The River District

[Matthew.Brendan]

CATS can not even operate a street car competently, barely any better with a single light rail line, and not even any true commuter rail in sight.

What do you really expect?

[Michael NDL]

On 10/11/2021 at 10:54 AM, TGIBridays said:

I don't know too much about rail transit planning, but would a spur line work better than a separate line with a transfer?  Spur line might not be the correct term, but I was thinking that basically every other train would go towards the river district while the rest of the trains would go to Belmont.  This would result in a longer headways for the Belmont and River district sections, but those areas would be less dense and as long as the rest of the line had 10 ish minute headways the service would be about as good as the Blue Line is currently (~20 min headways).

Agreed, a spur line would be a much better alternative than having to transfer between trains.  But my original point was that right now, they can set this up at next to no cost - it literally would cost them next to nothing - to develop the River District around a fictitious "rail trail."

On 10/11/2021 at 11:58 AM, wilmore said:

For most everyday trips, this would be a one hour train ride each way, and therefore never get used - Phase 3 of the Gold Line isn't really the standard we should be striving for. 

I disagree.

The first problem with the Silver Line, is that there are too many scheduled stops, which lengthen the ride; express service would speed things along.  Secondly, the other thing that would urge ridership are the parking issues associated with Uptown.

[Michael NDL]

22 hours ago, Desert Power said:

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Unfortunately the "they" in this example is CATS. Even if the Silver Line gets built in 2 decades, I will have no confidence they will be able to manage these type of transitions between lines. Imagine trying to go to a job at Legacy Union from River District. With two transfers how long will that take?

The Gold Line probably shouldn't be extended either since the CATS can't operate it well.

I also am not bullish on the idea the River District will have nearly the amount of density/offices as Ballantyne.

Let's say you're right: the density isn't there.  But what would it cost them to arrange the development around a fictitious rail trail?  Conversely, what if the River District adds population over the years...everyone will clamor about how they "really missed the ball" by not designing into the fabric of this development, a rail trail.

As for phase 3 of the Gold Line, I agree:  it shouldn't be extended; the thing is a waste, and the phase 3 extension provides too much overlap with the southeast leg of the Silver Line.  

[CLT2014]

Regular Express Buses between the River District and Uptown would be much faster for the portion of the ~10,000 River District residents that decide to live in the district and commute into Uptown. If we wanted to connect the River District to the areas people will shop and play, that is probably having a light rail connection from the River District to Berewick and the Steele Creek area. That is where the shopping and errands people would do are located that are not self contained in the River District itself. I think the principal traffic we'll get from the River District is cars driving back and forth on I-485 running errands, going to restaurants, et.. versus into Uptown for a portion of commuters. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by CLT2014

[Michael NDL]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Regular Express Buses between the River District and Uptown would be much faster for the portion of the ~10,000 River District residents that decide to live in the district and commute into Uptown. If we wanted to connect the River District to the areas people will shop and play, that is probably having a light rail connection from the River District to Berewick and the Steele Creek area. That is where the shopping and errands people would do are located that are not self contained in the River District itself. I think the principal traffic we'll get from the River District is cars driving back and forth on I-485 running errands, going to restaurants, et.. versus into Uptown for a portion of commuters. 

I'll give you that - in that an express bus might adequately serve the River District.  But what I would really love to see:  a light rail spur traversing the River District, which terminates at the outlets.  I would imagine that college students from UNC, and people around South End and Uptown, whose developments are becoming less and less auto dependant, would use the rail to shop at the outlets; students would use light rail to commute to their jobs at the outlets.

***

If I seem overzealous over the development of rail, it's only because my former home of suburban NYC was a complete and utter mess:  the roads couldn't keep up, to the extent where residents literally wouldn't go anywhere; planning trips outside of our immediate area became near prohibitive.  There was simply no enjoyment taking a recreational daytrip, when a huge part of the daytrip was spent sitting in hours of traffic, therefore, many recreational activities were left undone.  And because so much time was wasted by sitting in hours of traffic, the environment was one whereupon residents felt as though they didn't have enough hours in the day, thus the pace became very harried, and people were nasty - which affected the cohesion of the community.

Ultimately, what would be great is if CLT's rail system connected to major shopping attractions; the River District will have water access, and it would be great for residents to be able to seamlessly connect to the water, to Uptown, and to major shopping via rail.  Conversely, if the River District follows a suburban sprawl model, we will have created another Atlanta.

It would be a blunder of epic proportions for the City, and River District planners, to not incorporate a fictitious rail trail throughout the yet unbuilt River District.

