Greenville County Square redevelopment

[Den2Gvl]

43 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

They can go in with getting input on 20 story buildings, then scale back to 12-15 and start taking about locations and setbacks to minimize impact to residents.  They can then walk out with decent heights to give the county more value to their parcels and also have the residents walking away feeling heard.  I see this going forward with 12 story caps with options to revisit zoning later.  This is going to be one of the most exciting projects for the next 5-10 years.  Greenville is really knocking things out of the park lately between the One project, the Camperdown, Unity Park, The County Square development, and hopefully the downtown convention center next.   Perhaps we will see something at the old NuVox site on the radar after that and some of the other great concepts seen on the next decade thread.

What/where is the NuVox site? 

 

7 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

Speaking of future sites that will be exciting to watch: I would include redevelopment of the bus station on that list. 

Isn't that property up for sale this year?  I thought I read something about this property being for sale... I could be wrong though. 

[GvilleSC]

2 minutes ago, Den2Gvl said:

What/where is the NuVox site? 

I believe they're talking about what is now ChartSpan (Main/Washington)?

[gman430]

4 minutes ago, Den2Gvl said:

What/where is the NuVox site? 

 

Isn't that property up for sale this year?  I thought I read something about this property being for sale... I could be wrong though. 

Two North Main where Chartspan is and yes the bus station site is for sale. 

[gvegascple]

5 minutes ago, Den2Gvl said:

What/where is the NuVox site? 

Directly across from the One Project, at the corner of Washington and Main, I think Chartspan is there now.  I remember seeing some cool concept drawings of an all glass building that was maybe shifted on an angle but I cant find them online at the moment.

[gman430]

1 minute ago, gvegascple said:

Directly across from the One Project, at the corner of Washington and Main, I think Chartspan is there now.  I remember seeing some cool concept drawings of an all glass building that was maybe shifted on an angle but I cant find them online at the moment.

http://romeoffice.us/#/eloise/

[gvegascple]

2 minutes ago, gman430 said:

http://romeoffice.us/#/eloise/

Thats it!  Thats the kind of architecture I want more of.   Thanks Gman.  

Edited January 9, 2020 by gvegascple

[gvegascple]

If the city and county come to an agreement, any ideas on time frame for moving the offices, demolition, breaking ground and estimated completion?  I cant wait to see this project take shape

[gvegascple]

From the Greenville Journal article

 

"A movie theater, organic grocery store, three-story fitness facility, and national co-working space, totaling as much as 3.5 million square feet with additional hotel, retail, office, and residential use, are part of the updated County Square development plans."

I haven't seen this level of detail before.  Is there a more detailed layout/site plan with this information in it?  Is this the theater originally located at the Camperdown?  I really wanted that theater downtown instead, rats.  That would have been a great downtown experience, dinner and a movie, all walk able from each other with window shopping, and checking out the parks.  I suppose the price per sq ft at the Camperdown makes a movie theater kind of hard with the kind of space requirements for showing films.  Is the organic grocery Trader Joess? or the Publix Organic grocery? Three story fitness??   so many questions now... :-)  

[gman430]

28 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

From the Greenville Journal article

 

"A movie theater, organic grocery store, three-story fitness facility, and national co-working space, totaling as much as 3.5 million square feet with additional hotel, retail, office, and residential use, are part of the updated County Square development plans."

I haven't seen this level of detail before.  Is there a more detailed layout/site plan with this information in it?  Is this the theater originally located at the Camperdown?  I really wanted that theater downtown instead, rats.  That would have been a great downtown experience, dinner and a movie, all walk able from each other with window shopping, and checking out the parks.  I suppose the price per sq ft at the Camperdown makes a movie theater kind of hard with the kind of space requirements for showing films.  Is the organic grocery Trader Joess? or the Publix Organic grocery? Three story fitness??   so many questions now... :-)  

These amenities have been in the plan for a while now. This site and proposed theater are downtown. Lol. Sure it’s not right on Main Street but that’s a good thing in my opinion as it spreads the foot traffic out around downtown instead of it just being focused on one street.

The pdf file from the planning commission agenda a few months ago has all of this info on it. 

