The River District

[CLT2014]

^There isn't anything wrong with vinyl housing. People seem to be expecting this urban metropolis and ideal walkable community in the River District. It will likely end up fairly suburban and sprawling with more affordable single family housing for a new home. Certainly better than piecemeal development, but I think some have grandiose expectations for this versus what it will end up being. 

[Desert Power]

5 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

^There isn't anything wrong with vinyl housing. People seem to be expecting this urban metropolis and ideal walkable community in the River District. It will likely end up fairly suburban and sprawling with more affordable single family housing for a new home. Certainly better than piecemeal development, but I think some have grandiose expectations for this versus what it will end up being. 

I have very low exectations for this and am glad we are not prioritizing sending the rail here. They need to go back tot he drawing board.

[KJHburg]

The River District is zoned for 8 million sq ft of commercial space so it will be an employment hub like Ballantyne.  

[CLT2014]

3 hours ago, KJHburg said:

The River District is zoned for 8 million sq ft of commercial space so it will be an employment hub like Ballantyne.  

8 million square feet of office all funneling to one intersection on West Blvd, repeating the past sins of Ballantyne with Johnston Road.

The 5:15PM turn out of the office park on to West to get to I-485 is going to be a massive line of cars.

5 years after this is done, people will already be brainstorming ways to solve the congestion mess and how to fix intersections like the one in the plan.

[kermit]

I know that Crescent does plan to phase this development, but I am all about perspective today so I'll take the 8 million number literally and toss out some figures for fun.

8 million square feet of office:

• Almost 1/2 the size of the uptown submarket
• About 2x the size of the Southpark and Ballantyne submarkets
• Accommodates approximately 32,000 workers (@ 250 sqft each)
• Will require 133 acres of parking (to accommodate 32,000 cars). This is almost 10% of the acreage of the whole project so, hopefully much of the parking can be vertical
• Will take more than 13 years to absorb based on CBRE reported rates for 2018 (this assumes that no other new office was built in Uptown, Southend, Ballantyne or any other Charlotte submarket during those 13 years)

I do think Charlotte is going to continue to grow, but filling that space will require a BUNCH of big new tenants, particularly during a time where most people are assuming WFH will be increasingly popular. I would not put my money on 8 million square feet of office space out by the river anytime in the next 20+ years (but I wish Crescent luck).

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by kermit

[KJHburg]

I do think River District commercial component is a 20+  year plan.  Ballantyne has about 5 million sq ft office space and that has taken 25 years.    I think the first building was completed around 1995 in Ballantyne. 

[NDL.]

On 6/14/2020 at 9:47 AM, CLT2014 said:

^There isn't anything wrong with vinyl housing. People seem to be expecting this urban metropolis and ideal walkable community in the River District. It will likely end up fairly suburban and sprawling with more affordable single family housing for a new home. Certainly better than piecemeal development, but I think some have grandiose expectations for this versus what it will end up being. 

Much of the Steele Creek area has affordable single family housing; it would be nice if the River District took full advantage of the area's unique river features, plus the added benefit of being so close to both the Airport, and to Downtown CLT.  If done properly, the River District could really contribute to Charlotte's "brand."

 

[NDL.]

On 6/14/2020 at 9:05 PM, CLT2014 said:

8 million square feet of office all funneling to one intersection on West Blvd, repeating the past sins of Ballantyne with Johnston Road.

The 5:15PM turn out of the office park on to West to get to I-485 is going to be a massive line of cars.

5 years after this is done, people will already be brainstorming ways to solve the congestion mess and how to fix intersections like the one in the plan.

That's what makes me nuts:  they're going to build this out, and after it's fully complete and cemented in, people will clamor that "something needs to be done;" "West Blvd & 485 is at capacity;" "we need lightrail like Ballantyne," etc

What's really a shame about the whole thing, is that the area abuts the upcoming Silver Line;  designing the area around future rail would be very wise; hopefully, down the road, a leg off of the Silver Line could be installed.  If not, as another poster commented, what would've been the lightrail could be a greenway.

***
After seeing Rock Hill's Riverwalk development, I had high hopes for CLT's River District.  For as much as I am not a huge fan of Rock Hill, their Riverwalk development is building out into being something that's very nice and unique, with plenty of attractive apartments for those who aren't interested in owning a house.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by NDL.