[KJHburg]

I think the majority of residents who reside in the future River District will work in places in and around the airport very close by or even in the Arrowood Westinghouse area or even Ballantyne around 485.  Yes a few might work uptown or in southend but I think the majority of residents will work in other directions and hopefully in the future in the River District itself with its future 8M sq ft of office space. 

[JRCLT]

To be honest…i am not sure who feels this way too, it may be just me- but this just feels very suburbia to me. The density is questionable windy roads which typically aren’t bad but this project kind of reminds of a single family zoning area. It’s low density and the plan look uninspired. I am not saying I am against this development, but if you’re talking about light rail access I’d say it would need to be pretty dense and populated for demand to warrant its own spur line. I guess it would also be it’s own catapult spur where it would be a launching pad for a new line, but building it then would really depend on how dense this district actually becomes which I don’t doubt it can be a center such as Ballantyne, I don’t know the future. I also realize the renderings aren’t exactly how it will look like, but seeing the proposals in the Raleigh area and looking at the river district…I see some gap in ambitions and vision. Though not all bad things I do like the fact that there is a lot of greenways planned along with paths and a large amount of nature remaining. As it is pitched it seems to aim to be walkable and people friendly which is also good. I don’t know how exactly I feel about this project I think I would like to learn more about it. Anyone feel free to tell me a few things that would set this development apart or how it differs from how I view it!

[CLT Development]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

To be honest…i am not sure who feels this way too, it may be just me- but this just feels very suburbia to me. The density is questionable windy roads which typically aren’t bad but this project kind of reminds of a single family zoning area. It’s low density and the plan look uninspired. I am not saying I am against this development, but if you’re talking about light rail access I’d say it would need to be pretty dense and populated for demand to warrant its own spur line. I guess it would also be it’s own catapult spur where it would be a launching pad for a new line, but building it then would really depend on how dense this district actually becomes which I don’t doubt it can be a center such as Ballantyne, I don’t know the future. I also realize the renderings aren’t exactly how it will look like, but seeing the proposals in the Raleigh area and looking at the river district…I see some gap in ambitions and vision. Though not all bad things I do like the fact that there is a lot of greenways planned along with paths and a large amount of nature remaining. As it is pitched it seems to aim to be walkable and people friendly which is also good. I don’t know how exactly I feel about this project I think I would like to learn more about it. Anyone feel free to tell me a few things that would set this development apart or how it differs from how I view it!

 

Its not suburban, its closely following the topography and the limitations of the site, while preserving 1/4 of it to greenspace. As far as density goes, it could be home to 12,000 people within 800 acres of development.  Thats denser than Dilworth.

Edited October 13, 2021 by The Real Clayton

[carolina1792]

On 10/11/2021 at 1:53 PM, CLT2014 said:

I wonder if Crescent is getting cold feet on the idea of 8 million square feet of office given permanent changes on how and where people work in a post-Covid world.? Their interactive master plan now as the office portion "dark" and greyed out, while you can see details of the residentials and retail components of the project. https://www.theriverdistrict.com/master-plan 

Also, not impressed with more updated renderings released by Crescent. This is one of the most "dense" areas of the project.... lots of surface parking and sprawl. This isn't looking like anything transformational or dramatically different than any other suburban master planned development. A little "village" section surrounded by sprawling single family homes. This has already been done at Waverly, Baxter Village, Birkdale Village, Berewick, et... at the end of the day, this will be packed with Honda Odyssey minivans and Jeep Grand Cherokees. While this might be more walkable than your average suburban development.... this is still just a suburb. Berewick doesn't look that different just south of the River District. Central shopping hub with surface parking, multi-family apartments around that (with surface parking), followed by sprawling single family homes and greenways.

I think as far as suburban developments go, it will be nice, but this isn't the next urban metropolis of Charlotte. 

 

 

Woah that's really bad. It looks like a generic car-oriented project you would see developed around Concord. Doesn't look pleasant to walk around. For example, no controlled pedestrian crosswalks, it's built for the car. 

[JHart]

On 10/11/2021 at 1:53 PM, CLT2014 said:

I wonder if Crescent is getting cold feet on the idea of 8 million square feet of office given permanent changes on how and where people work in a post-Covid world.? Their interactive master plan now as the office portion "dark" and greyed out, while you can see details of

the residentials and retail components of the project. https://www.theriverdistrict.com/master-plan 

Also, not impressed with more updated renderings released by Crescent. This is one of the most "dense" areas of the project.... lots of surface parking and sprawl. This isn't looking like anything transformational or dramatically different than any other suburban master planned development. A little "village" section surrounded by sprawling single family homes. This has already been done at Waverly, Baxter Village, Birkdale Village, Berewick, et... at the end of the day, this will be packed with Honda Odyssey minivans and Jeep Grand Cherokees. While this might be more walkable than your average suburban development.... this is still just a suburb. Berewick doesn't look that different just south of the River District. Central shopping hub with surface parking, multi-family apartments around that (with surface parking), followed by sprawling single family homes and greenways.

