NC Civil Rights

[15895]

But "don't like it, leave" is kind of contrary to the goals of most members here and developers and our chambers of commerce, etc. A lot of us want to see Charlotte prosper, not sink because of a chance a lightening bolt might strike.

[tusculan]

3 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

But "don't like it, leave" is kind of contrary to the goals of most members here and developers and our chambers of commerce, etc. A lot of us want to see Charlotte prosper, not sink because of a chance a lightening bolt might strike.

True enough...this site is one that leans in being classically liberal....almost all business is good business, and the more people the better. And there are certain ideals that I share with that mindset. But the notion that accommodations must be made for preferences, whether you're a Klan member or Muslim, I think are dangerous and are ultimately divisive of people. True prosperity comes not with accounting for all of our whims, but providing laws which allow for us, with a variety of backgrounds and ideas to live together.

To give you an idea of preferences becoming dangerous and morphing into rights. I was in Bordeaux, France last year and a Muslim butcher had taken to only serving men on Sunday, Tuesday, Thursday and only serving women on Mondays and Wednesdays. He cited that it was his patrons preference that men and women not intermingle together, thus no women were going to be allowed certain days and no men on others. 

Here, people's preference, whether I agree with it or not, was used as the basis for segregation.

There is no doubt that these are challenging issues in a global society. How to respect and welcome all people, and yet do so that still understands the US, and Charlotte in particular as offering something unique. I think that a city doesn't need to divorce it's ideas, ideas that have made it great, from who it is. I think I want businesses to be free to decline certain services to patrons....though not denying the patrons themselves. I think its ok to say I am not going to serve that guy who is yelling at his wife, because this restaurant doesn't tolerate spousal abuse, etc.

[15895]

slippery slope arguments. Lol.

 

If companies can fire someone for being gay, then why not be allowed to fire someone for being black? 

 

if we let people vote on whether homosexuals should have protections against discrimination, shouldn't we be allowed to vote on whether African Americans have protections from discrimination?

 

I hate slippery slower arguments. The courts didn't seem to care for slippery slope arguments against same sex marriage neither. Something about if 2 men can marry, then it will lead to people marrying their pet Frog that happens to be their underage daughter. (Which, im disappointed no one has married a frog yet  )

 

[tusculan]

5 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

slippery slope arguments. Lol.

 

If companies can fire someone for being gay, then why not be allowed to fire someone for being black? 

 

if we let people vote on whether homosexuals should have protections against discrimination, shouldn't we be allowed to vote on whether African Americans have protections from discrimination?

 

I hate slippery slower arguments. The courts didn't seem to care for slippery slope arguments against same sex marriage neither. Something about if 2 men can marry, then it will lead to people marrying their pet Frog that happens to be their underage daughter. (Which, im disappointed no one has married a frog yet  )

 

I never said anything about gay people....or black people? Clearly discrimination against classes of people, such that you make them do something extra to attain to their rights is against the 14th amendment. ...and more importantly, is fundamentally immoral. Nor did I say anything about same-sex marriage, so I fail to see how the majority of your claim is relevant.

Its pretty clear that my argument was not trying to be a slippery slope one, though I guess it could be seen as such. I was not saying that we will end up like this. What I was indicating is simply that if preferences for behavior are allowed to be accommodated then there doesn't appear to be a coherent reason behind drawing the line at other behavior. Yes, like Kermit, you could say what costs money...but I argued that this is a dumb argument.  So let me punt this back to you....along what lines do we say that businesses or the government must accommodate the desires, but not the needs, of people? What is the coherent rationale as to why we should let people choose which restroom, but we should not accommodate the desired preferences of other people who are upset about a host of things....that we say in God we trust on our coins....that we have Christmas as a holiday....that we require people to be searched before getting on an airplane?

Its very clear that race, and given the rationale behind the supreme court decision last year that homosexuality is a protected group of people, who have the right to do whatever anyone else does. So transgender people currently have same rights as everyone else. No one is denying them service, or denying them medical care, or denying them marriages. They simply are being told that they cannot request to use any bathroom they please....just like everyone else. Honestly, I could actually see this being a problem in the long run...why do transgender people get to choose which bathrooms they want, but non-transgender people don't....if access to a bathroom of preference is a right, then why doesn't everyone have that right?

