Greenville County Square redevelopment

[gman430]

30 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

Anything under construction now will already be leased up by the time the first building at County Square is finished.  

But what about the vacant space that arises from companies relocating like BofA and Elliott Davis? 

[gvegascple]

8 minutes ago, gman430 said:

But what about the vacant space that arises from companies relocating like BofA and Elliott Davis? 

and vacancies resulting from the Windstream bankruptcy and new company direction into software development will also add to this.

[vicupstate]

It should be taken by 2024, don't you think?

Besides that is Class B vs. Class A.

[gvegascple]

9 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

It should be taken by 2024, don't you think?

Besides that is Class B vs. Class A.

If vacancies are on the rise, and more existing space is about to be dumped into that pool of vacancies, and new construction is about about add even more into that pool.... how is adding more new construction in 4 years not going to do anything but add even more vacancies?

[GvilleSC]

14 hours ago, gvegascple said:

If vacancies are on the rise, and more existing space is about to be dumped into that pool of vacancies, and new construction is about about add even more into that pool.... how is adding more new construction in 4 years not going to do anything but add even more vacancies?

The site will be built out for how the market demands it AT THE TIME. Maybe it will take 25 years instead of 10? Maybe everything will be in the 4-8 story range? Maybe it’s more residential and hotel construction rather than office space? Or maybe everything gets maximized because the market sees the need for it? We really can’t say, but that’s why there is a plan and some guidelines in place. 

[gvegascple]

2 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

The site will be built out for how the market demands it AT THE TIME. Maybe it will take 25 years instead of 10? Maybe everything will be in the 4-8 story range? Maybe it’s more residential and hotel construction rather than office space? Or maybe everything gets maximized because the market sees the need for it? We really can’t say, but that’s why there is a plan and some guidelines in place. 

The site will be built out as planned and designed, when it is planned and designed, which is now if it goes through.  I totally agree about the guidelines, which will steer any plan changes or modification requests.   I hope I am not coming off as too grumpy, this weather, yech.

Edited December 13, 2019 by gvegascple

[NewlyUpstate]

26 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

The site will be built out as planned and designed, when it is planned and designed, which is now if it goes through.  I totally agree about the guidelines, which will steer any plan changes or modification requests.   I hope I am not coming off as too grumpy, this weather, yech.

The site really isn't planned out, these are tentative plans that the developer believes are realistic.

What's being voted on is zoning, not the plan. Any images and plans shown exist only to help the public imagine how the zoning would work.

[gvegascple]

4 minutes ago, NewlyUpstate said:

The site really isn't planned out, these are tentative plans that the developer believes are realistic.

What's being voted on is zoning, not the plan. Any images and plans shown exist only to help the public imagine how the zoning would work.

I thought the whole thing was being sold around that apple-like hq building for the county?  I lose interest as soon as someone tells me that is just a  nice to have one-of-many-possible-things visual to help me imagine what could or couldnt be.  

[NewlyUpstate]

5 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

I thought the whole thing was being sold around that apple-like hq building for the county?  I lose interest as soon as someone tells me that is just a  nice to have one-of-many-possible-things visual to help me imagine what could or couldnt be.  

The new county building isn't a sticking point as its only 5 stories. The sticking point is the height limitation on the rest of the site and if a couple zones will allow for a potential 20 story building. The zoning limitations on the site help set the price for what the county will sell the site for.  More restrictions = less profits from property sale for the county.

Just because there are areas within the site that will allow for a 20 story building, the developer would not build a 20 story building if there isn't a demand for the office space, so this talk about how much office space is available in Greenville is pretty pointless.  It'll only be built if its profitable for the developer.

 

[gvegascple]

14 minutes ago, NewlyUpstate said:

The new county building isn't a sticking point as its only 5 stories. The sticking point is the height limitation on the rest of the site and if a couple zones will allow for a potential 20 story building. The zoning limitations on the site help set the price for what the county will sell the site for.  More restrictions = less profits from property sale for the county.

Just because there are areas within the site that will allow for a 20 story building, the developer would not build a 20 story building if there isn't a demand for the office space, so this talk about how much office space is available in Greenville is pretty pointless.  It'll only be built if its profitable for the developer.

 

Thanks, that clarifies it for me.  The "it will only be built if its profitable for the developer" line I dont like.  I would rather it will only be built if it fits within what is in the best interest for Greenville and is profitable for those involved.   Developers driven by profit only is not how I want things planned.  I am glad some thought is being put into establishing some guard rails on this and I agree that it is a bit moot because the odds of the location supporting a 20 story building during its build out do seem astronomically low.  Still, I dont want that ultimate decision to be solely the developers if it is not in the best interest of GVL.

Edited December 13, 2019 by gvegascple

[vicupstate]

No one can or would commit to the project looking EXACTLY like anything, except the County office building.  The zoning is the boundaries within which any and all buildings will be done. 

