The River District

[tozmervo]

The river wasn't navigable until the dams were built. In other words, it was worthless for trade. And when you can't trade on a river, it's far too dangerous to settle along.

[jednc]

34 minutes ago, Silicon Dogwoods said:

I could even see a second CBD along the river.

More than one person has puzzled why our founders settled where they did instead of along the river. I know it's an elevated escarpment (hence 'Uptown,') but it seems like the river would have been a better site for newborn Charlottetowne.

Or maybe they did scope it out but the two ridges east and west presented too much of a challenge for early settlers?

I think it all came down to trade. The Catawba isn't navigable and there were already two established trade routes crossing at what we call The Square. Hence, Charlotte was born where trade was easiest.

[videtur quam contuor]

I know that the Europeans followed trading paths that First Peoples used. First peoples used for trade, communication and seasonal food sources. But I have wondered if the First Peoples were following animal paths as seasonal food sources of animals changed, water sources, fords and so on. Animals follow the easiest path and the ridge is the easiest and least likely to present danger thus the Tryon Street path. Just a wonder. (No good news here).

This relates to good news in that the difficulty of transportation, infrastructure and communication, even in this interconnected world, still MUST allow for such patterns from the distant past. Patterns of attraction and avoidance.

[CLT2014]

6 hours ago, CLT704 said:

I've heard Charlotte been called the City of Trees. Boating down the Catawba River is always nice with all the trees!

With the idea of the development, will it be secessful? West Charlotte, especially between the Airport and Belmont isn't what people think of for a new development.

Unless they address the school situation early, I don't see the SFH neighborhoods being successful with families, especially in the  $300k + price range for a house.

Edited March 31, 2016 by CLT2014

[Spartan]

I moved this form the good news thread. 

I think this is inevitable. Its a ton of land on a river next to major transportation connections for all modes in the largest city in the Carolinas. 

My main concern is that we don't make the same mistakes we did with Ballantyne. Lets make sure we can run transit out there and that it has more than one road for access.

[drawscape]

I have often daydreamed about an urban area near the Catawba.  I am kind of disappointed it's going to be on the other side of the airport as I'm sure it's going to constrict major roads to the edges of the runways and I would imagine there would some kind of height restrictions as well. 

 

I was comparing this area to the size of Uptown and it's a pretty massive area but also kind of a weird shape. It would be awesome if they could make this into an international competition for a masterplan, so perhaps we could get something compelling.

[Silicon Dogwoods]

8 hours ago, Spartan said:

I moved this form the good news thread. 

I think this is inevitable. Its a ton of land on a river next to major transportation connections for all modes in the largest city in the Carolinas. 

My main concern is that we don't make the same mistakes we did with Ballantyne. Lets make sure we can run transit out there and that it has more than one road for access.

Johnny Harris has been a great Charlottean.

But his architectural taste and urban planning chops are...how can I say this?....dull. Boring. Severely traditional. Lacking. 

Oh well. It leases up, no problem.

Ballantyne annoys me every time I have to drive out there. 

[cjd5050]

Maybe I am one of the few who is actually looking forward to this project.  

I think that no matter what happens Uptown is going to continue to develop density in both housing and office space.  So if you look at Charlotte over the next 30 or 50 years, I think it's very important to build 'urban centers' along the Beltway.  Ballantyne is one. University is another. This will be the third.  The good news for the University area is it's going to be unlocked by light rail.  Ballantyne is unlikely.  I think for this area, light rail is the key.

I think we can all agree that extending rail service to the airport would have some amazing benefits.  Not just on how Uptown functions but also unlocking all of the development between Uptown and the airport.  This project is just past the airport and it appears they want to cluster the office space next to the 485.  

If CATS, the City and County are to get ahead of this, they should start by quickly developing plans for how light rail will access this area.  Even just planning right of ways can have a tremendous impact on how the office parks will be laid out.  I would think the developers would be in favor of this as having light rail to the front door of their 8mm s/f of office space would increase the value without a cost to them.  

 

I understand that there are many existing residents who already life down there.  They may eventually need to move..if they want.  But I think it's safe to say that the value of their property is going to go through the roof.  Either by people purchasing the smaller homes to build river mansions or developers looking to build out density.  It's better than putting in some sort of industrial zoning is my point.  It could be worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SgtCampsalot]

Crescent is now solely in the business of creating urban style communities, right? Haven't they had success with stuff up I-77 before they started work on the NoDa station project? I don't yet grasp how Crescent and Lincoln-Harris with both do this project, but surely Crescent knows what they're doing...*

*famous last words.