 

 

[grodney]

RaleighHellsFan, since you're concerned about your daughter's safety, how do you keep track of which private businesses allow transgenders to use the bathroom of their liking?  Target, for instance, has allowed this, and last week they publicly re-affirmed that stance.  So do you avoid Target?  Did you avoid them before they re-affirmed their stance? And how do you keep track of the policy for all the other businesses where your daughter might use the restroom?  How do you know which ones are "safe"?  Genuinely interested in your answers since you have cited safety of your daughter as a reason for HB2, yet McCrory (and his PR people) keep re-stating that private businesses are free to enact whatever policies they want.

 

[QCxpat]

From The New York Times, Sunday, April 24, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/opinion/sunday/tempest-in-a-toilet.html

SundayReview | OP-ED COLUMNIST

Tempest in a Toilet

Frank Bruni APRIL 23, 2016

 

Photo Credit Ben Wiseman

 

OUT of the potty mouths of billionaires sometimes comes potty sense. This was the case last week with Donald Trump, who weighed in on which bathrooms transgender people should use.

His answer: the ones they want. He assumed, correctly, that this is what many had been doing all along. He noted, accurately, that it hadn’t ushered in the apocalypse.

 

[jednc]

2 hours ago, QCxpat said:

From The New York Times, Sunday, April 24, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/opinion/sunday/tempest-in-a-toilet.html

SundayReview | OP-ED COLUMNIST

Tempest in a Toilet

Frank Bruni APRIL 23, 2016

 

Photo Credit Ben Wiseman

 

OUT of the potty mouths of billionaires sometimes comes potty sense. This was the case last week with Donald Trump, who weighed in on which bathrooms transgender people should use.

His answer: the ones they want. He assumed, correctly, that this is what many had been doing all along. He noted, accurately, that it hadn’t ushered in the apocalypse.

 

What a great headline. I'm upset I didn't think of that myself.

[kermit]

17 hours ago, tusculan said:

The business is there to provide a service and thus must accommodate every patron, but they don't have to accommodate the desires of the patron.

On this point you and I are in complete agreement.

I think our only point where our arguments diverge is on where transgender falls on the identity-preference line. I respect our disagreement on that point and I am not willing to debate it here.

 

[QCxpat]

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/24/475512005/north-carolina-to-boycott-or-not

U.S.

North Carolina: To Boycott Or Not

April 24, 2016  5:25 PM ET

Heard on All Things Considered

What are the ethics of boycotting North Carolina in protest of HB2? We ask Evangelist Rev. Alex McFarland, Duke Divinity School Professor William Willimon and Washington Post columnist Steven Petrow.

[tusculan]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

On this point you and I are in complete agreement.

I think our only point where our arguments diverge is on where transgender falls on the identity-preference line. I respect our disagreement on that point and I am not willing to debate it here.

 

Fair enough. Thanks for the discussion.

[QCxpat]

From The New York Times, National, Monday, April 25, 2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/22/travel/north-carolina-mississippi-lgbt-gay-rights-travel.html

U.S.

North Carolina and Mississippi See Tourist Backlash After L.G.B.T. Laws

By SHIVANI VORA  APRIL 22, 2016

Photo

 

The Appalachian Mountain range in North Carolina.  CreditGetty Images

Excerpts:

"The reaction has been swift."

"The singer Bryan Adams canceled his concert in Mississippi in protest against what he called an “anti-L.G.B.T.” law, and the actress Sharon Stonedecided not to film a movie there. In North Carolina, Bruce Springsteen,Ringo Starr, Pearl Jam and Ani DiFranco have canceled shows in response to a law regulating transgender bathroom access."

"While the celebrity response is drawing considerable attention, the travel industry in each state is more concerned about lower-profile visitors: the everyday tourists who have already begun canceling trips or planning vacations elsewhere."

[QCxpat]

From The Charlotte Observer  -  http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article73086142.html

BUSINESS

 APRIL 21, 2016 1:26 PM

NBA’s Silver: LGBT law must change to keep 2017 All-Star Game in Charlotte

By Katherine Peralta

"NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said Thursday that if North Carolina's LGBT law remains unchangaed, the 2017 All-Star Game would have to be moved from Charlotte."

 

[tusculan]

1 hour ago, QCxpat said:

From The Charlotte Observer  -  http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article73086142.html

BUSINESS

 APRIL 21, 2016 1:26 PM

NBA’s Silver: LGBT law must change to keep 2017 All-Star Game in Charlotte

By Katherine Peralta

"NBA Commissioner Adam Silver said Thursday that if North Carolina's LGBT law remains unchangaed, the 2017 All-Star Game would have to be moved from Charlotte."