There still might be a movie theater in the works for Camperdown. Not sure though. 

I’m really hoping for a Wegman’s as the grocery store tenant. 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by gman430

[gvegascple]

56 minutes ago, gman430 said:

 This site and proposed theater are downtown. Lol. Sure it’s not right on Main Street but that’s a good thing in my opinion as it spreads the foot traffic out around downtown instead of it just being focused on one street.

 

Thanks for the info, I must have missed that pdf with the grocery store, theater and fitness center on it, will dig around.  As far as being "downtown" yes I agree with you technically, but It would be at least a half mile walk, probably 3/4 to a full mile or farther depending on what part of downtown you are at.  Is it walkable? yes.  would many people do it? no.   Generally, a block to a quarter mile is what most people think of as walkable especially if you have kids, elderly or people with you not used to walking a lot.   You have to walk around the governors school to get to it from downtown and up a little hill as well.  I would do it but it is isolated from downtown pedestrians as a result.  Most people are going to get int their cars and drive here IMHO and as a result even though its right next to downtown it will still be a bit of an "island" once you get out of your car.  Oh and There is a Wegmans near one of my relatives, great store but pretty big (and expensive).  My guess is Publix Greenwise or TJ's since its labelled "neighborhood grocery". 

Found the site plan you mentioned, thanks again! 

Edited January 10, 2020 by gvegascple

[vicupstate]

Just in case you thought that height is only an issue in Greenville....

8 Story apartment complex near USC campus turned down

[johnpro318]

3 hours ago, gvegascple said:

Thanks for the info, I must have missed that pdf with the grocery store, theater and fitness center on it, will dig around.  As far as being "downtown" yes I agree with you technically, but It would be at least a half mile walk, probably 3/4 to a full mile or farther depending on what part of downtown you are at.  Is it walkable? yes.  would many people do it? no.   Generally, a block to a quarter mile is what most people think of as walkable especially if you have kids, elderly or people with you not used to walking a lot.   You have to walk around the governors school to get to it from downtown and up a little hill as well.  I would do it but it is isolated from downtown pedestrians as a result.  Most people are going to get int their cars and drive here IMHO and as a result even though its right next to downtown it will still be a bit of an "island" once you get out of your car.  Oh and There is a Wegmans near one of my relatives, great store but pretty big (and expensive).  My guess is Publix Greenwise or TJ's since its labelled "neighborhood grocery". 

Found the site plan you mentioned, thanks again! 

I disagree about people mostly driving here from Main Street. We currently park here and walk up and down Main. I dont see why there wouldn't be a time when we would drive to Main and walk here. It's just a mental block that its separate from downtown but it really isn't. Especially if the lots along University St are developed. That street is the key to this feeling walkable from the main strip. 

[SVL]

19 minutes ago, johnpro318 said:

I disagree about people mostly driving here from Main Street. We currently park here and walk up and down Main. I dont see why there wouldn't be a time when we would drive to Main and walk here. It's just a mental block that its separate from downtown but it really isn't. Especially if the lots along University St are developed. That street is the key to this feeling walkable from the main strip. 

I agree, this is my go to parking spot as well. It's a lot closer to Main and everything else than it appears. This project will make it feel connected even more. Part of the appeal of downtown is the walkability so I welcome more spaces and connections.

[gvegascple]

59 minutes ago, johnpro318 said:

I disagree about people mostly driving here from Main Street. We currently park here and walk up and down Main. I dont see why there wouldn't be a time when we would drive to Main and walk here. It's just a mental block that its separate from downtown but it really isn't. Especially if the lots along University St are developed. That street is the key to this feeling walkable from the main strip. 

