Greenville County Square redevelopment

[vicupstate]

An 8-10 year build out has been the expectation from day 1.  Even without it being explictly stated, that would  be a reasonable expectation.

[PuppiesandKittens]

6 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

An 8-10 year build out has been the expectation from day 1.  Even without it being explictly stated, that would  be a reasonable expectation.

Thanks.  So then basically everything on that master plan should be taken with a grain of salt.  If a fitness center, movie theater and grocery store won't be built for 10 years, and there's no letter of intent signed by any operator, then mentioning them is simply aspirational.

[gman430]

4 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Thanks.  So then basically everything on that master plan should be taken with a grain of salt.  If a fitness center, movie theater and grocery store won't be built for 10 years, and there's no letter of intent signed by any operator, then mentioning them is simply aspirational.

Correct. It’s all dependent on what tenants RocaPoint can land and how good the economy is over the next decade. 

[GvilleSC]

16 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Thanks.  So then basically everything on that master plan should be taken with a grain of salt.  If a fitness center, movie theater and grocery store won't be built for 10 years, and there's no letter of intent signed by any operator, then mentioning them is simply aspirational.

It's their vision for the site and it's very possible that it will evolve over the duration of the build out. I wouldn't get hung up on the details. 

[vicupstate]

27 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Thanks.  So then basically everything on that master plan should be taken with a grain of salt.  If a fitness center, movie theater and grocery store won't be built for 10 years, and there's no letter of intent signed by any operator, then mentioning them is simply aspirational.

That is, by definition, what a Master Plan is. NO Master Plan is ever written in stone, nor is its timeline.  The fitness center, grocery store, movie theater might come as soon as the infrastructure is in place ,or it might be five years after that.  Or it might not come at all.  Master Plans represent  the vision and the intention, but they are always subject to change.  For the most part they are pretty predictive though.  

Bull Street Commons in Columbia and West Edge in Charleston will take 10 years to complete too. Could be more, could be less.  Bull Street seems a little behind schedule and West Edge somewhat ahead. Riverplace took a lot longer than 10 years because of the crash. Verdae took 20 years and counting.  The Gateway master plan will likewise not come out of the ground all at once.   

BTW, Letters of Intent don't mean its a lock by any means. Bull Street Commons supposedly had 30 or more, but so far either none or one of those panned out, so far.  

Right now all I care about is getting the upcoming Planning Commission approval and getting the  Family Court moved, because those are the first obstacles.  Once the County building is complete, I don't see much that could sidetrack this.  The site is too good and RocoPoint will be looking to make their profit. 

 

[PuppiesandKittens]

5 hours ago, vicupstate said:

That is, by definition, what a Master Plan is. NO Master Plan is ever written in stone, nor is its timeline.  The fitness center, grocery store, movie theater might come as soon as the infrastructure is in place ,or it might be five years after that.  Or it might not come at all.  Master Plans represent  the vision and the intention, but they are always subject to change.  For the most part they are pretty predictive though.  

Bull Street Commons in Columbia and West Edge in Charleston will take 10 years to complete too. Could be more, could be less.  Bull Street seems a little behind schedule and West Edge somewhat ahead. Riverplace took a lot longer than 10 years because of the crash. Verdae took 20 years and counting.  The Gateway master plan will likewise not come out of the ground all at once.   

BTW, Letters of Intent don't mean its a lock by any means. Bull Street Commons supposedly had 30 or more, but so far either none or one of those panned out, so far.  

Right now all I care about is getting the upcoming Planning Commission approval and getting the  Family Court moved, because those are the first obstacles.  Once the County building is complete, I don't see much that could sidetrack this.  The site is too good and RocoPoint will be looking to make their profit. 

 

Yes, you're right; I would think though that it would be a good idea to get a letter of intent from a "name" retailer or movie theater chain, to generate more interest.

Is this site great?  I don't know.  It sure didn't work for retail before, and the Master Plan doesn't include enough retail to make this a major destination- it's more like the amount of retail that a decent-sized strip mall would have.

[vicupstate]

Considering how early it is, I don't think an LOI is a reasonable expectation.  Comparing the retail potential  in three years to what it was in 1975 is not real telling, IMO. The 5 mile radius of this site has changed dramatically in that time.   

[PuppiesandKittens]

Fair point about the LOIs. 

But is the site more viable now for retail than it was in 1975?  The site is basically invisible (since such a small portion of it fronts Church Street) and not directly accessible from a major highway.  It's not right on Main Street, either.  I think that it would need a much larger amount of retail than planned to become a major draw. 

[gman]

3 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Fair point about the LOIs. 

But is the site more viable now for retail than it was in 1975?  The site is basically invisible (since such a small portion of it fronts Church Street) and not directly accessible from a major highway.  It's not right on Main Street, either.  I think that it would need a much larger amount of retail than planned to become a major draw. 

I’m thinking almost every commercial site in Greenville is more viable for retail than it was in 1975. 

[gman430]

3 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Fair point about the LOIs. 

