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Winter Park & Maitland


prahaboheme

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On 3/7/2018 at 3:44 PM, jrs2 said:

I have been crying for a few years now how they need to develop that 6-way intersection with at least 3-story buildings to frame the intersection.  They've already got that awesome clock there.

I really don't understand what Winter Park (and Maitland to a lesser extent) city planners are doing.  

They are stuffing oversized new homes on small plots.

They are encouraging modern architecture over traditional. The new homes will look dated in a few years. Some recently-built homes already look dated. 

They are approving high-density commercial projects with no regard for traffic consequences. Think 17-92.

They approve commercial projects without nearly enough parking. I have completely stopped shopping at the Trader Joe's or going to the Shake Shack. I shopped at Trader Joe's almost exclusively for 10+ years elsewhere. I can't handle the parking situation at the WP site anymore.  

In the case of Maitland, they are approving large apartment complexes with no set-backs from major roadways. Even buildings in NYC have set-backs. 

There are so many restaurants (without sufficient demand), they are cannabalizing each other.  The city planners need a moratorium on new restaurants.

I have absolutely no problem with high-density construction.  In an urban setting. WP & Maitland city planners are changing the characters of their towns.  

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2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Ennis Davis over at metrojacksonville.com strikes again with an in-depth look at the Maitland transition:

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2018-feb-rehabilitating-suburbia-maitland

I love the site and his in-depth work on the urban fabric.

Nice tour. I've noticed over the years that metronacksonville  has taken an interest in Orlando urban development and has highlighted the changing nature some areas  like Ivanhoe row. I enjoy seeing their comments; a reminder of the progress the city has made from  an outsiders view.

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On 3/10/2018 at 12:39 PM, I am Reality said:

I really don't understand what Winter Park (and Maitland to a lesser extent) city planners are doing.  

They are stuffing oversized new homes on small plots.

They are encouraging modern architecture over traditional. The new homes will look dated in a few years. Some recently-built homes already look dated. 

They are approving high-density commercial projects with no regard for traffic consequences. Think 17-92.

They approve commercial projects without nearly enough parking. I have completely stopped shopping at the Trader Joe's or going to the Shake Shack. I shopped at Trader Joe's almost exclusively for 10+ years elsewhere. I can't handle the parking situation at the WP site anymore.  

In the case of Maitland, they are approving large apartment complexes with no set-backs from major roadways. Even buildings in NYC have set-backs. 

There are so many restaurants (without sufficient demand), they are cannabalizing each other.  The city planners need a moratorium on new restaurants.

I have absolutely no problem with high-density construction.  In an urban setting. WP & Maitland city planners are changing the characters of their towns.  

For the most part, I don't think city planners typically have too much of a say on the architecture of new homes?

And I don't think there is enough restaurants for the demand, people seem to be enjoying eating out. If its a problem, its the kind that sorts itself out, and its far better to let it do that then ban new restaurants when there is demand for it.

And while traffic and parking is bad, thats what comes with the increased density. Paid parking will encourage more dense lots and the situation encourages more public transit.

When I went to UCF, many, many more people were using the buses to get to campus when I started, and when they added like 5 new parking garages, it didn't mean that there was really more people on campus, or it was any easier to park, people still filled up all the parking spots before being willing to have the inconvenience of the bus. And all it really resulted in was a massive decline in bus ridership and the eventual decreasing of the sizes of the buses and worsening of the bus schedules. There are plenty of areas with ample parking that are less dense if thats what you desire.

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1 hour ago, aent said:

For the most part, I don't think city planners typically have too much of a say on the architecture of new homes?

And I don't think there is enough restaurants for the demand, people seem to be enjoying eating out. If its a problem, its the kind that sorts itself out, and its far better to let it do that then ban new restaurants when there is demand for it.

And while traffic and parking is bad, thats what comes with the increased density. Paid parking will encourage more dense lots and the situation encourages more public transit.