[KJHburg]

Crescent and Lincoln Harris both co developed Piedmont Row in SouthPark which was a complicated project:  2 8 story office towers, condos, and retail. Lincoln Harris is doing the Rea Farms development on the old Golf Links site off Providence Rd which will have retail, office, housing etc. I would say these are Charlotte's 2 best developers (along with Childress Klein being the third) and they are fully capable of developing a huge project like this over many years. As for housing I would see a lot of as townhomes (which schools may not be an issue or apartments) but schools are always an issue in Mecklenburg county especially with student reassignment being talked again. Overall I am very excited about this project and I would challenge you if you not been in that area to drive around it today and you  will think why hasn't this been developed as it is so close to airport and the city. It feels like it is about 40 miles from Charlotte instead of less than 10 from downtown. 

[Prodev]

2 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Crescent is now solely in the business of creating urban style communities, right? Haven't they had success with stuff up I-77 before they started work on the NoDa station project? I don't yet grasp how Crescent and Lincoln-Harris with both do this project, but surely Crescent knows what they're doing...*

*famous last words.

No. Crescent has a residential arm that has done horizontal construction and sold lots to homebuilders. They recently announced they're now getting into the vertical construction side and will be building homes themselves. They also occassionally build garden apartments, like the ones they recently sold on Mallard Creek Church in UC. 

[Silicon Dogwoods]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Crescent and Lincoln Harris both co developed Piedmont Row in SouthPark which was a complicated project:  2 8 story office towers, condos, and retail. Lincoln Harris is doing the Rea Farms development on the old Golf Links site off Providence Rd which will have retail, office, housing etc. I would say these are Charlotte's 2 best developers (along with Childress Klein being the third) and they are fully capable of developing a huge project like this over many years. As for housing I would see a lot of as townhomes (which schools may not be an issue or apartments) but schools are always an issue in Mecklenburg county especially with student reassignment being talked again. Overall I am very excited about this project and I would challenge you if you not been in that area to drive around it today and you  will think why hasn't this been developed as it is so close to airport and the city. It feels like it is about 40 miles from Charlotte instead of less than 10 from downtown. 

1) Myers Park (1911) and to a lesser extent, Dilworth (1891.) Myers Park was such a landmark development that everything flowed south from that for years, then ran into the Morrison estate which continued on southward. It wasn't until the 1980s that the north side began to develop, then Ballantyne in the far south opened in the 1990s.

2) Charlotte's west side has always been seen as poor white, later poor black (with some exceptions of middle class enclaves), industrial and of course, the airport. There was no desirable connectivity to the rest of Charlotte-only West Blvd. and Wilkinson Blvd. Now we have I-485.

3) There was until recently plenty of land to develop in Mecklenburg County. Now, there's not much left in the way of greenfield. This is a big chunk, at the river.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Silicon Dogwoods

[KJHburg]

I know the historical patterns of development but I am surprised this would have not been developed as industrial or warehousing sooner but I think several large landowners including Crescent would not break it up for that. Anyway it is a great development site and it is good that it is being master planned to include a mix of uses. 

[caterpillar2]

53 minutes ago, Silicon Dogwoods said:

1) Myers Park (1911) and to a lesser extent, Dilworth (1891.) Myers Park was such a landmark development that everything flowed south from that for years, then ran into the Morrison estate which continued on southward. It wasn't until the 1980s that the north side began to develop, then Ballantyne in the far south opened in the 1990s.

2) Charlotte's west side has always been seen as poor white, later poor black (with some exceptions of middle class enclaves), industrial and of course, the airport. There was no desirable connectivity to the rest of Charlotte-only West Blvd. and Wilkinson Blvd. Now we have I-485.

3) There was until recently plenty of land to develop in Mecklenburg County. Now, there's not much left in the way of greenfield. This is a big chunk, at the river.

Other westside arteries to Charlotte were highway #27 (Thrift Rd./Freedom Dr.)  Tuckaseegee Road, Rozzel,s Ferry Road, and Beatty's Ford Road. All became well developes. Areas included are Thomasboro, Hoskins, Ashley Park, Westerly Hills, Smallwood, and Beatty's Ford communities.

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 6:49 PM, jednc said:

I think it all came down to trade. The Catawba isn't navigable and there were already two established trade routes crossing at what we call The Square. Hence, Charlotte was born where trade was easiest.

It is interesting that the Spanish temporarily settled near Morganton via the Catawba (circa 1567) making it one of the first temporary Spanish settlements in this part of the pre-colonial world. It was called Fort San Juan. So maybe smaller craft would be able to navigate to the extent of forming tourist attractions? Some dredging may be required.

Edited April 1, 2016 by caterpillar2

[Silicon Dogwoods]

2 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

Other westside arteries to Charlotte were highway #27 (Thrift Rd./Freedom Dr.)  Tuckaseegee Road, Rozzel,s Ferry Road, and Beatty's Ford Road. All became well developes. Areas included are Thomasboro, Hoskins, Ashley Park, Westerly Hills, Smallwood, and Beatty's Ford communities.