But is the site more viable now for retail than it was in 1975?  The site is basically invisible (since such a small portion of it fronts Church Street) and not directly accessible from a major highway.  It's not right on Main Street, either.  I think that it would need a much larger amount of retail than planned to become a major draw. 

The retail/restaurant space at SouthRidge across the street is completely full. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

7 minutes ago, gman430 said:

The retail/restaurant space at SouthRidge across the street is completely full. 

Yes, that’s right on Church Street, very visible to cars and right next to residents.

Look at County Square, though: you’d easily miss it unless you knew it was there, if you were driving along Church Street.

When Bell Tower Mall opened, news reports at the time promised that it was a sign of a strong downtown.  And we know how that turned out.

[cabelagent]

2 hours ago, gman430 said:

The retail/restaurant space at SouthRidge across the street is completely full. 

Yes...believe it will take LOTS of new retail to make the new county square appealing & successful.  That is ideal as it will bring people/consumers into downtown area....which (unfortunately) leads to much more traffic. I was downtown vicinity yesterday...Church St. (heading north) was in grid-lock approx. 2PM.  Traffic was backed up over the bridge almost back to Augusta Rd. There's real need for good traffic flow in the vicinity...people will not make the trek to shop downtown if they spend most of their time stuck in traffic.  It was exciting to see the new construction cranes....an additional one for new Grand Bohemian will be super.   

[vicupstate]

McBee Station has limited visibility but it  does just fine.  The people that will be going there are the ones that live on site or live in the Augusta Road corridor or DT proper. Do you really think they won't know its there?  

The population and income levels of DT and Augusta Road areas are much higher than in the '70's.  By the time this is finished all of David Stone's land will probably be filled up too.   McAlister is gone, and Haywood is past its prime.  

Once the 2020 cenus reflects all of the population and income growth of the last 10 years, it will spark interest too, IMO.   

[gman430]

13 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Yes, that’s right on Church Street, very visible to cars and right next to residents.

Look at County Square, though: you’d easily miss it unless you knew it was there, if you were driving along Church Street.

When Bell Tower Mall opened, news reports at the time promised that it was a sign of a strong downtown.  And we know how that turned out.

Yes but remember what downtown was like then. Nothing but boarded up shops, prostitutes, drug dealers, and homeless people. Times have changed. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

6 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Yes but remember what downtown was like then. Nothing but boarded up shops, prostitutes, drug dealers, and homeless people. Times have changed. 

Not in my recollection.  In 1975, downtown had multiple department stores and lots of other large stores.  It was declining and unattractive but was still a major retail destination.  Plus most of Greenville’s office space was there.  It was even more a center of commerce (measured by market share) than it is now.

[Exile]

37 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Not in my recollection.  In 1975, downtown had multiple department stores and lots of other large stores.  It was declining and unattractive but was still a major retail destination.  Plus most of Greenville’s office space was there.  It was even more a center of commerce (measured by market share) than it is now.

This is true. Contrary to what's often said about it, downtown never died. It was definitely sucking retail wind for a while, but up to the point that Greenville Commons opened for business there were still stores like Tanners, the Red Baron, Edens Estes, the Open Book, O'Neal Williams, Sedran Furs, Cochran Jewelers, Hales and their sidewalk clock, and a number of others. I always preferred the downtown Belk to others till it closed and moved to HM, but again, that was about the time that the Commons opened. Up till I moved away from Greenville in the late 80's, I did most of what shopping I do (which isn't much) downtown. I still wear the watch I bought at Hales DT in 1987. DT was revitalized, not resurrected.

Edited June 8, 2019 by Exile

[gman430]

I stand by my statement. Even with the department stores, downtown is still MUCH better today than it was in 1975. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

50 minutes ago, gman430 said:

I stand by my statement. Even with the department stores, downtown is still MUCH better today than it was in 1975. 

Yes, it's night-and-day different and nicer.  I agree that it's "MUCH better today than it was in 1975."

Your statement above, though, was that downtown in 1975 was "Nothing but boarded up shops, prostitutes, drug dealers, and homeless people."  I am unable to agree with that.  It was kind of run down, but it still had a fair share of commercial activity.  Its low point was in the 1980s.  My family didn't spend much time downtown , but we could have since there were things there.  When I worked downtown in the early 90s, I was surprised at how much business the stores that were there did, as dead as downtown seemed.

Edited June 8, 2019 by PuppiesandKittens

[Exile]

I too stand by your statement "times have changed." And I agree that it's way better now than it was in '75.

It's the other one that's waaaay overstated.

And one other point: the empty shops weren't generally "boarded up." I can't say there were none like that, but if there were shops literally boarded up, they were very few and far between.

[Exile]

I've mentioned some of this variously before, but it bears repeating because of common misconceptions about DT in the 70's and 80's. Random thoughts--not intended to be exhaustive.

