 

Public/private ventures are beneficial to communities in instances.  I don’t know enough about this project to have a great opinion other than 5 stories is not a tower and more office space is not needed in Greenville.  But, to suggest that government involvement is inherently bad is not a correct assumption.  Each case is specific and unique.

[vicupstate]

Quote

 

A $1 billion real estate investment won't be profitable?  All of the projections about net income from the new construction are false? 

This hasn't been done because government owns the site and wants to run the process.  Not because the private sector can't or won't do it.

The Charlotte train station has received more than enough dedicated funds to start work, but it's been over 10 years and it's still talk.  Conversely, Brightline in Florida has built numerous stunning new train stations and complexes around the Miami area in a fraction of the time.

 

I was referring to the Train station not being profitable (without public investment). The Train station is not akin to County Square at all, but I didn't bring it into the conversation. 

But as for the Train station, you do not 'start work' on something unless you  can fund the whole thing, or at least what it is anticipated to cost based on the best estimates.  A half completed rail line wouldn't serve any purpose at all.   Is Brightline offered to do privately what Charlotte is seeking to do publicly? If not, they aren't an option. What might be profitable  in South FL might not be profitable in Charlotte.  Also, Brightline issued tax-exempt bonds that normally only a governemnt would be able to do.        

  

[Exile]

"I don't see building a big thing that would be a large debt that me and taxpayers will be left to pay for." I agree with Mike Barnes' sentiment, though I have no idea whether his take represents the actual situation.

But setting aside the political arguments, it's clear that this thing has been mismanaged badly. I'm not a lawyer, but I would hope that whether Roca Point would have standing to sue would depend at least somewhat on their own due diligence--which was apparently lacking. I can't imagine that a savvy real estate company wouldn't have researched Greenville County's dysfunction. I can attest to the fact that it goes back a very long way.

But ultimately it's based on any signed contracts, of course.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Exile

[vicupstate]

2 hours ago, Exile said:

But none of those entities can reach into your pocket to solve their problems.

That is, unless a governmental entity gives them leave to do so.

My point is that the contention that the public sector can only make bad judgements and mistakes and the private sector never does,  is bogus.  A public entity selling an asset that it owns (to a private entity) is not an example of how the public vs. private sectors operate. The snafu in this case is one of bad management, no different than the bad management decisions which lead to Sears, Wachovia, World COmm, Enron, etc. going broke.       

1 hour ago, Exile said:

This is the second time you've said that in a conversation of this sort (the last time, I believe, about the proposed museum/convention complex).

Apart from the issues connected to County Square or West End, what you seem to be saying--correct me if I'm wrong--is that money-losing projects that are subjectively desirable to certain people (i.e., those in power and those who agree with them) are worth forcing the public to pay for and to subsidize. How is this just?

Should we create a digression thread, a la Charlotte?

Lots of things don't turn a monetary profit.  National defense, transportation, fire Departments, police Deaprtments, libraries, and national parks would be examples.  That doesn't mean they are unnecessary and we should just do without them.      

[Exile]

Just now, vicupstate said:

My point is that the contention that the public sector can only make bad judgements and mistakes and the private sector never does,  is bogus.  A public entity selling an asset that it owns (to a private entity) is not an example of how the public vs. private sectors operate. The snafu in this case is one of bad management, no different than the bad management decisions which lead to Sears, Wachovia, World COmm, Enron, etc. going broke.       

I don't know that I've ever heard anyone assert such a thing. Even hard libertarians recognize that human beings in public office (or aspiring thereto) are capable of good judgment and sometimes exercise it. Otherwise, why would, e.g., Ron Paul have essentially endorsed Tulsi Gabbard?

[PuppiesandKittens]

15 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

I was referring to the Train station not being profitable (without public investment). The Train station is not akin to County Square at all, but I didn't bring it into the conversation. 

But as for the Train station, you do not 'start work' on something unless you  can fund the whole thing, or at least what it is anticipated to cost based on the best estimates.  A half completed rail line wouldn't serve any purpose at all.   Is Brightline offered to do privately what Charlotte is seeking to do publicly? If not, they aren't an option. What might be profitable  in South FL might not be profitable in Charlotte.  Also, Brightline issued tax-exempt bonds that normally only a governemnt would be able to do.        