When I went to UCF, many, many more people were using the buses to get to campus when I started, and when they added like 5 new parking garages, it didn't mean that there was really more people on campus, or it was any easier to park, people still filled up all the parking spots before being willing to have the inconvenience of the bus. And all it really resulted in was a massive decline in bus ridership and the eventual decreasing of the sizes of the buses and worsening of the bus schedules. There are plenty of areas with ample parking that are less dense if thats what you desire.

I wasn't being literal when I said there should be a moratorium on restaurants. That can't be done. You are correct...the over abundance of restaurants is already settling itself out.

The size of homes is a common complaint in WP. The houses are too large for the lots and it is getting pretty crowded in spots.

Local ordinances (adopted by city council, not literal "city planners") establish land use  issues. Home design issues are often controlled by ordinance (such as in historical areas).

The parking complaint is a very common one on WP.  There are no paid parking lots away from Park Ave (on 17-92, for instance).  Parking at the WP Village, Trader Joe's, the Shake Shake, and most places on 17-92 is very difficult. People living in WP do not take public transportation around WP.  That's not a realistic option.

My point was that Winter Park is changing its character.  For a wealthy suburb, it has made some interesting decisions. Many people move to WP as an escape.  Parts of it are more crowded than Orlando now.  I am doubtful that was intended.

 

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16 hours ago, I am Reality said:

I wasn't being literal when I said there should be a moratorium on restaurants. That can't be done. You are correct...the over abundance of restaurants is already settling itself out.

The size of homes is a common complaint in WP. The houses are too large for the lots and it is getting pretty crowded in spots.

Local ordinances (adopted by city council, not literal "city planners") establish land use  issues. Home design issues are often controlled by ordinance (such as in historical areas).

The parking complaint is a very common one on WP.  There are no paid parking lots away from Park Ave (on 17-92, for instance).  Parking at the WP Village, Trader Joe's, the Shake Shake, and most places on 17-92 is very difficult. People living in WP do not take public transportation around WP.  That's not a realistic option.

My point was that Winter Park is changing its character.  For a wealthy suburb, it has made some interesting decisions. Many people move to WP as an escape.  Parts of it are more crowded than Orlando now.  I am doubtful that was intended.

 

For me, I would rather see those three big projects in Maitland on 17/92 than either empty lots, abandoned Winn Dixie's, or old mills.  Now, it's going to be civilized...more crowded, but civilized. 

Winter Park hasn't changed too much in it's core; it's the 17/92 corridor which  has seen so much new development lately (which it needed IMO).  Denning has seen some projects recently; what is that, Morse or Canton with newer offices?  I think Canton.  The Alfond and building boom condos nearby and at the north end of Park Ave...

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3 hours ago, jrs2 said:

I sh!t you not...last night, around 8:30pm, at the Blaze Pizza at Lee Rd. & 17/92 next to the LA Fitness, there was a line going out the door just like the one at Diz Springs.  

They were having a Pi Day promotion - $3.14 pizzas.  I went today for lunch, and the line went all the way down the wall to the storefront window.

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All too often, I hear wannabe hipsters droning on about what a cultural desert we supposedly live in. Almost as often, when I ask said hipster if they've visited the Morse Gallery or attended the Bach Festival or seen the Bok Tower, the supposed culture lover stares at me without recognition.

No, not all of our arts organizations are world-class, but we do have our gems.

One of those, the Cornell at Rollins College, has just snagged a display of paintings that will be one of only two stops in the US. Best of all, the Cornell is free! (thanks, Rollins!)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment/arts-and-theater/the-artistic-type/os-et-mjp-cornell-towards-impressionism-20180308-story.html

From Matt Palm at the Sentinel

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  • 3 weeks later...
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On 3/10/2018 at 12:39 PM, I am Reality said:

I really don't understand what Winter Park (and Maitland to a lesser extent) city planners are doing.  

They are stuffing oversized new homes on small plots.

They are encouraging modern architecture over traditional. The new homes will look dated in a few years. Some recently-built homes already look dated. 

They are approving high-density commercial projects with no regard for traffic consequences. Think 17-92.

