Greenville County Square redevelopment

[gman430]

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Item/6335?fileID=31155

[gman430]

For Zone F:

“A minimum of 10% of residential units within Zone F shall consist of affordable housing, defined as 80% AMI, Income Restricted. Affordable housing that may be provided in other Zones will not be counted as part of the 10% requirement.”

[cabelagent]

2 hours ago, gman430 said:

For Zone F:

“A minimum of 10% of residential units within Zone F shall consist of affordable housing, defined as 80% AMI, Income Restricted. Affordable housing that may be provided in other Zones will not be counted as part of the 10% requirement.”

Thx...sorry, can you explain what this means? Assume this is roadmap for inclusion of affordable housing for square development....is this what is causing issues? 

[GvilleSC]

2 hours ago, gman430 said:

For Zone F:

“A minimum of 10% of residential units within Zone F shall consist of affordable housing, defined as 80% AMI, Income Restricted. Affordable housing that may be provided in other Zones will not be counted as part of the 10% requirement.”

I wonder what the City's target is for total number of affordable units? 

My only problem with the current wording is this: there's a chance (however small) that zone F sees no residential programming and thus no affordable housing. So, I think there needs to be some sort of definition for the minimum number of affordable units across the entire development.

Nonetheless, I'm glad to see the developer working with the City. The County only needs to worry about the deal happening and their new building's delivery. As it stands right now, the developer seems to be willing to put forth a good faith effort to deliver a successful project that appeases the City, or at least meets in the middle somewhere. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by GvilleSC

[apaladin]

Still think this is going to drag on forever before any actual construction if ever.  Let's meet, ok? Ok we've met let's get together again after Christmas and meet again yada, yada.... Call me pessimistic. 

[vicupstate]

Upcoming dates on this project:

10/10: Meeting with Neighborhood Presidents

10/11: Staff Review will be released

10/14: Deadline for submission of letters to planning Commission from the public

10/15: Workshop for Planning Commission, County and Roca Point

10/17:  Planning Commission meeting

11/25: City Council meets for First Reading

12/9: City Council meets for 2nd Reading.  New members will be seated. 

 

If you support the project, I HIGHLY recommend that you submit a letter to the Planning Commission.

 

[PuppiesandKittens]

On 10/3/2019 at 3:06 AM, apaladin said:

Still think this is going to drag on forever before any actual construction if ever.  Let's meet, ok? Ok we've met let's get together again after Christmas and meet again yada, yada.... Call me pessimistic. 

Agreed.  Didn't it take about 12 years between Furman's relocation and Bell Tower Mall opening, and at least 5 years between the releasing of plans for the mall until the mall's opening?  And this is a much bigger project.

[vicupstate]

The McClaren project is minuscule compared to this one, but even that took many months to get to the point it is at now, which is just demo of the existing buildings.  It was postponed multiple times as well. 

It has already taken years to get to this point on County Square, but it is at the stage where either construction starts within  a few months or the entire project dies.  

[gman430]

Great news to read this morning: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2019/10/09/greenville-sc-adds-10-affordable-housing-mandate-into-county-square/3840398002/

 

The public spat between the city of Greenville, which wants affordable housing included in the $1 billion redevelopment of County Square, and Greenville County, which says it can't afford it on such high-end real estate, appears to be reaching a resolution.

Just what form — if any — affordable housing might take on or near the 37-acre site in downtown Greenville is anyone's guess right now. Greenville County Council Chairman Butch Kirven and Greenville Mayor Knox White told The Greenville News this week that negotiations are ongoing and positive.

"Been working hard since last week right through the weekend," Kirven said by text Tuesday morning to The News. "Situation appears to be evolving towards a good solution."

White agreed that the situation is in flux but improving.

"We've seen lots of versions," White wrote over the weekend in an email to The News. "Bottom line is we are flexible about how to incorporate affordable housing into the project and even help incentivize it in the adjacent Haynie-Sirrine neighborhood." 

Edited October 9, 2019 by gman430

[transplant08]

Haynie-Sirrine, West Greenville, and West End neighborhood associations are all opposed to current request to modify current zoning regs.

[gman430]

2 hours ago, transplant08 said:

Haynie-Sirrine, West Greenville, and West End neighborhood associations are all opposed to current request to modify current zoning regs.

Ehhh...just a bunch of a NIMBY’s who don’t like high rises. They’ll live. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by gman430

[transplant08]

2 hours ago, gman430 said:

Ehhh...just a bunch of a NIMBY’s who don’t like high rises. They’ll live. 

Well, in their defense, Haynie-Sirrine spent years working with the city to develop a master plan that outlined how they would like the county square property developed. The city agreed with the plan. The city put those ideas into the zoning regs.

I think we can all agree that master plans and zoning regs are a good thing. And if so, we shouldn't disregard them lightly.

Edited October 9, 2019 by transplant08

[gman430]

7 minutes ago, transplant08 said:

Well, in their defense, Haynie-Sirrine spent years working with the city to develop a master plan that outlined how they would like the county square property developed. The city agreed with the plan. The city put those ideas into the zoning regs.

