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orulz

"Smokey Hollow" - Kane's Second Downtown Project

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The N&O is reporting that Kane has purchased the Southland Ballroom, a 1.24 acre sight at the place where Harrington bends west towards Peace. This is a spot featured prominently in the city's recent downtown "Experience" plan. Nice to see Kane looking to downtown again, hopefully Dillon gets out of the ground quickly and this can move forward too.

I hope he and the city would consider trading the right-of-way where Harrington bends towards West for a right-of-way through this site to stitch the two pieces of Johnson Street together.

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It wouldn't quite align the two portions, unless it proceeds slightly west-northwest from Harrington. Even if its kept only inline with the easternmost segment, that'd reduce it from three disconnected-but-almost-aligned segments of east-west street, down to two. This purchase really shows that Kane knows whats going on downtown...this corner of the downtown area is getting the streetscape improvements and interchange realignment for Peace along with the the rehabbed lighting building (who is taking that space again?) across the street, a ground lease being marketed at the State's personnel development center site, and hopefully some well designed apartments at some point on the West I and II sites. From the leasing agent who commented over at Raleigh Connoisseur, Link Apartments are leasing up faster than Lincoln and Elan, so this area has a desireability and associated potential to be a well rounded and thriving urban district. As an aside, I still say the first full grocery store will end up over here...

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2 hours ago, orulz said:

The N&O is reporting that Kane has purchased the Southland Ballroom, a 1.24 acre sight at the place where Harrington bends west towards Peace. This is a spot featured prominently in the city's recent downtown "Experience" plan. Nice to see Kane looking to downtown again, hopefully Dillon gets out of the ground quickly and this can move forward too.

I hope he and the city would consider trading the right-of-way where Harrington bends towards West for a right-of-way through this site to stitch the two pieces of Johnson Street together.

Seems like music clubs are public enemy #1 in downtown Raleigh.

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I've sensed it coming for quite a while and have in my head a viable alternate spot for clubs....the row of car repair places on South Saunders between Ray Price and South Street seemed like it was situated right where virtually nobody could complain about noise, yet is cozied right up next to downtown in an otherwise forgotten corner. Just an aside. 

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3 hours ago, orulz said:

The N&O is reporting that Kane has purchased the Southland Ballroom, a 1.24 acre sight at the place where Harrington bends west towards Peace. This is a spot featured prominently in the city's recent downtown "Experience" plan. Nice to see Kane looking to downtown again, hopefully Dillon gets out of the ground quickly and this can move forward too.

I hope he and the city would consider trading the right-of-way where Harrington bends towards West for a right-of-way through this site to stitch the two pieces of Johnson Street together.

It looks like there already is a right of way heading west from Harrington that aligns with Johnson(if I understand the DOT map for the interchange project correctly). Its just an alley, due south of Southland, now but the City could just sell Kane the curve and put in a street extension on that ROW anytime it wants I guess...?

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The plot thickens... www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/real-estate/2016/02/kane-williams-downtown-raleigh-smokey-hollow.html

Members of the partnership group own almost 2.5 acres directly north across N. Harrington.  But not the comedy or camera shop buildings.

Attaching the latest Capital Blvd- Peace intersection realignment (if it works).  And then in the 2nd image, the properties are highlighted areas in purple.

Capital Blvd Peace realignment.jpg

smokey hollow.jpg

Edited by Green_man
Added 2nd photo.

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I think they really had ought to make Johnson a contiguous street all the way to Glenwood if they can, since this will be the way to get to the area from Capital Boulevard.

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Thanks Green_Man. Good stuff right there. Give John Kane four acres and who knows what might get built. The man is on a roll that's for sure. Glad someone has taken the lead and is getting things moving! A nice development coming into DT from the north would be fantastic. 

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With the new Capital-Peace interchange, West Johnson is actually being shifted North and more in line with W. Johnson in Glenwood South...  I wonder if Kane and his partners would be receptive to a land swap to allow for the connection.  I would think it would make it easier on them to have one contiguous plot to develop.  It would likely leave room for a pocket park on the south side of the new road, maybe with some public art opportunities.

west johnson st aligned.jpg

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I couldn't agree more. My very rudimentary measurements on Imaps show that the land used for a Johnson Street connection plus the pocket park would be roughly 2/3 acre and the land gained from swapping the Harrington dogleg would be about 1/2 acre, so that leaves them with 1/6 acre less land  - but it would make the land would be contiguous and therefore more valuable, plus they would gain public good will for dedicating some public space, and could probably use this as leverage to get a rezoning and approval for taller buildings. Besides, the Downtown Plan actually calls for a plaza and some open space this exact spot.