With the governors school as a natural boundary, it creates only two access points to downtown, one at the end of Howe st and the other way on the other side at Church St.   If you walk from there towards the stadium, yes, its a walkable .25 miles.  It really depends on what you mean by main st and how close to one of these entrances to county square you are near.   You could easily end up walking a mile or farther from county square to where One plaza is and farther up to the Hyatt.  For you that is great if you can handle it, I can too, but most people are going to either get in their cars or visit each area distinctively.   A lot of people are still upset they cant get a spot on main in front of Mast when they want to shop there and would rather circle a hundred times than go a block and pull into a parking garage.  As downtown grows the distinct zones will become more evident.  County Square will be one, The West End, the East Side, The Central Business District, etc will be the others.    Within each of these zones people will walk about a quarter mile.  Sure people will walk all of them sometimes, but I see it more likely that people will target one of these zones and stick within them as density increases.  When you go to Whole Foods, do you walk across woodruff to go to Barnes and Noble or get in your car?  You may hit both areas, but its done distinctively, one or the other or one after the other.  Heck, when I am at World Market and want to go to Best Buy next, I get in my car and so does most everyone else.  This is all I am saying.  Downtown is no different than any other place.  If you are there for a nice walk, yes you will walk a lot.  If you are there to shop, go to a movie, get dinner and a movie, you are going to walk about .25 miles tops.  Because of the governors school (and having to walk across water via bridges), this zone has the risk of feeling the most isolated from downtown despite its proximity.  Another reason it may seem weird to have a 20 story building here.  

Edited January 10, 2020 by gvegascple

[GvilleSC]

20 minutes ago, SVL said:

I agree, this is my go to parking spot as well. It's a lot closer to Main and everything else than it appears. This project will make it feel connected even more. Part of the appeal of downtown is the walkability so I welcome more spaces and connections.

Yes-- the connections to Augusta Street and Falls Park are going to be extremely important to breaking that mental block for some folks. The City will need to get those right for sure.

I think it's also true that you will visit sections of downtown at a time. If you're going to a movie, you'll probably visit a restaurant that opens on this site, or in the West End. And, if you're going to see the Christmas Trees at the Hyatt or to Heritage Green, you'll probably choose a restaurant in the northern end of the CBD.

We'll also have the trolley running, which may very well increase in frequency and ridership as more destinations further afield are established. Right now there's rather limited places you can/want to go. Maybe this will be the justification we need to seriously consider a streetcar line? Who knows, but I like the possibilities! 

[distortedlogic]

1 hour ago, johnpro318 said:

I disagree about people mostly driving here from Main Street. We currently park here and walk up and down Main. I dont see why there wouldn't be a time when we would drive to Main and walk here. It's just a mental block that its separate from downtown but it really isn't. Especially if the lots along University St are developed. That street is the key to this feeling walkable from the main strip. 

This...

45 minutes ago, SVL said:

I agree, this is my go to parking spot as well. It's a lot closer to Main and everything else than it appears. This project will make it feel connected even more. Part of the appeal of downtown is the walkability so I welcome more spaces and connections.

... and this.

43 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

With the governors school as a natural boundary, it creates only two access points to downtown, one at the end of Howe st and the other way on the other side at Church St.   If you walk from there towards the stadium, yes, its a walkable .25 miles.  It really depends on what you mean by main st and how close to one of these entrances to county square you are near.   You could easily end up walking a mile or farther from county square to where One plaza is and farther up to the Hyatt.  For you that is great if you can handle it, I can too, but most people are going to either get in their cars or visit each area distinctively.   A lot of people are still upset they cant get a spot on main in front of Mast when they want to shop there and would rather circle a hundred times than go a block and pull into a parking garage.  As downtown grows the distinct zones will become more evident.  County Square will be one, The West End, the East Side, The Central Business District, etc will be the others.    Within each of these zones people will walk about a quarter mile.  Sure people will walk all of them sometimes, but I see it more likely that people will target one of these zones and stick within them as density increases.  When you go to Whole Foods, do you walk across woodruff to go to Barnes and Noble or get in your car?  You may hit both areas, but its done distinctively, one or the other or one after the other.  Heck, when I am at World Market and want to go to Best Buy next, I get in my car and so does most everyone else.  This is all I am saying.  Downtown is no different than any other place.  If you are there for a nice walk, yes you will walk a lot.  If you are there to shop, go to a movie, get dinner and a movie, you are going to walk about .25 miles tops.  Because of the governors school (and having to walk across water via bridges), this zone has the risk of feeling the most isolated from downtown despite its proximity.  Another reason it may seem weird to have a 20 story building here.  

