Greenville County Square redevelopment

[ingvegas]

True, that, Vic. I would be okay with a 12-story cap.  Maybe there is room for compromise between the developer the city? 

[GvilleSC]

59 minutes ago, ingvegas said:

True, that, Vic. I would be okay with a 12-story cap.  Maybe there is room for compromise between the developer the city? 

To achieve the same amount of square feet (which is really not negotiable), you may have to allow 12 stories across the entire site, and do away with the 4-6 stories that would currently buffer the existing neighborhoods. Is that an acceptable trade?

[ingvegas]

Not sure I follow the math. As my 8th grade math teacher said, "write down the work you did.

 Two, 20-story buildings are in the current plan. Capping them at 12-story cuts 8-stories of potential square footage. I'm not an architect, but wouldn't allowing another 12-story building gap the deficit? 

[GvilleSC]

22 minutes ago, ingvegas said:

Not sure I follow the math. As my 8th grade math teacher said, "write down the work you did.

 Two, 20-story buildings are in the current plan. Capping them at 12-story cuts 8-stories of potential square footage. I'm not an architect, but wouldn't allowing another 12-story building gap the deficit? 

It all depends on the floor plate for each said building. Chopping out 16 stories from two buildings is a lot of square feet to make up. Depending on the footprints of the other buildings, that may or may not be made up easily across the rest of the site. 

[gman430]

I still don’t understand why some people think it’s okay for these other cities to have highrises built but not Greenville? Why can they have highrises but we can’t? Why can it be done in Charlotte, Atlanta, Nashville, Seattle, Austin, etc. but not Greenville? Honestly, if somebody wanted to build a 1,000 foot building on site I would have no issue with it. 

[ingvegas]

I haven't heard anyone say that Greenville should not have any tall buildings. Project One, Camperdown, etc. - all great projects and appropriately placed.  They could have been made even taller.

Some people just don't think tall buildings on County Square promotes the best overall long-term outcome. I think their opinion is supported by prior master plan recommendations, road infrastructure, the nature of the surrounding neighborhoods, and topography. 

Tall buildings should be built. Build them  on Main Street, the Broad / River District, West Washington, or the Gateway site. 

You don't need a tall building to say you live in a great city. Neighborhoods and the character of the local citizens and leadership make a city, not a 20 story building. 

[gman430]

Honestly, this might be a good thing at the end of the day with all of the chaos currently going on: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2019/11/21/greenville-delays-vote-1-b-plan-redevelop-county-square/4263721002/ Hopefully they work out some sort of compromise where the 20 story buildings are still allowed while catering to the area neighborhood concerns. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by gman430

[Den2Gvl]

15 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Honestly, this might be a good thing at the end of the day with all of the chaos currently going on: https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2019/11/21/greenville-delays-vote-1-b-plan-redevelop-county-square/4263721002/ Hopefully they work out some sort of compromise where the 20 story buildings are still allowed while catering to the area neighborhood concerns. 

I wonder what stance the new City Council members will take though. And I wonder if that has anything to do with moving this to the new year. 

[gman430]

I think it has more to do with all of the upset neighbors rather than the new city council. Fletcher hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding going on with this project. Hopefully the delay solves that issue and gets everybody on the same page. 

“For a billion-dollar project, why not take a month and make sure that everybody understands what’s going to happen,” Fletcher told The News. “It’s more making sure everyone is on board. There’s just a lot of misunderstanding.”

Edited November 21, 2019 by gman430

[gman430]

A series of community design meetings the city organized for the southern downtown area took place last week and gathered ideas from scores of downtown residents on how the Haynie-Sirrine neighborhood and others nearby could be beautified, made more accessible and best be integrated into the County Square development as proposed. Kirven said he is eager to hear more about those meetings and gather input from residents.

[gman430]

Joint statement from neighborhood associations: 

“Together the neighborhood associations of Haynie-Sirrine, Greater Sullivan, West-End, and West Greenville thank our city leadership for hearing our serious concerns with the project. We collectively support the redevelopment of County Square contingent on additional planning and significant community engagement.” 
 