[videtur quam contuor]

Long time without activity here. I drove along Dixie River and Sadler to see if there has been progress. Plenty of dense wooded areas interspersed with homes along the road and shoreline. The single point of action I saw was between Sadler and Lynn Parker a newly cut strip with a grader visible 30-40 yards into the trees on this graded strip. Not able to see further as the strip curved into the trees. On the left (airport) side there was a staging area with concrete sewer/storm drain sections and other supplies for improvement but this could be an area used for some other project, not the River District. Slow going, in other words. Nothing worth photographing. KJH photographed Sadler Road some pages back with riverside homes which I recognized from my drive. Also another private road or two off Dixie River Road toward the water that are marked no trespassing and I honored the warning.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

Long time without activity here. I drove along Dixie River and Sadler to see if there has been progress. Plenty of dense wooded areas interspersed with homes along the road and shoreline. The single point of action I saw was between Sadler and Lynn Parker a newly cut strip with a grader visible 30-40 yards into the trees on this graded strip. Not able to see further as the strip curved into the trees. On the left (airport) side there was a staging area with concrete sewer/storm drain sections and other supplies for improvement but this could be an area used for some other project, not the River District. Slow going, in other words. Nothing worth photographing. KJH photographed Sadler Road some pages back with riverside homes which I recognized from my drive. Also another private road or two off Dixie River Road toward the water that are marked no trespassing and I honored the warning.

This article from January said construction was set to start in 2021 focused on extending the road, building the town center, and getting the water infrastructure built: https://www.theriverdistrict.com/news/construction-to-begin-this-year/

[ertley]

I know I'm repeating myself, but I really, really, really hope Crescent, or CATS itself, recognizes the value of planning LONG term for this area, and coordinate to incorporate a right of way for a future Lynx line or spur. It would be SO EASY (obviously) and a no brainer when you're dealing with virgin property. Worst case scenario and the Lynx spur never manifests, you've got a terrific corridor for at bare minimum a fantastic multiuse trail.

When @kermit posted the graphic below in the Long Term CATS thread, I actually thought at the time that I'd rather see that red line originate from the River District, and then I realized I'd rather have it follow West Boulevard (more or less) until it can link to the Lynx silver line. That would push/encourage River District folks to travel towards the center city, rather than South Park. With the planned diversion of Donald Ross, or rather extension of Clanton, to connect to Ashley, you've got the last leg of the spur totally do-able as part of that right of way planning and acquisition process, because there's nothing but brown land all along that portion; and most of the intervening parts are through office parks and the like. 

You could even have a short shuttle line between one of the Blue Line stations and the spur, if constructing a "non-revenue" segment on one end would be practicable. But I generally don't think folks traveling east-west from the River District to South Park is as much of an issue as getting a big population center (if it's going to be in the same category as Ballantyne) with direct non-single vehicle access to downtown--and I truly believe the Silver Line will be transformational for Wilkinson and turn it into a new locus of offices and mixed use, so there would be that as well as decent airport access with a transfer.

With the eventual extension of West Boulevard over the Catawba--it's apparently definitely happening, just not controlled access west of the river like originally proposed, only a standard parkway/road--you're going to have the entire south Gastonia contingent (its middle class bread and butter) entering the Charlotte area proper from that ingress point, making a Lynx station for them in that area all the more important, and into downtown for commuters. 

I still contend that rather than trying to build anything above ground to South Park, the city should start planning now for its first underground rail line. If it took 40 years, since its first proposal or conceptualization, for light rail to get where it is today, I don't think it's crazy to suggest that planning for an underground line through south central Charlotte, to be constructed (or completed?) in the '60s (!!!), is fantastically unrealistic and shouldn't be begun now.

I realize it's a BIG dream, but I totally see a central underground line coming south down Park to the Park Road Shopping Center, then southeast to South Park, and then east to Strawberry Hill before basically following Providence south, ultimately to Rea Farms. If you didn't have stops between Strawberry Hill and the Arboretum, it would be a fairly fast service for people from the inner and outer 'burbs to central Charlotte. 

Anyway, I think the realities (i.e. NIMBYism and property values) and complexities (again, NIMBYism) of putting anything above ground in the South Park area make a light rail spur there far more unrealistic than an eventual underground line. But I've been wrong before. IMHO pushing for a spur from the River District for the near mid term--after the Silver Line is started--and meanwhile for the commuter rail line north in the mid term as well, are far more important, and then I say try for underground, as a next logical and logistical step. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by ertley

[rancenc]

Hospital could be in the works for Steele Creek area development.

