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8 minutes ago, BFG said:

Even though we supposedly grow at a smaller pace, it's not the end of the world. Bringing in jobs and not depending as heavily on the military is very important, and the leaders now see that. The HREDA (HR Economic Development Alliance) added a new president this year, and he helped bring thousands of jobs to areas like Phoenix, Raleigh and most recently Orlando. It'll be very interesting to see his vision for the area roll out.

I think with downtown Norfolk having a major renaissance, the biotech labs and fiberoptic connections to Spain coming to VB and more upscale construction at the strip, you'll see the growth this area needs. Those are all attractive amenities. I've said this before, but this will be a different Hampton Roads by 2020 or '25. I think a lot of the potential we've seen in the past will finally come to fruition.

I'm very anxious (if not impatient) about the future, but I think we'll see the payoff in the next few years.

I hope so. :tw_grin: I'm relocating here from Columbia where growth was stifled at every corner socially. People just didn't embrace change at all and wanted everything exactly the same. 

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Even though we supposedly grow at a smaller pace, it's not the end of the world. Bringing in jobs and not depending as heavily on the military is very important, and the leaders now see that. The HRED

According to the mayor, this is a once in a generation boom coming to Norfolk. Now you have thousands of new skilled labor coming into the city, so 1,600 new units are not going to cut it. You need to

It would be pretty cool to see a couple 20 story apartment towers by Waterside.  

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1 hour ago, NFKjeff said:

Richmond's MSA is not growing at a rate which is anywhere close to 3 times as fast as Hampton Roads. Not even close to twice as fast. I looked at many different studies and could find nothing close to that. A study by NAI shows population growth projections of MSA's through 2030. While Richmond's is projected to add 852,159 residents by 2030, Hampton Roass is projected to add 749,353 over the same time span.

 

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Being a Richmonder, I absolutely love these numbers. If the population growth that they are projecting is accurate, Richmond and Hampton roads could be sitting at 2 million and 2.5 million by 2030. That would be absolutely great for both metros and Virginia as a whole. As for the whole housing or jobs first issue, housing should definantely come first. If companies see that there is housing being built for employees that could be relocated to the region, the more reluctant they will be to move there. I do believe that Norfolk should follow Richmonds lead and keep building apartments while continuing to attract companies to the region. That is how Richmond is filling the  huge amount of space that has plagued downtown. If Norfolk can keep building apartments and attracting companies to the region, then Norfolk will see an major high rise building boom.

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14 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

Richmond's MSA is not growing at a rate which is anywhere close to 3 times as fast as Hampton Roads. Not even close to twice as fast. I looked at many different studies and could find nothing close to that. A study by NAI shows population growth projections of MSA's through 2030. While Richmond's is projected to add 852,159 residents by 2030, Hampton Roass is projected to add 749,353 over the same time span.

 

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Wow, I'm actually surprised to see us so high up the list. I hope that growth rate pans out. 

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13 hours ago, blopp1234 said:

Being a Richmonder, I absolutely love these numbers. If the population growth that they are projecting is accurate, Richmond and Hampton roads could be sitting at 2 million and 2.5 million by 2030. That would be absolutely great for both metros and Virginia as a whole. As for the whole housing or jobs first issue, housing should definantely come first. If companies see that there is housing being built for employees that could be relocated to the region, the more reluctant they will be to move there. I do believe that Norfolk should follow Richmonds lead and keep building apartments while continuing to attract companies to the region. That is how Richmond is filling the  huge amount of space that has plagued downtown. If Norfolk can keep building apartments and attracting companies to the region, then Norfolk will see an major high rise building boom.

Build it and they will come is a dangerous philosophy sometimes.  An overbuilt housing market can have the opposite effect of what you seek. There is a sort of equilibrium that needs to exist between housing and jobs, usually a few months worth of inventory I believe.  Much beyond that and the words "bubble" and "crash" start to appear.

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21 hours ago, vdogg said:

Build it and they will come is a dangerous philosophy sometimes.  An overbuilt housing market can have the opposite effect of what you seek. There is a sort of equilibrium that needs to exist between housing and jobs, usually a few months worth of inventory I believe.  Much beyond that and the words "bubble" and "crash" start to appear.

No doubt, but i think the market needs new inventory. Apartment vacancy rates are extremely low for this area meaning rents skyrocket. Skyrocketing rents mean more people can't afford it meaning less migration into the city. Why relocate a company to a mid-size city with equal cost of living to a major city? In the end, there will have to be more housing. I think the mayor said that in a interview, just the council who hasn't gotten the message apparently. They city is at a critical juncture of growth and how they manage the growth will determine the future of the city. 

