Greenville County Square redevelopment

[PuppiesandKittens]

1 hour ago, gman said:

That is a terrible name. A suggestion is,  “Sirrine District”, a nod to the history of Sirrine Stadium. Also, at one time, it was mentioned that a replica of the original Bell Tower would be built. The development could be called, “Bell Tower.” 

Sirrine District would be a good choice.

A bell tower replica would be a great idea.

I assume that Bell Tower Mall is pretty much forgotten so the term Bell Tower shouldn’t bring up bad memories.

[NewlyUpstate]

I know when bringing visitors to town I would explain this area as the "new Downtown" similar to how in European and some American cities (particularly in the Northeast... Boston, DC, etc) you see a more historic downtown (main street in our case) as well as a more modern downtown.  I've thought from the beginning that this is what they were trying to do with this area.

Still looks weird to include that naming on official documents, but I can understand trying to sell outsiders on helping build an area that will in the future also be considered downtown, because at the moment it isn't and I could see that turning some developers and corporations away.

I think long-term once this is fully developed, you'll continue to see the use of district naming for the various parts of downtown (West End, North Main/Main Street, etc).

Looking at the latest renderings.. this feels like a condensed  and "square" version of Charlotte's South End, which IMO is weakest in lacking parking and spread along a line so its basically impossible to walk anywhere.

Edited October 27, 2022 by NewlyUpstate

[GvilleSC]

I agree with the sentiments that using the word "downtown" probably holds value for developers and their marketing efforts. I think you could pursue almost any name and use "downtown" as a subtitle of sorts for the time being. "Sirrine District, downtown" / "South End, downtown" / "University Ridge, downtown" / etc.

For what it's worth, the 2019 planning efforts studied this area as "South Downtown". I think going directional would make sense. South Ridge would be geographically correct, but there's an ugly apartment building that has taken that name for the time being. 

 

[distortedlogic]

17 hours ago, gman430 said:

So it looks like the building next to the garage will be apartments. Guess they decided to change it to that from office space due to market conditions. Rendering and height still looks the same though which tells me they decided to make it apartments a while back before even making the renderings. Sorry about the confusion there.

Anyways…

Not impressed with the concept plans, nothing but more lazy boxy architecture. There's nothing in the plans to really make this area standout or make it different from the rest of DT. I like the concept plans for Union Bleachery MUCH better. 

[vistatiger]

12 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

IMO, the name for this needs to be more district-focused branding, allowing it to extend down Church Street and outside the bounds of this property. The City of Greenville should be shepherding such an effort. 

   Heck even UpTown would have made more sense on that ridge.

[gman430]

 

10 hours ago, distortedlogic said:

Not impressed with the concept plans, nothing but more lazy boxy architecture. There's nothing in the plans to really make this area standout or make it different from the rest of DT. I like the concept plans for Union Bleachery MUCH better. 

Sadly, I agree. Can’t forget about Bridgeway Station either which also looks much better architecture wise than this project. The County Square redevelopment could have been something great, but the developers along with all of the NIMBY’s in the area have pretty much ruined it with all of their stupid height limits and what not. Pretty bad when the best looking building out of the entire complex is going to be the new county office building. And don’t get me wrong. The density is nice but I want some height like a 40 story building with a spire on top. Tired of all of these boring boxy eight story midrises going up downtown. Even my drone is tired of it. 

Edited October 28, 2022 by gman430

[PuppiesandKittens]

3 hours ago, gman430 said:

 

Sadly, I agree. Can’t forget about Bridgeway Station either which also looks much better architecture wise than this project. The County Square redevelopment could have been something great, but the developers along with all of the NIMBY’s in the area have pretty much ruined it with all of their stupid height limits and what not. Pretty bad when the best looking building out of the entire complex is going to be the new county office building. And don’t get me wrong. The density is nice but I want some height like a 40 story building with a spire on top. Tired of all of these boring boxy eight story midrises going up downtown. Even my drone is tired of it. 

Agreed and I point a finger at architects and developers, too.

Buildings can be timeless and beautiful.  If people, much poorer than people today are, were able to build gorgeous, timeless buildings in the 1890s, they can today.  And they do; cities such as London have plenty of new construction using timeless architectural styles (there, designed to fit in with existing historic buildings).

Greenville doesn’t have much of that; the “Charlotte 2010 Box Style” prevails.  That’s simply a choice that architects and developers have made.  Hopefully it can all be renovated in 30 years when it all looks dated.

At least we aren’t getting multiple Daniel Buildings, and at least the old Greenville News building on South Main is gone.  Glass half full, I guess.

[GvilleSC]

2 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Agreed and I point a finger at architects and developers, too.

Buildings can be timeless and beautiful.  If people, much poorer than people today are, were able to build gorgeous, timeless buildings in the 1890s, they can today.  And they do; cities such as London have plenty of new construction using timeless architectural styles (there, designed to fit in with existing historic buildings).