Joint statement from City and County:

“Following the success of last week’s charrette with Urban Design Associates, the City and County have agreed to defer council action on the application to rezone the County Square property in an effort to allow for additional planning. In the spirit of collaboration, both the City and County would like to process the feedback and take time to thoroughly review and address issues that are important to all of us, including the neighborhood residents, such as affordable housing, connectivity and scale. We are committed to being inclusive and transparent and look forward to working together to ensure the best possible development for this important area of the city. We anticipate being able to resolve any outstanding issues in the near future.“

Edited November 22, 2019 by gman430

[CLT_sc]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:21 PM, ingvegas said:

I haven't heard anyone say that Greenville should not have any tall buildings. Project One, Camperdown, etc. - all great projects and appropriately placed.  They could have been made even taller.

Some people just don't think tall buildings on County Square promotes the best overall long-term outcome. I think their opinion is supported by prior master plan recommendations, road infrastructure, the nature of the surrounding neighborhoods, and topography. 

Tall buildings should be built. Build them  on Main Street, the Broad / River District, West Washington, or the Gateway site. 

You don't need a tall building to say you live in a great city. Neighborhoods and the character of the local citizens and leadership make a city, not a 20 story building. 

The math on a 20 story building has to work as well.   At some point, the rental rates don’t justify higher structures.  Higher buildings are fun to talk about in a sense of “our’s is bigger”, but if the rents are not there, a empty building is not fun to look at either.  “One” was vacant for a while and still has a lot of open space, not counting space for sub-lease.  If they did not give Clemson free space, that project would look a lot worse. The BofA tower will have a lot of empty space when they move.    The worry for this project is timing, it is being proposed at the end of a very long expansion period.  Some hedge funds are shorting the market which is not a great sign.   The county will be on the hook for $120mm +++ regardless of what is built.

[apaladin]

Let's review and plan some more and then we can defer it some more, then let's review it again......yada yada yada. This project is never happening. 

[CLT_sc]

The building height becomes more important in context of the deal.  The developer is not paying  for the property but will receive a percent of land sales as the project is developed.  So, building a 20 story building makes paying more for the land much easier to justify.  As a result, Rocapoint would make more $$$$.  Greenville county is borrowing at least $120mm to pay for infrastructure etc....

[gman430]

They should cancel the entire project, tear down the buildings and plant trees all over the site.  

[cabelagent]

4 hours ago, gman430 said:

They should cancel the entire project, tear down the buildings and plant trees all over the site.  

Consideration for planting trees should be exclusively planned for the Gateway (auditorium) site.  

[cabelagent]

6 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

The math on a 20 story building has to work as well.   At some point, the rental rates don’t justify higher structures.  Higher buildings are fun to talk about in a sense of “our’s is bigger”, but if the rents are not there, a empty building is not fun to look at either.  “One” was vacant for a while and still has a lot of open space, not counting space for sub-lease.  If they did not give Clemson free space, that project would look a lot worse. The BofA tower will have a lot of empty space when they move.    The worry for this project is timing, it is being proposed at the end of a very long expansion period.  Some hedge funds are shorting the market which is not a great sign.   The county will be on the hook for $120mm +++ regardless of what is built.

"The worry for this project is timing, it is being proposed at the end of a very long expansion period."...,how & when was it decided the expansion period is at an end??

You always convey puzzling & negative assumptions and speculations about developments in Greenville...attempting to appear that you know something important & we have no idea. 

 

[CLT_sc]

34 minutes ago, cabelagent said:

"The worry for this project is timing, it is being proposed at the end of a very long expansion period."...,how & when was it decided the expansion period is at an end??

You always convey puzzling & negative assumptions and speculations about developments in Greenville...attempting to appear that you know something important & we have no idea. 