I think as far as suburban developments go, it will be nice, but this isn't the next urban metropolis of Charlotte. 

Exactly. This is actually less dense than even Waverly. There is only 1 small portion that you could reasonably consider walkable to mixed use and the rest are mostly single family suburban neighborhoods that will drive to the "Town Center" to go out to eat. 

I imagine the "Town Center" to be essentially be Kingsly in Fort Mill with the surrounding area resembling the Riverwalk in Rock Hill. Certainly a good suburban project, but by no means an additional urban center for the city. 

[JRCLT]

Its not suburban, its closely following the topography and the limitations of the site, while preserving 1/4 of it to greenspace. As far as density goes, it could be home to 12,000 people within 800 acres of development.  Thats denser than Dilworth.
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2021_10/image.thumb.png.d976eda77a7f88a104cb9ccd16cdc47a.png

Yeah, at least in terms of density it seems great…at least on paper. Perhaps it’s just the SFH and the way it’s arranged. Seeing cul-de-sacs also throw me off. I think they are a very suburban feature which these roads could be set up to be much more pedestrian friendly which cul-de-sacs are not.

[TheRealClayton]

5 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Yeah, at least in terms of density it seems great…at least on paper. Perhaps it’s just the SFH and the way it’s arranged. Seeing cul-de-sacs also throw me off. I think they are a very suburban feature which these roads could be set up to be much more pedestrian friendly which cul-de-sacs are not.

I mean, Dixie River Road (God lets change the name) is more than a mile long of mixed use and multifamily density. The folks saying that its "less dense than waverly" are looking at the "Town Square" they are trying to create around a working farm, vs the "Town Center" which will be just south of there, and be much more dense. I cannot stress how cool this community could be, and it will all be criss crossed and connected by bike lanes, walking trails, greenways, and more. This will be a mecca and a destination for outdoorsy people.

Edited October 13, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[deleted account]

I have lately had an unrealistic hope that the River District could be a great place to expand North Carolina's movie and television production.  It would be a great spot for sound stages and outside filming locations while still having real residential and retail components (not to mention significant green space). It is adjacent to the airport. It would be a huge draw for regional tourism. With commercial real estate facing some legitimate headwinds, it would seem to be a reasonable opportunity to reconsider the focus of this project.  Obviously similar projects have been a boon for Georgia. I suspect this can't happen for various reasons but the River District seems an ideal spot for a mixed use movie studio...

[TheRealClayton]

39 minutes ago, JBS said:

I have lately had an unrealistic hope that the River District could be a great place to expand North Carolina's movie and television production.  It would be a great spot for sound stages and outside filming locations while still having real residential and retail components (not to mention significant green space). It is adjacent to the airport. It would be a huge draw for regional tourism. With commercial real estate facing some legitimate headwinds, it would seem to be a reasonable opportunity to reconsider the focus of this project.  Obviously similar projects have been a boon for Georgia. I suspect this can't happen for various reasons but the River District seems an ideal spot for a mixed use movie studio...

I don't think that's unrealistic at all. I'll pitch it to them next time I talk to Crescent.

Edited October 13, 2021 by TheRealClayton

[JHart]

2 hours ago, TheRealClayton said:

This will be a mecca and a destination for outdoorsy people.

You're sandwiched between the airport and Charlotte's only coal burning power plant. I'm all for greenways/bike trails through suburban neighborhoods but come on, surely mecca is laying it on a little thick for marketing. 

[kayman]

4 hours ago, JBS said:

I have lately had an unrealistic hope that the River District could be a great place to expand North Carolina's movie and television production.  It would be a great spot for sound stages and outside filming locations while still having real residential and retail components (not to mention significant green space). It is adjacent to the airport. It would be a huge draw for regional tourism. With commercial real estate facing some legitimate headwinds, it would seem to be a reasonable opportunity to reconsider the focus of this project.  Obviously similar projects have been a boon for Georgia. I suspect this can't happen for various reasons but the River District seems an ideal spot for a mixed use movie studio...

You should pitch this and continue to pitch this idea.  There should be at least 2 motion picture soundstages in the Charlotte area by now.  Filming is bigger here than even Wilmington even with the Screen Gems Soundstage there.  Leadership is slipping on capitalizing on the economic opportunities for more creative types relocating and a possible state filming industry training program being based here. 