[gvegascple]

24 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

No one can or would commit to the project looking EXACTLY like anything, except the County office building.  The zoning is the boundaries within which any and all buildings will be done. 

so in a circular way we are back to the county office building will be built fairly close to as depicted and is not just a vision of how things can be, and the rest is bound by zoning which is being worked out with the interest of Greenville in mind, which may not include 20 story buildings over there.   I dont see the big deal with saying no 20 story buildings.  If the developer wont be building it anyway because odds are the market wont support that, why all the fuss?

[vicupstate]

The developer's first instincts are to oppose anything that limits their options. They have already agreed to many limitations on height but want to have the flexibility to go higher in some areas since they are agreeing to other restrictions. 

Personally, what is the difference between 12 and 20 stories? 

If Fluor decided to move there, they might very well want more than 12 stories. Why limit the option? 

   

 

[distortedlogic]

37 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

so in a circular way we are back to the county office building will be built fairly close to as depicted and is not just a vision of how things can be, and the rest is bound by zoning which is being worked out with the interest of Greenville in mind, which may not include 20 story buildings over there.   I dont see the big deal with saying no 20 story buildings.  If the developer wont be building it anyway because odds are the market wont support that, why all the fuss?

Here's how I see it; the zoning is for allowing potential.  The developers (and city I guess) want to be able to have the potential to build as high as 20 stories in one area, as high as 8-12 in another, and so on. That, in no way, means that will happen.  They're asking for the potential and the market will determine what is needed as the build out progresses.  

As for the likliehood of building a 20 story building, I don't see any reason it couldn't be done. We may be having some office market changes right now, but that is always happening in a gowing and changing downtown and Greenville was able to absorb the collapses of South Financial and Certus pretty well after a few years. There are too many variables to say it can't. What if a developer decides to remake some older space (such as the BBT building is doing now (ahem... Windstream/Landmark/Daniel building please)). A lot of old class B space could be taken off the market and that reshuffles things and creates a greater demand. Besides, who says it would have to be office. We have several app/condo developments that could have easily been 20 stories of the developers had desinged them that way; they've mostly just chosen to go with more horizontal suburban designs. As I've said before, I think the argument is way too shortsighted anyway. A 12 story building vs a 20 story building is not a big deal from a neighborhood persepctive that sits multiple blocks away; they're not trying to put 600 ft towers here.

Edited December 13, 2019 by distortedlogic

[gvegascple]

18 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

Here's how I see it; the zoning is for allowing potential.  The developers (and city I guess) want to be able to have the potential to build as high as 20 stories in one area, as high as 8-12 in another, and so on. That, in no way, means that will happen.  They're asking for the potential and the market will determine what is needed as the build out progresses.  

As for the likliehood of building a 20 story building, I don't see any reason it couldn't be done. We may be having some office market changes right now, but that is always happenng in a gowing and changing downtown and Greenville was able to absorb the collapses of South Financial and Certus pretty well after a few years. There are too many variables to say it can't. What if a developer decides to remake some older space (such as the BBT building is doing now (ahem... Windstream/Landmark/Daniel building please)). A lot of old class B space could be taken off the market and that reshuffles things and creates a greater demand. Besides, who says it would have to be office. We have several app/condo developments that could have easily been 20 stories of the developers had desinged them that way; they've mostly just chosen to go with more horizontal suburban designs. As I've said before, I think the argument is way too shortsighted anyway. A 12 story building vs a 20 story building is not a big deal from a neighborhood persepctive that sits multiple blocks away; they're not trying to put 600 ft towers here.

I dont know, 12 seems reasonable  to me,  20 seems out of scale for that spot.  Lets focus the 20's and up closer to the CBD in our downtown core and get a 30 story downtown instead.  Developers are going to make plenty off the site.  Seems silly to hold the site hostage so the developer can build as tall as they want on a spot outside of our urban core.  I do think something 20 stories there will impact residential too.  I really dont think there is anything unreasonable about not going 20 stories over there.  This developer is going to sell the location in a few years anyway (maybe this is the point, if they get it zoned for higher buildings when they sell they will get more, they probably dont care at all about actually building 20 stories, they are thinking about cashing out already).  Cant zoning be looked at again should conditions change in 10 or 20 years?  We aren't Charlotte yet, no need to build like we are.

Edited December 13, 2019 by gvegascple

[apaladin]

21 hours ago, vicupstate said:

Anything under construction now will already be leased up by the time the first building at County Square is finished.  

Correct, because we have at least 10 years to fill them up. 

[vicupstate]

10 minutes ago, apaladin said:

Correct, because we have at least 10 years to fill them up. 

The only thing under construction NOW, is already almost completely leased , so  we actually don't need even 1 year.

The houses in Haynie-sirrine are not going to be across the street from the 20 story building. To the extent they will be impacted it will be POSITIVE, not NEGATIVE.