I think we can all agree that master plans and zoning regs are a good thing. And if so, we shouldn't disregard them lightly.

Knox White’s comments regarding that in the article say it all. 

[transplant08]

50 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Knox White’s comments regarding that in the article say it all. 

looks to me on p.38 of the master plan that it includes University Ridge all the way from Church to Augusta. That runs right through the heart of this development. Why create a master plan if you are going to ignore it?

 

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/296/Haynie-Sirrine-Master-Plan-PDF?bidId=

[GvilleSC]

41 minutes ago, transplant08 said:

looks to me on p.38 of the master plan that it includes University Ridge all the way from Church to Augusta. That runs right through the heart of this development. Why create a master plan if you are going to ignore it?

 

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/296/Haynie-Sirrine-Master-Plan-PDF?bidId=

WELL, that plan is 17 years old. I'm sure nobody in 2002 thought anything remotely this dynamic could come to Church Street/County Square. Things evolve in a growing City, which is why we see the downtown master plan reimagined every so often. Furthermore, they haven't tossed out the entire plan. 

[vicupstate]

38 minutes ago, transplant08 said:

looks to me on p.38 of the master plan that it includes University Ridge all the way from Church to Augusta. That runs right through the heart of this development. Why create a master plan if you are going to ignore it?

 

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/296/Haynie-Sirrine-Master-Plan-PDF?bidId=

 

1) Master Plans are not meant to dictate what exactly will happen to every parcel.  They  guide the overall transformation, but the organic and market aspects don't just disappear.  The plan is a guardrail not a cast mold.  Suburban big box stores were not desired then and still aren't. Because the Master Plan was in place, that didn't happen when Walmart came calling. But I don't think what RocaPoint is planning is in that same category.  Walmart is low density, RocaPoint is more dense. If we don't build denser, then we simply produce even more sprawl.  

2) This was done in 2002 and it's shelf life has been exceeded. In the ensuing 18 years, some things that existed then are long gone, and many things that didn't exist then are now in place.  The 8 O'Clock Superette  was open then, it is gone now. It was planned to be an anchor for a neighborhood retail node. But now it is gone and is replaced with condos. So does it makes sense to maybe put that retail elsewhere?  I would say so.  A very significant  number of residences that were there in 2002 are gone now. Not just the residents but the homes themselves.  

No one in 2002 thought the Greenville we see today would be reality, nor did they see an opportunity this significant as a possibility.   The CBD is filling  up, if we don't allow mid and high rises here, then where do they go instead?   The West End?   More likely they would go to Bridge Way Station in Mauldin, which is just more gas on the sprawl fire.   

 

 

[gman430]

1 hour ago, transplant08 said:

looks to me on p.38 of the master plan that it includes University Ridge all the way from Church to Augusta. That runs right through the heart of this development. Why create a master plan if you are going to ignore it?

 

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/296/Haynie-Sirrine-Master-Plan-PDF?bidId=

That master plan is older than the dinosaurs. 

[gman430]

And here come the NIMBY’s: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2019/10/10/greenville-sc-county-square-neighbors-want-voice-redevelopment-plan/3918985002/

[GvilleSC]

After quickly reading the article, I'm not completely sure I understand what they're looking for to happen.

Affordable housing should be a big positive for the community, and additional places to dine and shop (within walking distance!) seem like benefits to me. If it takes TWO twenty story buildings and multiple eight story structures to make the math work for that to happen, then so be it. 

[gman430]

11 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

After quickly reading the article, I'm not completely sure I understand what they're looking for to happen.

Affordable housing should be a big positive for the community, and additional places to dine and shop (within walking distance!) seem like benefits to me. If it takes TWO twenty story buildings and multiple eight story structures to make the math work for that to happen, then so be it. 

What they’re looking for is a bunch of affordable three story buildings so the people working at McDonald’s making $9 an hour flipping burgers have a place to live at the taxpayers expense. 

Edited October 10, 2019 by gman430

[motonenterprises]

1 hour ago, gman430 said:

What they’re looking for is a bunch of affordable three story buildings so the people working at McDonald’s making $9 an hour flipping burgers have a place to live at the taxpayers expense. 

Hmm. At least they're trying to work. Not everyone is as fortunate as me or you. Right?

[transplant08]

Southernside neighborhood association also now against it.

Short video articulating basic concerns

 

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by transplant08

[gman430]

A little too late for these neighborhood associations to be rallying against the project isn’t it? They’ve had literally years and plenty of meetings to have their voices heard. Besides, do they not realize this project will help their property values and turn an eyesore of a site into something great? 

Edited October 11, 2019 by gman430

[gman430]

https://greenvillejournal.com/2019/10/10/kirven-pens-letter-to-mayor-with-proposed-solutions-to-county-square-redevelopment-debate/

[vicupstate]

This is not going to be an easy vote politically for the council to make. There is some opposition  and it is fairly well organized.  If I were a betting man, I would  expect at least two No votes.  At least one council seat is going to change hands between the first and 2nd vote too, so that adds uncertainty. 

If you support this project, do not take it for granted that it will happen.  Make your support known.