There's a lot of truth here; a lot of people won't walk around downtown at all; heck a lot of people will get in their cars and drive from one store to another adjacent one at Greenridge. It's just us lazy Americans! On the other hand, there are lots of people who will be willing to walk to county square, and many who do already despite it's currently limited connectability. Many people come to DT because they want to walk, just look at the success of Main St and all the parks.  A quarter mile or half is nothing for most of those people, and many of them walk far longer than that up and down Main (with hills) on a regular basis ( NOMA to the ball field is about 1.5 miles and ball field to Stone is 2 miles). And don't forget about Augusta. The split off S main has a good bit of development and is adding more, and Augusta goes right down the side of the whole county square site. The West end market is a major destination and parking lot for the far end of Falls Park and for the Gov School area with County Square next door. It's actually far more connected than most people think. 

[gvegascple]

50 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

This...

... and this.

There's a lot of truth here; a lot of people won't walk around downtown at all; heck a lot of people will get in their cars and drive from one store to another adjacent one at Greenridge. It's just us lazy Americans! On the other hand, there are lots of people who will be willing to walk to county square, and many who do already despite it's currently limited connectability. Many people come to DT because they want to walk, just look at the success of Main St and all the parks.  A quarter mile or half is nothing for most of those people, and many of them walk far longer than that up and down Main (with hills) on a regular basis ( NOMA to the ball field is about 1.5 miles and ball field to Stone is 2 miles). And don't forget about Augusta. The split off S main has a good bit of development and is adding more, and Augusta goes right down the side of the whole county square site. The West end market is a major destination and parking lot for the far end of Falls Park and for the Gov School area with County Square next door. It's actually far more connected than most people think. 

I dont disagree with any of this.  I think there are two different reasons people are coming downtown, one is for a nice walk and to see the sights and the park.  The other is to shop, see a show, get a bite to eat, or see a game.   Sure there is some intermix between the two as well.  I also dont know if I would call someone who would drive from one side of the Greenridge to the other lazy, either.  If you are there to shop, it saves time.  If you are there for a walk, then walk.  Same applies to downtown.  As more shops and restaurants and theaters open, there will be a lot more of those coming downtown for more than a walk.  County square seems like it will be more of its own destination and less of part of the pretty walking around experience.  I dont see how it is connected to downtown other than at Howe near the stadium, which is over a mile from the other end of main.  Thats a hike right there, if you are here for a hike, that is one thing, but if you are here for dinner and movie and not a hike, you are not going to venture too far out or want walk down to the stadium and around the governors school.  I dont see this spot being as connected as everyone else does unless narrowly defined as connected to the west end by the stadium or connected to a yet to be developed east side of downtown. Otherwise, you have to walk around the governors school and cross a bridge or two.  Its a distinct shopping center way more than it is downtown Greenville IMHO.  Its The shops at wholefood vs the shops at greenridge, super close, but divided by a border that creates a distinct experience between the two.

Edited January 10, 2020 by gvegascple

[johnpro318]

22 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

I dont disagree with any of this.  I think there are two different reasons people are coming downtown, one is for a nice walk and to see the sights and the park.  The other is to shop, see a show, get a bite to eat, or see a game.   Sure there is some intermix between the two as well.  As more shops and restaurants and theaters open, there will be a lot more of those coming downtown for more than a walk.  County square seems like it will be more of its own destination and less of part of the pretty walking around experience.  I dont see how it is connected to downtown other than at Howe near the stadium, which is over a mile from the other end of main.  Thats a hike right there, if you are here for a hike, that is one thing, but if you are here for dinner and movie and not a hike, you are not going to venture too far out or want walk down to the stadium and around the governors school.  I dont see this spot being as connected as everyone else does unless narrowly defined as connected to the west end by the stadium or connected to a yet to be developed east side of downtown. Otherwise, you have to walk around the governors school and cross a bridge or two.  Its a distinct shopping center way more than it is downtown Greenville IMHO.  Its The shops at wholefood vs the shops at greenridge, super close, but divided by a border that creates a distinct experience between the two.

