The River District

[cltbwimob]

You guys are getting really worked up over a hypothetical site plan and conceptual drawings that probably do not represent reality.  If you look at the numbers, you will see that this area will actually be fairly dense by Charlotte standards.  Going off of KJH's numbers above, the net developable area of 826 acres is 1.29 square miles.  That means that there will be 8 mil sq ft of office, 500 K sq ft of retail, several hotels, 2 schools and 4500 housing units in less than 1.3 square miles.  I did some back of the envelope math and assuming that there are 1.5 occupants per multi family housing unit and 3 occupants per SF housing unit (I believe to be conservative numbers), the average population density will be 7200+ people per square mile of developable land.  Granted that is not NYC, SF, or DC density, but it would easily be one of the most densely populated areas in the city.  

With respect to building heights, etc. Remember this area is literally across the highway from the threshold of an active runway at an extraordinarily busy airport. That means that there are probably some height restrictions to these buildings so as to not interfere with aircraft operations, especially when the airfield is operating under IFR conditions.

Finally CATS is looking to implement transit here. That is part of the study that is currently underway for the West Corridor.  In fact, one of the biggest questions they are trying to answer is how to serve the River District with rail transit.  And I remember Brian Leary saying last year that the developers would be open to preserving a transit corridor.  So although it has not shown up in the site plan yet, realize that the transit agency doesn't have it in their plans either, yet they are very much looking to get transit into that area and are currently studying how to do so.

[Cadi40]

I Wish the buildings would be higher. What restrictions are you talking about? Nothing over 100 feet or so? 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Cadi40

[asthasr]

3 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

You guys are getting really worked up over a hypothetical site plan and conceptual drawings that probably do not represent reality.  If you look at the numbers, you will see that this area will actually be fairly dense by Charlotte standards.  Going off of KJH's numbers above, the net developable area of 826 acres is 1.29 square miles.  That means that there will be 8 mil sq ft of office, 500 K sq ft of retail, several hotels, 2 schools and 4500 housing units in less than 1.3 square miles.  I did some back of the envelope math and assuming that there are 1.5 occupants per multi family housing unit and 3 occupants per SF housing unit (I believe to be conservative numbers), the average population density will be 7200+ people per square mile of developable land.  Granted that is not NYC, SF, or DC density, but it would easily be one of the most densely populated areas in the city.  

With respect to building heights, etc. Remember this area is literally across the highway from the threshold of an active runway at an extraordinarily busy airport. That means that there are probably some height restrictions to these buildings so as to not interfere with aircraft operations, especially when the airfield is operating under IFR conditions.

Finally CATS is looking to implement transit here. That is part of the study that is currently underway for the West Corridor.  In fact, one of the biggest questions they are trying to answer is how to serve the River District with rail transit.  And I remember Brian Leary saying last year that the developers would be open to preserving a transit corridor.  So although it has not shown up in the site plan yet, realize that the transit agency doesn't have it in their plans either, yet they are very much looking to get transit into that area and are currently studying how to do so.

I'm really not disputing these ideas. It's dense in itself; the site selected limits height; and CATS has expressed interest in running transit there. However, it represents a huge greenfield development when our city already sprawls over a vast area and there are previously-developed areas that could be easily densified. We have the entire BLE which is already built with extremely mediocre development along the northern segment; I'd much rather see this investment go into that, since it's already paid for and exists.

[asthasr]

2 hours ago, Cadi40 said:

I Wish the buildings would be higher. What restrictions are you talking about? Nothing over 100 feet or so? 

It's impossible to know exactly what restrictions would be in place for this site in particular. However, in downtown San Jose the height limit is around 87m.

[Cadi40]

I wouldn't mind something like those buildings. I just don't want it to be a Ballantyne situation where everything is the same height with the same style and the same materials. If we had different buildings with different styles around the height of 87M or less, I would be fine with that. I just wish for something a little more visible then say Ballantyne height buildings. 

[CLT2014]

I think the bigger issue than the density numbers, is the layout of the site plan to execute that density. The residential area is so far removed from the sprawling office parks (which are set back down driveways behind green lawns) that people aren't going to walk to work from one section to another. You aren't going to have people walking home from work in winter down busy streets with traffic rushing by as you do a two mile walk through dark office park lawns to the "Residential" section. If the office buildings were 4-5 stories and in a row up against the street forming a "Main Street", maybe people would walk.

Even within the River District, you will need a car to go to the two shopping centers which are far removed from most of the housing. At 500k of retail, the residents will also be driving constantly to other areas of Charlotte to shop. It is barely two Targets and a grocery store worth of square footage. Even the school is in a separate area so students can't walk from the residential area to school. It will be the Los Angeles style combination of high density, but nothing is really practical and nearby so you still drive and park.

Edited December 3, 2017 by CLT2014

[Spartan]

1) The River District people are very committed to making their development highly bikeable. They want cycle tracks everywhere and off street paths. If they pull it off, it might be the most bike-friendly place to live in Charlotte, and might result in people who live there driving less.

2) Isn't the airport's height restriction based on flight paths (ie: San José, Orlando, San Diego)? Since this is located to one side of the airport, and with the diagonal runway going away, maybe they'll allow for greater height over time?