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/planned-mixed-use-development-steele-creek-could-include-hospital/OIDVLDCP4FAMNJWYKFBYTNGIXU/

[rancenc]

Novant received approval for a hospital in the Steele Creek area.

https://journalnow.com/business/local/novant-gets-approval-for-fifth-community-hospital-in-mecklenburg/article_f16e68b8-b1a8-11eb-ac1e-9f57ec1aa786.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1

[KJHburg]

Updates to City Council tonight and the twitter feed of Colin Huguley of the Biz Journal:

Collin Huguley

@CBJHuguley

""Crescent's Chase Kerley is presenting the project. Upon full buildout, he says The River District will include 8 million square feet of office space, 500,000 square feet of retail, 2,500 homes, 2,500 multifamily units and 1,000 hotel tooms.   Groundbreaking for the project could come as early as later this year, Kerley said.    Kerley said the first homes could deliver at The River District in the spring of 2023. The affordable housing component, which is being developed by Laurel Street Residential, could deliver by the end of 2023.""

[JacksonH]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Updates to City Council tonight and the twitter feed of Colin Huguley of the Biz Journal:

Collin Huguley

@CBJHuguley

""Crescent's Chase Kerley is presenting the project. Upon full buildout, he says The River District will include 8 million square feet of office space, 500,000 square feet of retail, 2,500 homes, 2,500 multifamily units and 1,000 hotel tooms.   Groundbreaking for the project could come as early as later this year, Kerley said.    Kerley said the first homes could deliver at The River District in the spring of 2023. The affordable housing component, which is being developed by Laurel Street Residential, could deliver by the end of 2023.""

And how many acres of public park space?

[KJHburg]

27 minutes ago, JacksonH said:

And how many acres of public park space?

that I dont know.  they have the site plan so small on their website and I cant make it bigger I can't read it.  

[CLT Development]

1 hour ago, JacksonH said:

And how many acres of public park space?

550 acres.

[KJHburg]

From the Charlotte Ledger about Crescents plans for the River District

 ""Later phases will add more housing closer to the Catawba River, and more office space near I-485. There will be public river access once the 1,000th home is built. 

Open space: Crescent says there will be plenty of it — 460 acres of preserved common open space, a 75 acre wildlife preserve, 2.7 miles of riverfront, 30 parks, three water access points, 20 miles of bike and pedestrian trails, plus 3.5 miles of greenway. “This master plan is going to be a refreshing alternative to the traditional-use suburban model, designed to human scale rather than the automobile,” Kerley said.""

[Michael NDL]

On 10/6/2021 at 9:49 PM, KJHburg said:

From the Charlotte Ledger about Crescents plans for the River District

 ""...20 miles of bike and pedestrian trails, plus 3.5 miles of greenway. “This master plan is going to be a refreshing alternative to the traditional-use suburban model, designed to human scale rather than the automobile,” Kerley said.""

This leaves me wondering; it would be a debacle of epic proportions if the City doesn't mandate that the plan revolves around future lightrail.

The City built out the Gold Line, which many see as being wasteful, and many people are clamoring for lightrail around Ballantyne, as the roads there can't keep up. 

They talk about it being "human scale," instead of following the traditional automobile focused model, and this is good, but immediately preceding this statement, he talks about bike and greenway trails.  Both are encouraging developments, but not to the neglect of lightrail - at the very least they should be allocating space for future lightrail, such that a future line could be installed effortlessly.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Michael NDL

[Desert Power]

On 10/9/2021 at 3:58 PM, Michael NDL said:

This leaves me wondering; it would be a debacle of epic proportions if the City doesn't mandate that the plan revolves around future lightrail.

The City built out the Gold Line, which many see as being wasteful, and many people are clamoring for lightrail around Ballantyne, as the roads there can't keep up. 

They talk about it being "human scale," instead of following the traditional automobile focused model, and this is good, but immediately preceding this statement, he talks about bike and greenway trails.  Both are encouraging developments, but not to the neglect of lightrail - at the very least they should be allocating space for future lightrail, such that a future line could be installed effortlessly.

Really not feasible to connect this to the projected silver line track

[Michael NDL]

11 hours ago, Desert Power said:

Really not feasible to connect this to the projected silver line track

I respectfully disagree; they could easily run a line from the Airport down to the River District; the cost would be very minimal - as the land is not yet developed right now.  Riders would hop on at the River District, and transfer onto the Silver Line at the Airport.  The key here is simply to incorporate small easeways of land right now, as it's undeveloped; this would allow them the opportunity to run a future line in the future, at a minimal cost.  Surely a light rail leg into the River District would be used far greater than Phase 3 of the Gold Line.

I used to live in NY, and transfers between trains into Manhattan was done all of the time.

But I am afraid none of this will happen.

What will likely happen, is that the River District will get built out; the area will get quite congested; City leaders will say something to the effect of:  "the roads can't keep up;" "we didn't anticipate the popularity of the River District;" "we need light rail to the River District, but the costs are prohibitive."  From there, there will be a massive move to reconfigure the infrastructure within the River District, as is happening in Ballantyne right now.