 

Look at economic history, we have been expanding for 8-9 years which is long for an expansion.  And, BTW, I feel the same about CLT.  We have an endless supply of tower cranes in the air today building almost 100% leased new towers.  Lowe’s, Honeywell, Lending Tree, BofA, Ally, Duke,  Deloitte and a few others are building towers ranging from 11 to 40+++, most of which were planned for years and have large anchor tenants.    How much longer will it last, good question, especially in an election year.   But, ..based on history, some shorting in the market, growing deficits, and predictions of lower rates of growth in 2020 would make me nervous about starting a big project without major out of market tenants.  

[btoy]

16 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

The building height becomes more important in context of the deal.  The developer is not paying  for the property but will receive a percent of land sales as the project is developed.  So, building a 20 story building makes paying more for the land much easier to justify.  As a result, Rocapoint would make more $$$$.  Greenville county is borrowing at least $120mm to pay for infrastructure etc....

Also most of the buildings will not be developed by Roca Point, they will develop the site and then sell the pads over the coming years.  The 20 story sections are "up to 20 stories" which means the developer that actually builds on that portion might decide to do something shorter than that.

[apaladin]

16 hours ago, gman430 said:

They should cancel the entire project, tear down the buildings and plant trees all over the site.  

It would take at least 3 years to plan and review. What kind of trees? How tall? How many? etc 

Edited November 24, 2019 by apaladin

[apaladin]

9 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

Look at economic history, we have been expanding for 8-9 years which is long for an expansion.  And, BTW, I feel the same about CLT.  We have an endless supply of tower cranes in the air today building almost 100% leased new towers.  Lowe’s, Honeywell, Lending Tree, BofA, Ally, Duke,  Deloitte and a few others are building towers ranging from 11 to 40+++, most of which were planned for years and have large anchor tenants.    How much longer will it last, good question, especially in an election year.   But, ..based on history, some shorting in the market, growing deficits, and predictions of lower rates of growth in 2020 would make me nervous about starting a big project without major out of market tenants.  

Good points. As we get into next year and Trump leaves office one way or another, sooner or later the economy will go south, interest rates will rise,taxes will increase etc investing and developments will come to a halt.  

[vicupstate]

We may very well be in a recession next year, but that would actually be a good thing for this project.  The County/RocaPoint would get lower bids on the infrastructure and County building and by the time all of that is completed, the recovery would be underway. 

BOA is Class B space which is not the same market as the newest, nicest Class A space.     By the time any new building would be completed in County square the space in BOA would already be absorbed.   

 

[CLT_sc]

4 hours ago, vicupstate said:

We may very well be in a recession next year, but that would actually be a good thing for this project.  The County/RocaPoint would get lower bids on the infrastructure and County building and by the time all of that is completed, the recovery would be underway. 

BOA is Class B space which is not the same market as the newest, nicest Class A space.     By the time any new building would be completed in County square the space in BOA would already be absorbed.   

 

An economic slowdown will make construction prices more competitive.  

BofA is B space, but to date, there is not a lot of new players looking for space in Greenville.  New projects have simply robbed in market tenants.  Projects like this always make one ask why the state of SC does not recruit more office projects.  Between this project, the Bull St development and now the Panthers’ site in Rock Hill, there are options in SC to show prospects.  

[distortedlogic]

16 hours ago, cabelagent said:

 

You always convey puzzling & negative assumptions and speculations about developments in Greenville...attempting to appear that you know something important & we have no idea. 

 

Par for the course my friend. 

[distortedlogic]

4 hours ago, vicupstate said:

We may very well be in a recession next year, but that would actually be a good thing for this project.  The County/RocaPoint would get lower bids on the infrastructure and County building and by the time all of that is completed, the recovery would be underway. 

BOA is Class B space which is not the same market as the newest, nicest Class A space.     By the time any new building would be completed in County square the space in BOA would already be absorbed.   

 

Agreed. Despite some dire warnings from some, Greenville has absorbed office space quite well. Some panicked after Carolina First/South Financial was bought out, others after Certus went bankrupt. Despite these sizeable losses, absorption has been just fine; even considering all the new construction.  County square is a multi-year build out and new office space should come gradually enough to keep Greenville out of an office market collapse.