[distortedlogic]

40 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

I dont know, 12 seems reasonable  to me,  20 seems out of scale for that spot.  Lets focus the 20's and up closer to the CBD in our downtown core and get a 30 story downtown instead.  Developers are going to make plenty off the site.  Seems silly to hold the site hostage so the developer can build as tall as they want on a spot outside of our urban core.  I do think something 20 stories there will impact residential too.  I really dont think there is anything unreasonable about not going 20 stories over there.  This developer is going to sell the location in a few years anyway (maybe this is the point, if they get it zoned for higher buildings when they sell they will get more, they probably dont care at all about actually building 20 stories, they are thinking about cashing out already).  Cant zoning be looked at again should conditions change in 10 or 20 years?  We aren't Charlotte yet, no need to build like we are.

We'll have to agree to disagree on most of that because I see it completely differently. That's what we're here for though; to discuss different ideas and opinions! 

"We aren't Charlotte yet, no need to build like we are."  - Agreed but this wouldn't fit that description. Noone is talking about putting the BOA headquarters on that site; THAT would be out of place! But, at some point, we're going to have to go just a little taller than 8-12 stories for everything in our downtown. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by distortedlogic

[motonenterprises]

12 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on most of that because I see it completely differently. That's what we're here for though; to discuss different ideas and opinions! 

"We aren't Charlotte yet, no need to build like we are."  - Agreed but this wouldn't fit that description. Noone is talking about putting the BOA headquarters on that site; THAT would be out of place! But, at some point, we're going to have to go just a little taller than 8-12 stories for everything in our downtown. 

Exactly.

[gman430]

None of this matters. The county and city are probably both going to vote no next month. The county is going to vote no because they don’t think the city will give them the 20 story height limit. Unfortunately, they are right. The city won’t give them the 20 story height limit due to pissing off too many downtown area residents. The county will also probably vote to remove funding from the museum and conference center. Gotta kill two birds with one stone. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by gman430

[gvegascple]

1 hour ago, distortedlogic said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on most of that because I see it completely differently. That's what we're here for though; to discuss different ideas and opinions! 

"We aren't Charlotte yet, no need to build like we are."  - Agreed but this wouldn't fit that description. Noone is talking about putting the BOA headquarters on that site; THAT would be out of place! But, at some point, we're going to have to go just a little taller than 8-12 stories for everything in our downtown. 

I actually want higher than 12 downtown, I even said lets go for 30.  But in the downtown core, not here.  Wouldnt putting a 20 story building here essentially be putting the BOA headquarters on the site? What you are saying seems to conflict with what you are suggesting.  Lets put the tall ones in our urban core, leave this site to 12, seems more than reasonable.  only one benefiting going to 20 on this site is the developer, lets think about whats best for greenville instead.

[btoy]

2 hours ago, gvegascple said:

I dont know, 12 seems reasonable  to me,  20 seems out of scale for that spot.  Lets focus the 20's and up closer to the CBD in our downtown core and get a 30 story downtown instead.  Developers are going to make plenty off the site.  Seems silly to hold the site hostage so the developer can build as tall as they want on a spot outside of our urban core.  I do think something 20 stories there will impact residential too.  I really dont think there is anything unreasonable about not going 20 stories over there.  This developer is going to sell the location in a few years anyway (maybe this is the point, if they get it zoned for higher buildings when they sell they will get more, they probably dont care at all about actually building 20 stories, they are thinking about cashing out already).  Cant zoning be looked at again should conditions change in 10 or 20 years?  We aren't Charlotte yet, no need to build like we are.

That's the thing though, this isn't outside the urban core any long.  If you look at the downtown master plans this is very much part of the core.

[gvegascple]

1 minute ago, btoy said:

That's the thing though, this isn't outside the urban core any long.  If you look at the downtown master plans this is very much part of the core.

its just not time.  there are better locations for 20 and 20 plus buildings.  if the only one benefiting is the developer, why is everyone so interested in doing this, is it just because the mention of height gets everyone excited? they arent going to build that high there, they just want to be able to sell it for more.  

[gman430]

10 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

I actually want higher than 12 downtown, I even said lets go for 30.  But in the downtown core, not here.  Wouldnt putting a 20 story building here essentially be putting the BOA headquarters on the site? What you are saying seems to conflict with what you are suggesting.  Lets put the tall ones in our urban core, leave this site to 12, seems more than reasonable.  only one benefiting going to 20 on this site is the developer, lets think about whats best for greenville instead.

The only issue I have with this is that the developer and county claim they need the 20 story buildings on site to make a profit and not raise taxes to pay for the new county building along with the office space on Halton Road. I’m not sure how accurate that claim is but if it’s true then the city needs to allow the 20 story buildings otherwise everybody’s taxes might go up. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by gman430

[gvegascple]

35 minutes ago, gman430 said:

The only issue I have with this is that the developer and county claim they need the 20 story buildings on site to make a profit and not raise taxes to pay for the new county building along with the office space on Halton Road. I’m not sure how accurate that claim is but if it’s true then the city needs to allow the 20 story buildings otherwise everybody’s taxes might go up. 

so when they dont build a 20 story building here, because they wont, the economy wont support it, will we still get stuck with higher taxes?  This just seems like a scam to me.