It is interesting that the Spanish temporarily settled near Morganton via the Catawba (circa 1567) making it one of the first temporary Spanish settlements in this part of the pre-colonial world. It was called Fort San Juan. So maybe smaller craft would be able to navigate to the extent of forming tourist attractions? Some dredging may be required.

I said desirable connectivity. But yes, those are arteries, too...

I think it's spelled Rozzelles, which I always thought must be a corruption of Roswell's. And today it's spelled Beatties, though in an earlier era it may well have been Beatty's.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Silicon Dogwoods

[Nick2]

I think that there is huge potential for a beautifully done, master-planned community. I'll reserve my opinion until more specific details comes out. I hope that there is mid-low rise development rather than high rise. Keep the high rises in uptown. We don't want to end up looking like dallas, houston, or atlanta.

[Silicon Dogwoods]

I think Atlanta's 'look' is ok. There are towers in Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead/Lenox, Perimeter, even some mid-rises in Vinings, if I recall correctly. I'm ok with that.

I don't see why we can't have a second business district at the river that includes high-rises. 

Of course, our developers have declined to build high-rises at SouthPark and Ballantyne, so the River District probably won't have them, either.

[caterpillar2]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 3:56 PM, Silicon Dogwoods said:

I said desirable connectivity. But yes, those are arteries, too...

I think it's spelled Rozzelles, which I always thought must be a corruption of Roswell's. And today it's spelled Beatties, though in an earlier era it may well have been Beatty's.

And to think I lived on Rozzelles Ferry Road years and years ago. Actually Rozzelles is derived from Rossel originating in Switzerland. They are in my family tree somewhere.

[jednc]

On 4/1/2016 at 1:23 PM, caterpillar2 said:

Other westside arteries to Charlotte were highway #27 (Thrift Rd./Freedom Dr.)  Tuckaseegee Road, Rozzel,s Ferry Road, and Beatty's Ford Road. All became well developes. Areas included are Thomasboro, Hoskins, Ashley Park, Westerly Hills, Smallwood, and Beatty's Ford communities.

It is interesting that the Spanish temporarily settled near Morganton via the Catawba (circa 1567) making it one of the first temporary Spanish settlements in this part of the pre-colonial world. It was called Fort San Juan. So maybe smaller craft would be able to navigate to the extent of forming tourist attractions? Some dredging may be required.

I grew up in Morganton. The discovery of that fort was amazing. It's the oldest inland European settlement in the United States. It wasn't there long though...the Indians saw to that.

[Spartan]

On April 2, 2016 at 11:03 PM, Silicon Dogwoods said:

I think Atlanta's 'look' is ok. There are towers in Downtown, Midtown, Buckhead/Lenox, Perimeter, even some mid-rises in Vinings, if I recall correctly. I'm ok with that.

I don't see why we can't have a second business district at the river that includes high-rises. 

Of course, our developers have declined to build high-rises at SouthPark and Ballantyne, so the River District probably won't have them, either.

I don't think that last statement is accurate. It's probably some combination of lack of demand for true high rises in those areas, neighborhood opposition (though that's mainly in South Park), and zoning restrictions (other than uptown, there are de facto restrictions on high rises Charlotte).

Your point about multiple high rise districts is valid though. We will probably get to that point eventually. 

[RiverwoodCLT]

My question is,  would the airport want to built another runway west of I485?   Would the River District be in the way?

[Deleted.]

2 hours ago, RiverwoodCLT said:

My question is,  would the airport want to built another runway west of I485?   Would the River District be in the way?

Any further parallel runway would be built towards Uptown, east of Runway 18L/36R. The airport considers I-485 the boundary of expansion so to speak. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Piedmont767
Runway numbering confusion

[cjd5050]

On 4/1/2016 at 6:02 PM, Nick2 said:

I think that there is huge potential for a beautifully done, master-planned community. I'll reserve my opinion until more specific details comes out. I hope that there is mid-low rise development rather than high rise. Keep the high rises in uptown. We don't want to end up looking like dallas, houston, or atlanta.

I think the FAA has your back on this.  

[KJHburg]

Here is a new website Crescent and Lincoln Harris set up for the River District. Seems like more single family homes now than first reported which might be on lots closer to the lake. http://www.riverdistrictinfo.com/

[RaleighHeelsfan]

I hate this proposal. So single family homes on and closer to the river...blah. So the public will not be able to enjoy the river.

 On and near the river needs to be commercial, office and condo. (mixed use) 3 to maybe 10 story buildings, with a river walk if possible.