University Street will make this directly connected to Main Street. No bridges or walking around the Governor's School needed. 

We park at County Square and walk to the Stadium, down Swamp Rabbit to where the new Unity Park and up to One Plaza. This, if done correctly, will be no different from the rest of downtown. I feel you might be projecting a bit. This won't be divided by a 6 plus lane high traffic road like Whole Foods and Greenridge are. People go downtown with the notion that they will have to walk to places. People go to Woodruff Road with the notion that they can't walk to places.

[gman430]

Meh...none of this matters. The project won’t get built due to NIMBY’s that act like they’re going to have a heart attack if a 20 story building is constructed near them. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by gman430

[gvegascple]

3 minutes ago, johnpro318 said:

University Street will make this directly connected to Main Street. No bridges or walking around the Governor's School needed. 

We park at County Square and walk to the Stadium, down Swamp Rabbit to where the new Unity Park and up to One Plaza. This, if done correctly, will be no different from the rest of downtown. I feel you might be projecting a bit. This won't be divided by a 6 plus lane high traffic road like Whole Foods and Greenridge are. People go downtown with the notion that they will have to walk to places. People go to Woodruff Road with the notion that they can't walk to places.

If you walk to the stadium and then up main street or go out the Church St side, you are walking around the governors school.  Its a boundary dividing this zone from downtown.  

[gman430]

5 minutes ago, gvegascple said:

If you walk to the stadium and then up main street or go out the Church St side, you are walking around the governors school.  Its a boundary dividing this zone from downtown.  

Build a bridge across the Reedy leading up to Camperdown Way/Grand Bohemian and a pathway down to Furman College Way where the round-a-bout is from the development site.

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by gman430

[gvegascple]

1 hour ago, gman430 said:

Build a bridge across the Reedy leading up to Camperdown Way/Grand Bohemian and a pathway down to Furman College Way where the round-a-bout is from the development site.

 

only if it is over the falls  :-)   

Or accept that it is not that clearly connected to a contiguous downtown and move on.  Accept that it is a little bit farther walk and some would rather drive or visit the rest of downtown another time unless they are specifically there for a walk.  its more of a distinct towncenter right next to downtown.  Its also a weird spot to be dropping in the tallest building in greenville if you ask me, and I dont care because I know even if the zoning was relaxed to allow for it, it wouldnt get built because the land value wont reach the level to justify it before spots in the CBD.  I think the city can do whatever they want in regards to zoning for that reason, and more so to help the county make more money off of it knowing there will never be a 20 story building there no  matter how its zoned.

Edited January 10, 2020 by gvegascple

[johnpro318]

2 hours ago, gvegascple said:

only if it is over the falls  :-)   

Or accept that it is not that clearly connected to a contiguous downtown and move on.  Accept that it is a little bit farther walk and some would rather drive or visit the rest of downtown another time unless they are specifically there for a walk.  its more of a distinct towncenter right next to downtown.  Its also a weird spot to be dropping in the tallest building in greenville if you ask me, and I dont care because I know even if the zoning was relaxed to allow for it, it wouldnt get built because the land value wont reach the level to justify it before spots in the CBD.  I think the city can do whatever they want in regards to zoning for that reason, and more so to help the county make more money off of it knowing there will never be a 20 story building there no  matter how its zoned.

I disagree,  but yes I will move on because I looked at your past posts and I rarely agree with them haha. No harm no foul. 

[gman]

2 hours ago, gman430 said:

Build a bridge across the Reedy leading up to Camperdown Way/Grand Bohemian and a pathway down to Furman College Way where the round-a-bout is from the development site.

 

I vote no on another bridge. What we have is an icon. It’s the only one we need. 

[gvegascple]

On 1/10/2020 at 5:45 PM, johnpro318 said:

I disagree,  but yes I will move on because I looked at your past posts and I rarely agree with them haha. No harm no foul. 

I like that, we will agree to disagree and I am flattered that you dont agree with my posts.  Seems a bit passive aggressive/petty  to feel the need to look up all of my posts and then add that to your response, but to  each their own.  When this site is built out, how its used will be less hypothetical and then we will see.

Edited January 13, 2020 by gvegascple