Greenville doesn’t have much of that; the “Charlotte 2010 Box Style” prevails.  That’s simply a choice that architects and developers have made.  Hopefully it can all be renovated in 30 years when it all looks dated.

At least we aren’t getting multiple Daniel Buildings, and at least the old Greenville News building on South Main is gone.  Glass half full, I guess.

For your next trip to London, here's a great resource: https://architectourguide.com/blogs/london/8-of-the-ugliest-most-hated-buildings-in-london  

Some of the commentary on here is mind blowing. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

37 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

For your next trip to London, here's a great resource: https://architectourguide.com/blogs/london/8-of-the-ugliest-most-hated-buildings-in-london  

Some of the commentary on here is mind blowing. 

Those buildings are ugly but they’re no worse than the Daniel Building or the law enforcement center.

Try https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Classical_architecture for some illustrations of new buildings today that we could have, but don’t.  Even Charleston has some new gems.

Edited October 28, 2022 by PuppiesandKittens

[GVLover]

I don’t think Greenville DownTown is the final name of this project, and if it is, then RocaPoint/Georgetown should absolutely consider changing it as it’s a terrible name (only Mauldin can truly have a project named DownTown and I’d be fine with it for obvious reasons). If the name were truly “Greenville DownTown”, I’m sure there’d be more branding on the marketing materials as opposed to said materials simply stating “Greenville DownTown Redevelopment Project.”

[distortedlogic]

On 10/28/2022 at 7:56 AM, GvilleSC said:

 

Some of the commentary on here is mind blowing. 

What is mind blowing about it?

Edited October 29, 2022 by distortedlogic

[gman430]

On 10/29/2022 at 12:30 PM, distortedlogic said:

What is mind blowing about it?

Nothing is mind blowing about it. The architecture and height of these buildings suck. Plain and simple. The only one that is even remotely interesting is the apartment building slated to get built next to the parking garage. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by gman430

[ingvegas]

Height doesn't bother me. I like the density. I like the heights will be similar and not too tall (creating congestion).

But, I REALLY like just about every building will have retail on the bottom floor. I really like how all the streets will be tree-lined. I like how there is a grocery store planned. That's how you design a vibrant community. 

Grocery store, drug store, dry-cleaner, gym, and a few restaurants/bars ---- people won't have to leave the neighborhood in a car. 

I think some you nay-sayers will like the finished product. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by ingvegas

[transplant08]

12 minutes ago, ingvegas said:

But, I REALLY like just about every building will have retail on the bottom floor. I really like how all the streets will be tree-lined. I like how there is a grocery store planned. That's how you design a vibrant community. 

Grocery store, drug store, dry-cleaner, gym, and a few restaurants/bars ---- people won't have to leave the neighborhood in a car. 

It's not going to get a grocery store. That's the oldest bait and switch in the book. They said the same thing about Canvas https://upstatebusinessjournal.com/real-estate/developer-turn-bbt-tower-apartments/

[vicupstate]

12 minutes ago, transplant08 said:

It's not going to get a grocery store. That's the oldest bait and switch in the book. They said the same thing about Canvas https://upstatebusinessjournal.com/real-estate/developer-turn-bbt-tower-apartments/

Comparing County Square to Canvas is crazy. Besides, The Beach Company said they did not have sufficient parking for a grocer given the other included uses. The Townhouses should never have been built for that very reason, IMO.

[gman430]

Signs up for public street abandonments including for Thruston so site grading can begin on next phase of project. 

Edited November 1, 2022 by gman430

[PuppiesandKittens]

4 hours ago, vicupstate said:

Comparing County Square to Canvas is crazy. Besides, The Beach Company said they did not have sufficient parking for a grocer given the other included uses. The Townhouses should never have been built for that very reason, IMO.

This site doesn’t need a grocery store.  The downtown Publix is within walking distance and the Harris Teeter on Augusta  is probably also walkable (although this being a city where people don’t walk, people wouldn’t).

[vistatiger]

1 hour ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

This site doesn’t need a grocery store.  The downtown Publix is within walking distance and the Harris Teeter on Augusta  is probably also walkable (although this being a city where people don’t walk, people wouldn’t).

Agree 100%.  Let Publix and the bookend twin HT's  thrive and perform well. Lot's of central business areas would love to have just one of those two grocers. Don't take away business from them with another competitor. All Downtown needs is an empty grocery building like the empty Bi-Lo on North Main.  

Edited November 1, 2022 by vistatiger

[vicupstate]

Trader Joe's would work at County Square and so would a few others.

[gman430]

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Item/10143?fileID=56002

[NewlyUpstate]

Always cool to see a project come together.