[TGIBridays]

15 minutes ago, Michael NDL said:

I respectfully disagree; they could easily run a line from the Airport down to the River District; the cost would be very minimal - as the land is not yet developed right now.  Riders would hop on at the River District, and transfer onto the Silver Line at the Airport.  The key here is simply to incorporate small easeways of land right now, as it's undeveloped; this would allow them the opportunity to run a future line in the future, at a minimal cost.  Surely a light rail leg into the River District would be used far greater than Phase 3 of the Gold Line.

I used to live in NY, and transfers between trains into Manhattan was done all of the time.

But I am afraid none of this will happen.

I don't know too much about rail transit planning, but would a spur line work better than a separate line with a transfer?  Spur line might not be the correct term, but I was thinking that basically every other train would go towards the river district while the rest of the trains would go to Belmont.  This would result in a longer headways for the Belmont and River district sections, but those areas would be less dense and as long as the rest of the line had 10 ish minute headways the service would be about as good as the Blue Line is currently (~20 min headways).

[wilmore]

1 hour ago, Michael NDL said:

I respectfully disagree; they could easily run a line from the Airport down to the River District; the cost would be very minimal - as the land is not yet developed right now.  Riders would hop on at the River District, and transfer onto the Silver Line at the Airport.  The key here is simply to incorporate small easeways of land right now, as it's undeveloped; this would allow them the opportunity to run a future line in the future, at a minimal cost.  Surely a light rail leg into the River District would be used far greater than Phase 3 of the Gold Line.

I used to live in NY, and transfers between trains into Manhattan was done all of the time.

But I am afraid none of this will happen.

What will likely happen, is that the River District will get built out; the area will get quite congested; City leaders will say something to the effect of:  "the roads can't keep up;" "we didn't anticipate the popularity of the River District;" "we need light rail to the River District, but the costs are prohibitive."  From there, there will be a massive move to reconfigure the infrastructure within the River District, as is happening in Ballantyne right now.

For most everyday trips, this would be a one hour train ride each way, and therefore never get used - Phase 3 of the Gold Line isn't really the standard we should be striving for. 

[CLT2014]

I wonder if Crescent is getting cold feet on the idea of 8 million square feet of office given permanent changes on how and where people work in a post-Covid world.? Their interactive master plan now as the office portion "dark" and greyed out, while you can see details of the residentials and retail components of the project. https://www.theriverdistrict.com/master-plan 

Also, not impressed with more updated renderings released by Crescent. This is one of the most "dense" areas of the project.... lots of surface parking and sprawl. This isn't looking like anything transformational or dramatically different than any other suburban master planned development. A little "village" section surrounded by sprawling single family homes. This has already been done at Waverly, Baxter Village, Birkdale Village, Berewick, et... at the end of the day, this will be packed with Honda Odyssey minivans and Jeep Grand Cherokees. While this might be more walkable than your average suburban development.... this is still just a suburb. Berewick doesn't look that different just south of the River District. Central shopping hub with surface parking, multi-family apartments around that (with surface parking), followed by sprawling single family homes and greenways.

I think as far as suburban developments go, it will be nice, but this isn't the next urban metropolis of Charlotte. 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by CLT2014

[Desert Power]

de

3 hours ago, Michael NDL said:

I respectfully disagree; they could easily run a line from the Airport down to the River District; the cost would be very minimal - as the land is not yet developed right now.  Riders would hop on at the River District, and transfer onto the Silver Line at the Airport.  The key here is simply to incorporate small easeways of land right now, as it's undeveloped; this would allow them the opportunity to run a future line in the future, at a minimal cost.  Surely a light rail leg into the River District would be used far greater than Phase 3 of the Gold Line.

I used to live in NY, and transfers between trains into Manhattan was done all of the time.

But I am afraid none of this will happen.

What will likely happen, is that the River District will get built out; the area will get quite congested; City leaders will say something to the effect of:  "the roads can't keep up;" "we didn't anticipate the popularity of the River District;" "we need light rail to the River District, but the costs are prohibitive."  From there, there will be a massive move to reconfigure the infrastructure within the River District, as is happening in Ballantyne right now.

Unfortunately the "they" in this example is CATS. Even if the Silver Line gets built in 2 decades, I will have no confidence they will be able to manage these type of transitions between lines. Imagine trying to go to a job at Legacy Union from River District. With two transfers how long will that take?

The Gold Line probably shouldn't be extended either since the CATS can't operate it well.

I also am not bullish on the idea the River District will have nearly the amount of density/offices as Ballantyne.