Edited by mpretori
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I see this as a sort-of protection (by the Council) of Marathon Developments investment in downtown. Buddy has done wonders for downtown and I get the sense they (Council) want all his (current) projects to come to fruition before green-lighting another developer to develop competing uses in the market.

 

No doubt there will be a new residential tower along the waterfront. Once Buddy has had time for the market to absorb his inventory I see another developer being allowed to develop or Buddy building one. I can't imagine he has given up on the Granby Tower concept, albeit in another location on a slightly-less grand scale.

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31 minutes ago, mpretori said:

No doubt, but i think the market needs new inventory. Apartment vacancy rates are extremely low for this area meaning rents skyrocket. Skyrocketing rents mean more people can't afford it meaning less migration into the city. Why relocate a company to a mid-size city with equal cost of living to a major city? In the end, there will have to be more housing. I think the mayor said that in a interview, just the council who hasn't gotten the message apparently. They city is at a critical juncture of growth and how they manage the growth will determine the future of the city. 

I'm not sure what the current apartment vacancy rate is in downtown Norfolk. I do think that what is happening in the downtown apartment market is being done in the correct order. Right now there are over 1,600 new apartment units either under construction, or planned in downtown (including the Monticello - 21st. St., and Fort Norfolk areas) which have yet to come on line; of those 485 are located in existing buildings which are being renovated. I think it is important to have these buildings renovated and occupied before too much new stock is put on the market. Many of these buildings are well suited to apartments, but not much else, and this way they are preserved, added to the tax base, and increase both downtown population and apartment stock.

With the recent announcement of the old 13 story Royster Building on Granby St. being converted into a boutique hotel, and the Savoy Bldg. into apartments most of the existing old buildings have been, or are under way to being renovated and converted into apartments. I believe the downtown apartment vacancy rate will soon go up, but hopefully those will soon be absorbed.

At that point downtown Norfolk will be ready to see even more new apartment projects.

As for attracting offices downtown there is much more to the equation than just the availability of apartments. Among other issues, public education quality has to be improved, there has to be more venture capital available, and for goodness sake there has to be a big improvement in air travel to and from the region.

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In reading this conversation about housing, I can't help but think that many of you only believe that people want to live in apartments or condos towers.  There's an entire city and region of single family homes with yards, garages, and a sense of space and a bit of privacy between them and their neighbors that many people enjoy as well.  How many of those homes are out there on the market?

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Different strokes for different folks. The ideas that entice you about a single family home are the exact reasons why some want to live in a large downtown apartment building. Build it and let the market decide.  

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Cordish wants this apartment bldg quite badly, and they are pushing extraordinarily hard behind-the-scenes...even contacting people here locally who they think might have influence on City Council. They are absolutely determined. They believe that we are underserved in the true luxury apt sector and feel confident that there is a lot of $$ to be made.  Cordish sees this deal as a ceiling-smasher:  record rents, unparalleled amenities and potentially unprecedented physical dimensions. Additionally, they envision doing even more projects after the first tower.

Unfortunately...even though Council has been refreshed with four new members, it would appear is if the long-standing, informal prohibition on residential and office development along the waterfront will remain. For now.

Edited by baobabs727
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4 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

As for attracting offices downtown there is much more to the equation than just the availability of apartments. Among other issues, public education quality has to be improved, there has to be more venture capital available, and for goodness sake there has to be a big improvement in air travel to and from the region.

 

 

This is one of my top 5 concerns. It's going to be hard to market Norfolk as an up and coming city with that tiny airport. And they're restricted, so expansion is going to be tough. 

I was in Dallas this month; I flew into Love Field and flew out of massive DFW. I don't expect us to ever reach the latter's size, but something like Love Field should be attainable. 

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12 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

I'm not sure what the current apartment vacancy rate is in downtown Norfolk. I do think that what is happening in the downtown apartment market is being done in the correct order. Right now there are over 1,600 new apartment units either under construction, or planned in downtown (including the Monticello - 21st. St., and Fort Norfolk areas) which have yet to come on line; of those 485 are located in existing buildings which are being renovated. I think it is important to have these buildings renovated and occupied before too much new stock is put on the market. Many of these buildings are well suited to apartments, but not much else, and this way they are preserved, added to the tax base, and increase both downtown population and apartment stock.

With the recent announcement of the old 13 story Royster Building on Granby St. being converted into a boutique hotel, and the Savoy Bldg. into apartments most of the existing old buildings have been, or are under way to being renovated and converted into apartments. I believe the downtown apartment vacancy rate will soon go up, but hopefully those will soon be absorbed.

At that point downtown Norfolk will be ready to see even more new apartment projects.

As for attracting offices downtown there is much more to the equation than just the availability of apartments. Among other issues, public education quality has to be improved, there has to be more venture capital available, and for goodness sake there has to be a big improvement in air travel to and from the region.