They approve commercial projects without nearly enough parking. I have completely stopped shopping at the Trader Joe's or going to the Shake Shack. I shopped at Trader Joe's almost exclusively for 10+ years elsewhere. I can't handle the parking situation at the WP site anymore.  

In the case of Maitland, they are approving large apartment complexes with no set-backs from major roadways. Even buildings in NYC have set-backs. 

There are so many restaurants (without sufficient demand), they are cannabalizing each other.  The city planners need a moratorium on new restaurants.

I have absolutely no problem with high-density construction.  In an urban setting. WP & Maitland city planners are changing the characters of their towns.  

I believe the opposite of everything you just said. 

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12 hours ago, jack said:

I believe the opposite of everything you just said. 

Ok.

There is no traffic congestion in 17-92 in Winter Park

There is far too much parking.

The houses are too small for their lots.

Builders are not frequently choosing modern home styles.

And the restaurants are jam packed everyday.

Your positions are pretty interesting. 

 

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25 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Ok.

There is no traffic congestion in 17-92 in Winter Park

There is far too much parking.

The houses are too small for their lots.

Builders are not frequently choosing modern home styles.

And the restaurants are jam packed everyday.

Your positions are pretty interesting. 

 

The way I see it, it's not the observations you are making that are don't have merit rather the actions that you believe the cities should be taking to align better with those observations that is troubling to others. It's NIMBYism rearing its ugly head.

For instance, placing a moratorium on new restaurants. This flies in the face of our capitalist tendencies. If you want to open a restaurant in WP I see no reason why you shouldn't be given that opportunity.

Setbacks in Maitland: give me a break. These buildings are under six floors. Buildings in NYC and Paris do not have setbacks for buildings at that height. Are these new buildings changing the character of Orange Ave? Perhaps. For the better. Not every little stretch of the Orlando metro needs to conform to suburban minded people who need their extra parking spaces. Park across the street and walk a few blocks.

Your opinion regarding homes in WP is simply a matter of taste.  Santa Monica has struggled with mansions on small lots for years. All this really indicates is that one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Orlando continues to be so. 

 

Edited by prahaboheme
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4 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

The way I see it, it's not the observations you are making that are don't have merit rather the actions that you believe the cities should be taking to align better with those observations that is troubling to others. It's NIMBYism rearing its ugly head.

For instance, placing a moratorium on new restaurants. This flies in the face of our capitalist tendencies. If you want to open a restaurant in WP I see no reason why you shouldn't be given that opportunity.

Setbacks in Maitland: give me a break. These buildings are under six floors. Buildings in NYC and Paris do not have setbacks for buildings at that height. Are these new buildings changing the character of Orange Ave? Perhaps. For the better. Not every little stretch of the Orlando metro needs to conform to suburban minded people who need their extra parking spaces. Park across the street and walk a few blocks.

Your opinion regarding homes in WP is simply a matter of taste.  Santa Monica has struggled with mansions on small lots for years. All this really indicates is that one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Orlando continues to be so. 

 

Futhermore, most of the "modern" aesthetic homes going up are custom homes, and the main builder (Phil Kean) is selling them as fast as he can get them out of the ground. 

As far as restaurants go, the good ones are packed. The bad ones, without a specific draw like drink specials or aggressive marketing, fail - but that's not unique to Winter Park.

Edited by smileguy
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27 minutes ago, prahaboheme said:

The way I see it, it's not the observations you are making that are don't have merit rather the actions that you believe the cities should be taking to align better with those observations that is troubling to others. It's NIMBYism rearing its ugly head.

For instance, placing a moratorium on new restaurants. This flies in the face of our capitalist tendencies. If you want to open a restaurant in WP I see no reason why you shouldn't be given that opportunity.

Setbacks in Maitland: give me a break. These buildings are under six floors. Buildings in NYC and Paris do not have setbacks for buildings at that height. Are these new buildings changing the character of Orange Ave? Perhaps. For the better. Not every little stretch of the Orlando metro needs to conform to suburban minded people who need their extra parking spaces. Park across the street and walk a few blocks.