[go_vertical]

I'm certainly not an expert in this area, but what I've heard before is that in order for taller development to occur around an airport the flight patterns arriving and leaving the area must be studied and reconfigured. Residential impact studies are typically done as well since chances are the reasons why the flight patterns are where they were initially is to minimize impact to neighborhoods.

As you would imagine airlines and most likely every other entity affected push back on this because it's an inconvinience and an expense because the new flight paths may result in more fuel being used if avoiding towers becomes a factor. So, it's not unheard of but not that common either unless there was a serious benefit to someone involved (city, county, developer, etc.). 

Now this is information that was told to me by a friend that works at OIA. It isn't 100% accurate but more of a layman's description.

[NCMike1990]

I don't recall this video being posted but thought I'd share it.  Gives a lot of info on the River District.

 

[Cadi40]

I’ve gotten less excited for it the more I realize it’s just going to be a Ballantyne. I wish the office buildings were on side walks rather then in office parks away from the residential areas. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Yep. Zero intergration. Drive to your office building. Drive to your fast food “retail”.  Drive back to your house.  Yay!

[Hunted]

 

[deleted]

Went tubing at River Walk today.  They are adding more apartments with street level retail steps from the river.   Don't love everything about it but it's not bad and getting better.  The thread trail and river are awesome.  Charlotte's most accessible water.  Check it out if you haven't yet.  We put in near The Pumphouse.

[SydneyCarton]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 5:35 PM, NCMike1990 said:

I don't recall this video being posted but thought I'd share it.  Gives a lot of info on the River District.

 

That image is stunning.  This area will be magnificent.

[Cadi40]

9 hours ago, JBS said:

Went tubing at River Walk today.  They are adding more apartments with street level retail steps from the river.   Don't love everything about it but it's not bad and getting better.  The thread trail and river are awesome.  Charlotte's most accessible water.  Check it out if you haven't yet.  We put in near The Pumphouse.

I don’t recall them starting construction on the River District!? Have they already started?

[KJHburg]

^^^ RiverWalk is development on the old Celenease plant site in Rock Hill, no construction has started on the River District in west Charlotte. 

[Desert Power]

On 12/6/2017 at 11:42 AM, Spartan said:

1) The River District people are very committed to making their development highly bikeable. They want cycle tracks everywhere and off street paths. If they pull it off, it might be the most bike-friendly place to live in Charlotte, and might result in people who live there driving less.

Could be a really nice place to live and work, but it doesn't seem like we have great plans for getting people in and out of work that don't live there.  Feels irresponsible to try and build so much office space so disconnected from the rest of the city.

[Spartan]

8 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Could be a really nice place to live and work, but it doesn't seem like we have great plans for getting people in and out of work that don't live there.  Feels irresponsible to try and build so much office space so disconnected from the rest of the city.

You mean kinda like Ballantyne?

[Desert Power]

6 minutes ago, Spartan said:

You mean kinda like Ballantyne?

Yes, like Ballantyne.  Would be great to have learned from the issues with Ballantyne instead of trying to recreate it in a much worse location

[KJHburg]

This is not really like Ballantyne at all.  It will have office space for sure by I-485 and the westernmost runway.  That land is not suitable for residential.  The plans show more mixed use town center than all residential closest to the lake/river.    It is MUCH better for this huge tract to be developed under a master plan instead of piecemeal.   I would rather have office space developed there than in Ft Mill or even further out.   On other note the initial webpage is now missing but of course is listed on Lincoln Harris and Crescents websites. 

[Hushpuppy321]

I agree with the above comment.  High rise Office (10/15 stories) developed close to I-485 would be pretty cool and have far off views of the Airport and Uptown.   Really tired of Office / Company relocations to Ft. Mill and/or Indian Land.   Also - like to town center idea and they might be able to pull it off better than the Ballantyne development (which is itself nice) that doesn't have a town center.

[cjd5050]

I think this will be a good project for the region but fear it won't be great.   The problem I see is that the 'River District' really does not connect to the river for anyone but a few landowners.  That's a huge missed opportunity.  

With the trends of people wanting to live a 'walkable' lifestyle I just don't understand why they can't spend a little more money and buy out just a handful of the owners.  See below.

You could create at the endpoint a tight little village similar to what's found in the coastal cities of Europe.  A bunch of shops and a hotel could anchor the village.  Then you connect the village to the main commerce corridor with a grand parkway.  Something that Olmstead would have designed.  Two one way roads with a large median in the middle anchored by trees.  

This grand parkway could be home to 'estate lots' in the middle and storefronts closer to the end.   Addresses here would rival any address in Charlotte and it would create a grand parkway that would double as a park for everyone living off it.  

[Nick2]

It would be the biggest missed opportunity for many decades if they don't engage the actual  waterfront heavily.

[KJHburg]

This is great news for the city and its affordable housing programs.   Thanks Crescent for the donation!  https://www.crescentcommunities.com/media/crescent-communities-donates-45-acres-in-the-river-district-to-support-increased-access-to-affordable-housing

[deleted]

47 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

This is great news for the city and its affordable housing programs.   Thanks Crescent for the donation!  https://www.crescentcommunities.com/media/crescent-communities-donates-45-acres-in-the-river-district-to-support-increased-access-to-affordable-housing

Just to clarify, they couldn't put the period in the link.  It's 4.5, not 45.