1) General Hospital (RIP) was still the main GHS hospital up till at least the mid-80's. I worked at GMH in 1981 and it was definitely still the second banana. So, while the writing was on the wall for Pendleton Street, there were still lots and lots of medical offices up and down and around, even on Anderson St. This created an embedded and affluent clientele for both BTM (which otherwise was misconceived) and for DT;

2) Add to that St. Francis, which has always been growing and is just a stone's throw from the old GGH site.

3) Furman was still playing football games downtown till at least 1980, which, though it was only 6 weekends during the Fall, still kept a certain buzz going in the area.

4) The Curb Market, which was where 1 and 2 Liberty are now, was still operating well into the 70's, though I don't remember when it closed down.  My mother used to drag me down there frequently, and it was often busy.

5) Rich little old ladies shopped downtown regularly--there and Lewis Plaza--which they wouldn't have done if they had felt unsafe.

6) P&K mentioned the business community downtown. It was always pretty vigorous--banks, S&L's, attorneys, Daniel-then-Fluor, IBM, etc. One and Two liberty were both built in the '80's. That's a lot of office space for li'l ole Greenville. There hasn't been anything close to that infusion of office space since, not even One or Camperdown.

7) The Memorial Auditorium (RIP) pretty much always had something going on all the way up till the end.

Now what is true is that things changed after about 6pm. Parts of DT after dark were not places to take a stroll, definitely, but that wasn't true of all of DT. The sketchy stuff tended to be south of Coffee and west of Main. Charlie's Steak House thrived on Coffee. There were other pretty good restaurants here and there that operated at night, along with the Summit Club.

Seems to me in retrospect that downtown revitalization was as much proactive as reactive. With the Commons in place by 1981, lots of office construction in the 80's, along with the complete redo of Main St., the seeds were planted, and the soil was good. Opening the Peace Center in 1990 pushed DT over the edge, and then things really started to happen.

[vicupstate]

Obviously DT has been through some long cycles up and down.  I imagine the opening in 1980 of Haywood Mall marked a tipping point in the negative.  It is true that Hyatt and the Liberty Office buildings came slightly after that.  I moved here in '96 and while there was pretty decent life around the Hyatt, the block with Poisett Plaza was almost completely vacant. The Carolina First bank on the corner was open but south from there nothing was open until you got to the Symphony office by City Hall. On the opposite side,  the Carpenter Drug building and the building  next to it were  renovated and occupied.   There was the strip of condos  alongside that.  That  was pretty much all that was occupied on that side.    I would imagine the bottom  point was the late '80's and early '90's.  

[PuppiesandKittens]

5 hours ago, vicupstate said:

 I would imagine the bottom  point was the late '80's and early '90's.  

Correct.  There were always some stores downtown, particularly in the blocks around the Hyatt, though, and the restaurants did a decent business (back in the days where the alternatives were, on the high end, Vince Perone's on Antrim Drive).  Nobody I knew ever shopped much in those stores, and in the 1980s and 1990s you certainly would head to a mall for real shopping and would not have even considered downtown except for specific one-of-a-kind items (such as my grandparents going to McMahan Shoes for odd sizes or something).  The few stores that downtown had certainly held up, though, dusty as they were. It's definitely not like it is now, when downtown can be your #1 destination, even for shopping, and an A-grade retailer would certainly not have even considered downtown for a new location back then; the stores that downtown had were just holdovers.  

Edited June 9, 2019 by PuppiesandKittens

[Exile]

8 hours ago, vicupstate said:

 I moved here in '96 and while there was pretty decent life around the Hyatt, the block with Poisett Plaza was almost completely vacant. The Carolina First bank on the corner was open but south from there nothing was open until you got to the Symphony office by City Hall. On the opposite side,  the Carpenter Drug building and the building  next to it were  renovated and occupied.   There was the strip of condos  alongside that.  That  was pretty much all that was occupied on that side.    I would imagine the bottom  point was the late '80's and early '90's.  

The Poinsett block was bad because of the two big empty buildings (Poinsett and the Courthouse), which were attractions for vagrants. If anything got boarded up, it was probably the Poinsett, though as I recall Drake's Florist had a streetfront store in an otherwise empty Poinsett. The opening of the Westin plugged that hole. But even that area wasn't totally derelict: Trattoria Giorgio opened there in the mid-90's, replacing another restaurant that had been there for some time and served daytime business clientele, whose name I can't remember. And after the old Chamber/Liberty Life building survived a demolition proposal in the late 70's, it seemed to thrive as small-office space. And didn't the old Belk Building get put to some use for a while? Children's Theater?

But you're right: in the 90's, downtown was tipped quite a bit toward the north end. Other than Peace Center events, I rarely went south of Coffee, even when I lived in Greenville for a while during the 90's. Now, I can't recall the last time I went anywhere north of Coffee. Unless you count Coffee Underground.

[gman430]

Surveyors on site today spray painting markings all over the place. 

[cabelagent]

1 hour ago, gman430 said:

Surveyors on site today spray painting markings all over the place. 

Any sign of a tower crane sneaking around the site?