Your opinion regarding homes in WP is simply a matter of taste.  Santa Monica has struggled with mansions on small lots for years. All this really indicates is that one of the most desirable neighborhoods in Orlando continues to be so. 

 

If you have read my subsequent post, I said I wasn't serious about a restaurant moratorium.  It can't be legally done.  

The new developments in Maitland look absolutely ridiculous with no set-backs.  Sorry, but land is dirt-cheap in Maitland compared to other cities.  Either (1) buy a large enough piece of land or (2) revise development plans.   Go taller, if they have too.  But don't force oversized developments on too-small plots of land.  It's not a particularly controversial position. 

Last, why do I have to cross a major, congested street to park?   Do you know how dangerous that is?  If they want to build a pedestrian bridge, that is fine.  But I am not crossing that road with 2 children.  Period.  Parking is a pretty basic thing in the SUBURBAN context.  Winter Park is a suburb.   That's why people (many in WP are much, much older) live there.  I shouldn't have to risk my live crossing a major highway for a freaking burger.  Let's be real here.  It's poor city planning and there is no excuse. 

 

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Winter Park is not a suburb in the traditional sense of the word and over time has continued to move in an urban direction. It was only a matter of time before the 1792 corridor warranted redevelopment in a more urban form. Like it or not, this is the new WP. 

Further, urban development vs suburban actually increases safety, not decreases. Your short term headache crossing the street has huge safety advantages as the corridor rebuilds with an urban form.

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On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:24 PM, aent said:

For the most part, I don't think city planners typically have too much of a say on the architecture of new homes?

And I don't think there is enough restaurants for the demand, people seem to be enjoying eating out. If its a problem, its the kind that sorts itself out, and its far better to let it do that then ban new restaurants when there is demand for it.

And while traffic and parking is bad, thats what comes with the increased density. Paid parking will encourage more dense lots and the situation encourages more public transit.

When I went to UCF, many, many more people were using the buses to get to campus when I started, and when they added like 5 new parking garages, it didn't mean that there was really more people on campus, or it was any easier to park, people still filled up all the parking spots before being willing to have the inconvenience of the bus. And all it really resulted in was a massive decline in bus ridership and the eventual decreasing of the sizes of the buses and worsening of the bus schedules. There are plenty of areas with ample parking that are less dense if thats what you desire.

With today's announcement, the latest restaurants on 17-92 that have recently closed:

Rubio's

Mitchell's Fish House

Zona Fresca

TR Fire Grill

Carmel 

Italio

 

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I actually agree with IAR here.

The Park Ave and Hannibal Square portions of Winter Park?  Hate that they aren't Orlando, but otherwise love them.  The 17/92 / WPV / whatever the Trader Joe's monstrosity is named / Rauvadauge?  It's a nightmare.  Traffic doesn't flow, there isn't enough parking, and yet they keep adding more.  I go out of my way to avoid that area of town unless I'm on my bike.  And biking up Orlando Ave gets worse every year.  You'd hope with the bike shop on it that they'd make it a decent priority but ehhh

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40 minutes ago, sunshine said:

LOL... seems like you two are more fit for like Avalon Park or Winter Garden...

Not entirely sure what that means.  Winter Garden really only has one strip of retail and they recently added a garage to help with parking demands, nothing remotely similar to the 17/92 corridor.  Never been to Avalon, so can't comment on it.

Maybe I'm unaware of them, but from Fairbanks to Lee, there's only one apartment complex, to go along with those older quasi-lakefront condos.  This isn't an urban work/live/play area.  This is, in essence, a suburban town center plopped down a mile from Park Ave.  That requires good traffic movement and adequate parking.  It has neither.

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I have to chuckle. We keep having folks tell us we need to be more like Atlanta or Nashville but Buckhead and Green Hills/Hillsboro Village have been traffic nightmares much longer than WP. All 3 have a US highway going right through the middle. I get so confused with what we want now.

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