 

Don't get me wrong...this is the only card to play. But its just weird to say I won't do business with you ---- unless you let only certain people choose which bathroom to go to. No separate but equal, but some are more equal. I see. Thanks, Orwell.

[nonillogical]

6 minutes ago, tusculan said:

Don't get me wrong...this is the only card to play. But its just weird to say I won't do business with you ---- unless you let only certain people choose which bathroom to go to. No separate but equal, but some are more equal. I see. Thanks, Orwell.

No...if HB2 is repealed then transgender people get to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify, just like you already do. I don't see how you could possibly see this as unequal unless you think that trans people tend to switch their identity back and forth flippantly and at will, but that is not the case (though there are people with gender ambiguity who may fit in equally in either, and you have to allow for their choice also). 

Also for the millionth time, the trans bathroom part of the bill is among the least of the aspects of HB2 that is inspiring boycotts. 

[Guest]

[cltcane]

For what it's worth, the Albemarle City Council realizes that HB2 is hurting its efforts to revitalize downtown and attract new out-of-state investment and jobs to the area.  They may not say so publicly because there is, from my limited samples, broad support for HB2 in Stanly County (although less so in Albemarle proper), but they know that a struggling former textile town has to be welcoming to everyone if their vision of turning downtown Albemarle into a mini downtown Salisbury is ever to become a reality.  Also, and I understand this probably sounds trivial to most here, but the Albemarle Cotillion Club recently welcomed its first openly-gay members, including a young married gay couple.

[abttown]

Some of you may have already read this article in the Observer, but it is a well written opinion piece about HB2.

With HB 2, N.C. is a ‘Rip Van Winkle state’ – again

[Dale]

I've somehow managed to miss this thread. Been out of the loop for a number of weeks. Have I missed another boycott from a company that does business in countries that execute homosexuals ? Somebody give me an update.

[ah59396]

10 minutes ago, Dale said:

I've somehow managed to miss this thread. Been out of the loop for a number of weeks. Have I missed another boycott from a company that does business in countries that execute homosexuals ? Somebody give me an update.

Do you actually need an update?  I can show you how to use google if you need to.  Otherwise your snarky BS is just wasting everyone's time.

[Dale]

Sorry to interrupt the lurid circle-jerk. Never mind the Dunning-Kruger echo chamber that is the thread. The thread title is ludicrous in the extreme.

[ah59396]

1 minute ago, Dale said:

Sorry to interrupt the lurid circle-jerk. Never mind the Dunning-Kruger echo chamber that is the thread. The thread title is ludicrous in the extreme.

Then...don't...read....it.....

 

No one's forcing you to be here bud.

[go_vertical]

1 hour ago, Dale said:

I've somehow managed to miss this thread. Somebody give me an update.

The great thing about forum threads is that everything is preserved for posterity. My suggestion....brew a pot of coffee, plant your butt on the couch, get comfy and start reading. It's a pretty good read too, filled with intrigue, suspense, and a little humor. 

[urbanlover568]

fwiw I think Charlotte will recover, but it will take years or decades. We need to have legislation in November that have unprecedented anti-discrimination policies to gain the worlds trust. If I were 1-term pat i would try to salvage whatever dignity he has left and apologize to Pay Pal for his childish behavior. 

[RiverwoodCLT]

• Johnny Harris: HB 2 hurting 'every aspect' of business in Charlotte
• It’s spooky,” Harris said of the lost business and continuing barrage of negative attention surrounding HB2. “Nobody thought it was this big a deal. ... The biggest problem is people we were talking to about coming here (to do business). Go to the convention and visitors bureau — now (they’re) not getting a phone call (from interested groups). They’re not coming. I’m not making this up. Some of the legislators think we’re making this up. We’re not. And they’re not on the firing line. If you don’t understand who pays the taxes and drives the buggy ...”

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/queen_city_agenda/2016/04/johnny-harris-hb2-already-hurting-businesses-in.html?ana=e_du_prem&s=article_du&ed=2016-04-30&u=wliErbChCYS6n81xplCL1O%2ByqpF&t=1462129178&j=72811042

 

When the taxes income to the state drops so they have to cut their pork of the budges, the GA will do nothing.

[CLTProductions]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article75601912.html

 

this is enormous. If this doesn't move the needle nothing will. We needed the rural areas to get hit. This will hit them. I'm willing to bet a lot of rural areas ENTIRELY rely on federal funding for schools.