  

I flew down to Miami and took a ride on Brightline, to see what private-sector train stations and private-sector railroads are like.

Brightline is magnificent.

The stations are gleaming, high-tech and futuristic, and they're part of larger real estate developments; I believe that the main one in Miami is "WorldCenter" or something.  The station itself is downtown--similar to uptown Charlotte.  The station itself of course isn't profitable, but it's part of a complex that is, and is hoped to be more profitable than a normal commercial complex would be, because of the rail line.  Sort of like Grand Central was built as the centerpiece of a massive commercial complex in midtown Manhattan.

* The main Brightline station was built even though the whole line (to Orlando) wasn't built or even funded. It was also built even before the rest of the complex was planned.

* The Brightline rail line now is only a portion of the planed route.

* Brightline has stated that it would like to have a Charlotte-Atlanta line.

* Brightline believes that Charlotte-Atlanta will be as viable as its other lines are.

* Brightline used bonds that are available to private-sector businesses.

And Brightline did this all in just a few years: a fraction of the time that the Charlotte train station has been in the idea stage.

[vicupstate]

47 minutes ago, gman430 said:

And you all expect the county to give Hughes money for his museum project.  Yeah...that’d be the day.  

They gave Bob Jones money for the old museum location on campus and also the one that closed in Heritage Green. BJU is a very key part of the GOP ruling class and 10 of 12 of the members are Republicans. I just  hope giving money is all they have a hand in, not the management of the project.       

[Exile]

5 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

My point is that the contention that the public sector can only make bad judgements and mistakes and the private sector never does,  is bogus.  A public entity selling an asset that it owns (to a private entity) is not an example of how the public vs. private sectors operate. The snafu in this case is one of bad management, no different than the bad management decisions which lead to Sears, Wachovia, World COmm, Enron, etc. going broke.       

Lots of things don't turn a monetary profit.  National defense, transportation, fire Departments, police Deaprtments, libraries, and national parks would be examples.  That doesn't mean they are unnecessary and we should jsut do without them.      

I agree with you in principle. Our difference basically seems to turn on the boundary between what's objectively necessary and subjectively desirable. IMO, you can't make a rational argument that either the County Square development or the Convention complex are necessary. Desirable? Sure.

How about the county just get out of the ownership of developed real estate altogether and lease like pretty much everyone else?

[PuppiesandKittens]

16 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

My point is that the contention that the public sector can only make bad judgements and mistakes and the private sector never does,  is bogus.  A public entity selling an asset that it owns (to a private entity) is not an example of how the public vs. private sectors operate. The snafu in this case is one of bad management, no different than the bad management decisions which lead to Sears, Wachovia, World COmm, Enron, etc. going broke.       

Lots of things don't turn a monetary profit.  National defense, transportation, fire Departments, police Deaprtments, libraries, and national parks would be examples.  That doesn't mean they are unnecessary and we should just do without them.      

First paragraph: the private sector makes terrible judgments and mistakes.  I see plenty of them.  However, the private sector usually uses money only voluntarily given to it, unlike tax money, and in the aggregate, the private sector, overall, is more efficient than the public sector.

There are many places where government is the only or best solution, but we shouldn't run to government for a solution without considering the private sector when the private sector can be an option.  Real estate is one place where government certainly isn't the only solution.

[vicupstate]

Quote

 

* The main Brightline station was built even though the whole line (to Orlando) wasn't built or even funded. It was also built even before the rest of the complex was planned.

* The Brightline rail line now is only a portion of the planed route.

* Brightline has stated that it would like to have a Charlotte-Atlanta line.

* Brightline believes that Charlotte-Atlanta will be as viable as its other lines are.

* Brightline used bonds that are available to private-sector businesses.

 

The South Florida portion of the route is the profitable, so building it as a stand alone still made financial sense. 