Quote

• Retail Commitments? Multitude of brokers, a lot of traction (local & national) want both when leases executed – entertainment – dog park – restaurants – office users - grocers.

Nothing new obviously, but this is probably the most interesting line demonstrating interest from grocers and entertainment. It's interesting that they felt the need to detail dog park as well, which downtown is in great need of.  I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of brands sign on to this project.. this one feels like potential for an avalanche of news and DRB activity at the beginning of the year

[gman430]

Three dog parks are slated to be included within the development. As part of the deal with the city, the multi family buildings don’t have to go before the DRB or PC for approval before getting built. I’m not sure about the office buildings though:

“Requests for Final Development Plan (FDP) approvals, site plan approvals, multi-family project approvals and all subdivision approvals within the HSN-GCS sub-district shall be submitted to the City for review and final approval by the Zoning Administrator. All such plans submitted to the City will be reviewed by the Zoning Administrator for conformance with the HSN-GCS sub-district development standards adopted in this Section 13 of Code. If the Zoning Administrator determine that such plans are in substantial conformance with the HSN-GCS sub-district requirements, the landowner may proceed with development of the property in accordance with such plans without any further review or approval by the Design Review Board, the Planning Commission or any other City entity formed for the purpose of land use regulations. In the event the Zoning Administrator determine that such plans are not in substantial conformance with the HSN-GCS sub-district requirements, the landowner may appeal such decision directly to City Council whereby City Council shall either approve or disapprove the plans submitted by the landowner.”

 

Industries NOT allowed to locate within the development include:

a) Automotive, boat and heavy equipment sales and service
b) Adult establishments and adult video stores
c) Automobile parts store
d) Bail bonding
e) Bodily fluid collection services
f) Fortune tellers
g) Laundry and dry-cleaning plant
h) Loan broker or small loan company
i) Pawn shops, payday lenders, title loan lenders, check cashing establishments, deferred presentment lenders, and establishments that deal
primarily in precious metals
j) Restaurant, with drive-through
k) Self-service storage (all uses)
l) Tattoo parlors
m) Veterinary clinic (outdoor)
n) Wholesale establishment

Edited November 3, 2022 by gman430

[NewlyUpstate]

27 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Three dog parks are slated to be included within the development. As part of the deal with the city, the multi family buildings don’t have to go before the DRB or PC for approval before getting built. I’m not sure about the office buildings though:

“Requests for Final Development Plan (FDP) approvals, site plan approvals, multi-family project approvals and all subdivision approvals within the HSN-GCS sub-district shall be submitted to the City for review and final approval by the Zoning Administrator. All such plans submitted to the City will be reviewed by the Zoning Administrator for conformance with the HSN-GCS sub-district development standards adopted in this Section 13 of Code. If the Zoning Administrator determine that such plans are in substantial conformance with the HSN-GCS sub-district requirements, the landowner may proceed with development of the property in accordance with such plans without any further review or approval by the Design Review Board, the Planning Commission or any other City entity formed for the purpose of land use regulations. In the event the Zoning Administrator determine that such plans are not in substantial conformance with the HSN-GCS sub-district requirements, the landowner may appeal such decision directly to City Council whereby City Council shall either approve or disapprove the plans submitted by the landowner.”

 

Industries NOT allowed to locate within the development include:

a) Automotive, boat and heavy equipment sales and service
b) Adult establishments and adult video stores
c) Automobile parts store
d) Bail bonding
e) Bodily fluid collection services
f) Fortune tellers
g) Laundry and dry-cleaning plant
h) Loan broker or small loan company
i) Pawn shops, payday lenders, title loan lenders, check cashing establishments, deferred presentment lenders, and establishments that deal
primarily in precious metals
j) Restaurant, with drive-through
k) Self-service storage (all uses)
l) Tattoo parlors
m) Veterinary clinic (outdoor)
n) Wholesale establishment

When was that deal made? It's interesting that they have a bypass, as it feels against the foundational reasons why Greenville has been so successful... but it still requires them to conform with all guidelines of the DRB which I feel like I've seen no major project achieve without some guidance.  

 

Also, those 3 "dog parks" I assumed were part of the multi-family projects which are basically a standard amenity nowadays. Different than a public or private stand alone park.

Edited November 3, 2022 by NewlyUpstate

[gman430]

1 hour ago, NewlyUpstate said:

When was that deal made? It's interesting that they have a bypass, as it feels against the foundational reasons why Greenville has been so successful... but it still requires them to conform with all guidelines of the DRB which I feel like I've seen no major project achieve without some guidance.  

 

Also, those 3 "dog parks" I assumed were part of the multi-family projects which are basically a standard amenity nowadays. Different than a public or private stand alone park.

In January 2020 when the city approved the project. You might be right regarding the dog parks. Not sure though. 

[GVLer]

Thank goodness they blocked fortune tellers! Aren’t those also called economists?