I also hope that whenever the West Apartments I and II are developed, they can punch Tucker through to Harrington as well or at least have some public passageway between the two streets.

 

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The pocket park could/should involve daylighting Pigeon House branch which starts its northward turn right after it passes under West Street. I am pretty sure it goes under the rear of Southland and then splits the carwash and oil change place on Peace. What a win-win-win situation this could be...

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28 minutes ago, Jones_ said:

The pocket park could/should involve daylighting Pigeon House branch which starts its northward turn right after it passes under West Street. I am pretty sure it goes under the rear of Southland and then splits the carwash and oil change place on Peace. What a win-win-win situation this could be...

Yea, you read my mind!  And a daylit canal along Harrington St lined with retail spaces.  Bridges could span over the creek to connect each space to the sidewalk...  If I may illustrate with another terrible paint job...

And you can see what a canal might look like if you look behind the Tucker, or Devon 7 Twelve as they call it now?

smokey hollow idea.jpg

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I'm completely on board with making the creek a central feature of a park at Devereaux Meadows, but I think daylighting Pigeon House Branch south of Peace is a pipe dream (pun intended, haha) and not worth the expense. We just need to come to terms with the fact that Raleigh's geography means we will never have a real urban riverwalk, So let's make the best of what we do have and try too hard to force it on this one.

  • This would certainly cost well into the 8 figure range
  • You'd get at most 1000' of newly daylighted creek before you run into the back of 510 Glenwood.
  • Even at that, a lot of it would have to be covered right back up where streets cross the channel, with culverts (cheap, but not really daylighting), or bridges (mega expensive)
  • This couldn't possibly have enough impact on water quality in order to justify such an exhorbitant cost. (when there's so much impervious surface around anyway.)
  • Glenwood South is enough of a district in its own right already, it doesn't need a riverwalk as a draw.
  • It would be better for the city's streetscape of Raleigh if businesses would just face the sidewalk rather than a tiny disconnected half-assed attempt at a riverwalk thing.

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My take is that Peace can and should be raised high enough to extend the future greenway under Peace. Based on my eyeball look at it, it would require no change to the Capital Blvd bridge elevation since the creek bottom is already like 10 feet below Peace. Also in order to build any building here, the entire culvert will need to be replaced anyway so that cost is being borne by the developer anyway. The City can likely secure some Federal stormwater money from somewhere if they wanted to help this along. While I am a huge fan of proper urban streetscapes, I am not sure the realigned Harrington/Capital off ramp, will beget a non-terrible urban experience when facing it. I would suggest  properly graded stream cut with benches (not the sitting kind, the stream kind), bmps as needed at the top of the channel and face your cafes, and patios onto that. The Greenway would come up a ramp or steps onto West, and connect the bike lane that goes all the way to Dix as shown in the new Downtown plan. 

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Adding a photo of a daylit creek in Yonkers, NY to show that its doable in a tight urban setting.  But for as 'innovative' as Raleigh says/thinks it is, it has yet to translate to the urban planning/development field, so, yea I doubt they pursue something like this.

yonkers creek.jpg

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Anybody else seeing the rumors of Publix being a part of Kane's Smokey Hollow project?  The properties are zoned DX-12 & DX-12-SH so hopefully it won't just be a 1-story store.  Kane built the only other urban grocery store in the city at North Hills, so hopefully he uses that model as the minimum for Glenwood South.

This location would still be quite a trek for Fayetteville and Moore Square districts so hopefully they'll get their own grocery store once the population expands more in that direction.  Stone's Warehouse renovation might be a decent start though.

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Yeah I've seen that in a spot of two. Not surprised this is the area that gets a store first (if it does). It's got the highest concentration of apartments and condos in the downtown area. I've been suggesting the West and Harrington area is the best/most likely place for one for a while now. If I were a betting man, I'd think the east side doens't get much beyond Taz and Stones for a good ten years anyway. 

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Certainly looks like they are maxing out the DX12 zoning category here. If it had been allowed as-of-right they almost certainly would have gone taller, though maybe no more dense.

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I'm just not a fan of the bulk. It's unfortunate that that is the standard right now in order to create density.  It would have been great to see three different buildings, which it kind of looks like, at varying heights.  But, I am ok with this development.  It'll be a great transition piece in development towards downtown coming from Capital Blvd.  And the possibility of a grocery store is pretty clutch. 

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WTVD or 11 news abc actually confirmed with Williams Reality that Publix is coming not a might, but in Business I know things can change quickly it was reported by Reporter DeJuan Hoggard yesterday on t.v.

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