The Charlotte route we are speaking of is a Commuter line connecting Northern Mecklenburg to Uptown Charlotte, not a line connecting other distant cities to Charlotte. 

Generally these category of bonds are only for private businesses that serve a public need.  Hospitals use them for instance.    

[gman430]

Just kill it already. I’m tired of waiting. Hopefully RocaPoint sues also for breach of contract. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by gman430

[vicupstate]

Just got an email saying there wil be a Community Meeting on County Square on May 14 at 6:00 pm in Suite 400 of the building.  This is to get public comments on the modifications to the PD zoning. 

I will be out of town and unable to attend myself.   

[gman430]

11 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

Just got an email saying there wil be a Community Meeting on County Square on May 14 at 6:00 pm in Suite 400 of the building.  This is to get public comments on the modifications to the PD zoning. 

I will be out of town and unable to attend myself.   

So they’re going to have a meeting on a project that is pretty much dead? Why? Talk about confusing. Hopefully, I will be able to attend.

Edited May 8, 2019 by gman430

[PuppiesandKittens]

37 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

The South Florida portion of the route is the profitable, so building it as a stand alone still made financial sense. 

The Charlotte route we are speaking of is a Commuter line connecting Northern Mecklenburg to Uptown Charlotte, not a line connecting other distant cities to Charlotte. 

Generally these category of bonds are only for private businesses that serve a public need.  Hospitals use them for instance.    

The Charlotte "Gateway Station" will also serve Charlotte-Raleigh, Charlotte-NY and NY-Charlotte-New Orleans trains.

Brightline has stated publicly that it wants to run a Charlotte-Atlanta line.  Having enough tracks for all of these lines--including the Northern Mecklenburg commuter line-wouldn't be much--maybe 4 tracks total?  Brightline could have built a station to handle all of that by now; in Miami, it's working with commuter RRs to build station capacity for them as well as part of its stations.

[CLT_sc]

10 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

The Charlotte "Gateway Station" will also serve Charlotte-Raleigh, Charlotte-NY and NY-Charlotte-New Orleans trains.

Brightline has stated publicly that it wants to run a Charlotte-Atlanta line.  Having enough tracks for all of these lines--including the Northern Mecklenburg commuter line-wouldn't be much--maybe 4 tracks total?  Brightline could have built a station to handle all of that by now; in Miami, it's working with commuter RRs to build station capacity for them as well as part of its stations.

Saying that Brightline could have done this by now is similar to cheering for the 2nd team QB.  There are more issues to overcome in CLT than just putting up a structure.  And, that is why money allocated for CLT was shifted to Raleigh’s new station.  Any entity will need to iron out the tracks just north of 277 which is what they are currently doing.  This involves track relocation and tunnels/bridges.  You are making this too simplistic.  Brightline would come to the local governments to iron out the same issues you are currently seeing.

[gman430]

What does Charlotte and Brightline have to do with County Square in Greenville? Can we back on topic please? 

Edited May 8, 2019 by gman430

[btoy]

The article says that if the county does back out they can not enter in to a new agreement with anyone else for 10 years.  So if this doesn't work out they will not be trying again anytime soon.

[GVLover]

Maybe I’m an outlier here, but I feel cooler heads will prevail. I would hope conversations are happening between council members everyday before the meeting/vote. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by GVLover

[GVLprogrowth]

It is my understanding that the $33 million dollar price tag for the Flour buildings included the value of the long term lease the county would sign and a large TI upfit, and the rent. If you were buying a fully leased, upfited(this tenant improvement allowance would be offered as part of the lease) long term 200k+ sf building it would probably fetch that price. If that is true, I dont understand why that fact hasn't been more apparent in the description of that transaction. 

[vicupstate]

I thought they were buying the building and doing their own alterations?

[PuppiesandKittens]

20 hours ago, btoy said:

The article says that if the county does back out they can not enter in to a new agreement with anyone else for 10 years.  So if this doesn't work out they will not be trying again anytime soon.

Perhaps they can just reconvert County Square back into a mall then.

[gman]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Perhaps they can just reconvert County Square back into a mall then.

Might as well convert it back to a downtown campus for Furman U.