[Matthew.Brendan]

Charlotte is that teenage kid sitting in the guidance counselors office (again) as the counselor explains to the parents how despite all their natural gifts, the kid just “doesn’t live up to their potential”. 
 

As other have said here, Charlotte succeeds despite its leadership. Imagine if we could break out of amateur hour.

Shout outs to those who are actively trying to make it better. Lest it seem like I’m just complaining. I genuinely want Charlotte to be the best it can be, as I think we all do. 

[kermit]

^ We are a town made up largely of temporary residents. Everybody cares about what Charlotte will be in two years, very few give a crap about what the city is in 20 years.

Not enough people are willing to prepare for that future. It is a shame, because unlike many cities, Charlotte's future is very easily visualized (spoiler, it will be LOTS bigger).

EDIT: Back in the day there was a community-wide insecurity/desire to make Charlotte 'world-class' which encouraged people to make sacrifices to improve the future of the city (e.g. the Blue Line). Unfortunately that desire has mutated into an overwhelming municipal attitude of 'whatever you want to do is fine, as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.'

Edited October 14, 2021 by kermit

[TheRealClayton]

20 hours ago, JHart said:

You're sandwiched between the airport and Charlotte's only coal burning power plant. I'm all for greenways/bike trails through suburban neighborhoods but come on, surely mecca is laying it on a little thick for marketing. 

Mecca is what I see in the plans, which I have full access to. The urban designers I've talked to about it including my good friend @MarcoPolo are salivating over the possibilities. 

[Richhamleigh, DC]

17 hours ago, kayman said:

You should pitch this and continue to pitch this idea.  There should be at least 2 motion picture soundstages in the Charlotte area by now.  Filming is bigger here than even Wilmington even with the Screen Gems Soundstage there.  Leadership is slipping on capitalizing on the economic opportunities for more creative types relocating and a possible state filming industry training program being based here. 

You can thank the NCGA for the collapse of the NC film and tv industry back when they stopped incentives and passed HB1.  Georgia quickly jumped on it and we have the situation today.  Fortunately, NC has much more diverse filming locations than GA.  

[kayman]

On 10/13/2021 at 7:39 PM, kermit said:

^ We are a town made up largely of temporary residents. Everybody cares about what Charlotte will be in two years, very few give a crap about what the city is in 20 years.

Not enough people are willing to prepare for that future. It is a shame, because unlike many cities, Charlotte's future is very easily visualized (spoiler, it will be LOTS bigger).

EDIT: Back in the day there was a community-wide insecurity/desire to make Charlotte 'world-class' which encouraged people to make sacrifices to improve the future of the city (e.g. the Blue Line). Unfortunately that desire has mutated into an overwhelming municipal attitude of 'whatever you want to do is fine, as long as it doesn't inconvenience me.'

Agreed! It's all the more reason to be more forceful and vocal about the desire of planning for the future. That's why I'm pushing for CATS to vecome separate from the City of Charlotte and the merger of the 5 MPOs in the region in an independent bi-state regional planning commission. I'm here for the long haul and I will be doing exactly that. 

[kayman]

Just now, kayman said:

Agreed! It's all the more reason to be more forceful and vocal about the desire of planning for the future. That's why I'm pushing for CATS to vecome separate from the City of Charlotte and the merger of the 5 MPOs in the region in an independent bi-state regional planning commission. I'm here for the long haul and I will be doing exactly that. 

You know it was a certain ideological faction in the NCGA that pushed for that bc they knew it would accelerate growth and political change. They're now on the ropes still because NC is still growing regardless of their nonsense

[tozmervo]

19 minutes ago, kayman said:

Agreed! It's all the more reason to be more forceful and vocal about the desire of planning for the future. That's why I'm pushing for CATS to vecome separate from the City of Charlotte and the merger of the 5 MPOs in the region in an independent bi-state regional planning commission. I'm here for the long haul and I will be doing exactly that. 

I know this doesn't exactly address your concerns, but there is a pretty substantial study underway that looks at the broader metro and various transit systems/mobility options
Connect Beyond - A Regional Mobility Initiative (connect-beyond.com)

[kayman]

1 minute ago, tozmervo said:

I know this doesn't exactly address your concerns, but there is a pretty substantial study underway that looks at the broader metro and various transit systems/mobility options
Connect Beyond - A Regional Mobility Initiative (connect-beyond.com)

Ironically that's something that I'm intimately involved in. It will be step one of pushing for a more cohesive metropolitan area for long term transportation planning 

[Michael NDL]

In Jan of 2021, The River District website said that "construction begins;" we're now in Jan 2022.  Have there been no new developments worth reporting?  Even the expansion of roads, new roads...information regarding this project is scant.