 

 

According to the mayor, this is a once in a generation boom coming to Norfolk. Now you have thousands of new skilled labor coming into the city, so 1,600 new units are not going to cut it. You need towers and major mixed use developments. Norfolk needs to realize this or cities like Chesapeake or Virginia Beach will build and reap the tax benefits rather than Norfolk. 

 

8 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Cordish wants this apartment bldg quite badly, and they are pushing extraordinarily hard behind-the-scenes...even contacting people here locally who they think might have influence on City Council. They are absolutely determined. They believe that we are underserved in the true luxury apt sector and feel confident that there is a lot of $$ to be made.  Cordish sees this deal as a ceiling-smasher:  record rents, unparalleled amenities and potentially unprecedented physical dimensions. Additionally, they envision doing even more projects after the first tower.

Unfortunately...even though Council has been refreshed with four new members, it would appear is if the long-standing, informal prohibition on residential and office development along the waterfront will remain. For now.

You have a private developer who is desperate enough to get a tower built, this should tell everybody about the demand. If this developer gets blown off, this will set a nasty president for Norfolk. 

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I think this Cordish tower should get built, we are in an apt boon right now in the city and I think we need more developers than just Buddy involved in it. Having these units will I believe help Norfolk attract more developers and businesses. With that however Norfolk needs to better a lot of other sectors as well, including education, crime rates, and infrastructure.

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  • 4 years later...
On 8/26/2016 at 2:35 PM, baobabs727 said:

Cordish wants this apartment bldg quite badly, and they are pushing extraordinarily hard behind-the-scenes...even contacting people here locally who they think might have influence on City Council. They are absolutely determined. They believe that we are underserved in the true luxury apt sector and feel confident that there is a lot of $$ to be made.  Cordish sees this deal as a ceiling-smasher:  record rents, unparalleled amenities and potentially unprecedented physical dimensions. Additionally, they envision doing even more projects after the first tower.

Unfortunately...even though Council has been refreshed with four new members, it would appear is if the long-standing, informal prohibition on residential and office development along the waterfront will remain. For now.

When I was speaking with Zed Smith around the time this thread was hot, he was telling me things I couldn’t really reveal at the time... but suffice it to say that they wanted to build something ...tall....and not just one. I hear there’s a renewed movement afoot to push this thing again, and I don’t know what’s going to happen, but last time around I told him that with those four new members on Council he was going to have a very difficult time if it.  Sad but true.  

Here are some random and not so great pictures of Cordish’s Kansas City towers.

Envious, anyone? 

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4F21C549-0D53-428C-9233-F0F78EED2371.jpeg

9C050E3E-0ADE-4957-AF24-D1CFB0A88B20.jpeg

Edited by baobabs727
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Meh, looks like any other cookie-cutter generic "urban" development. Norfolk can do better. These would be great in Virginia Beach but Norfolk should have much better design, site activation and height in the 40 to 60 floor range, especially on the only prime piece of real estate left in downtown. Just my opinion of course.

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8 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Meh, looks like any other cookie-cutter generic "urban" development. Norfolk can do better. These would be great in Virginia Beach but Norfolk should have much better design, site activation and height in the 40 to 60 floor range, especially on the only prime piece of real estate left in downtown. Just my opinion of course.

Lol. Ok. Your point might be valid for another city, like Charlotte or Raleigh, but not for Norfolk. Norfolk hasn’t done half this well. Ever. You’d actually have to have a comparable cookie here with which to compare this design to make this “cookie cutter.” 

Buddy couldn’t get it done, though not entirely his fault, and his design was very stodgy and conservative compared to this.  

So you’re telling me that you like that revised (apparently) gateway tower better than this? Actually you seem to like that and dislike this? Astonishing lol. That thing is a stubby, hospital-like abomination surrounded by a wall.  However, One Light is pretty sleek. Ymmv. 

Edited by baobabs727
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Two Light reminds me a little of the new Cavalier Marriott at the Beach. A little bulky, but I'd still love to have that downtown, either on the water, the old Granby Tower site, or on the Gateway. As for the rumors of it being revived, could this be the city's peace offering to stop Cordish from suing over not getting a casino?

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If they built a tower, would it go on the lot where the Ferris wheel and outdoor concerts were held?

This probably won’t be a popular opinion but I’d rather have the concerts as their setup was pretty great and about the only reason for me to even go to Waterside (terrible service and bad food).

Edited by BeagleAccountant
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15 minutes ago, BeagleAccountant said:

If they built a tower, would it go on the lot where the Ferris wheel and outdoor concerts were held?

This probably won’t be a popular opinion but I’d rather have the concerts as their setup was pretty great and about the only reason for me to even go to Waterside (terrible service and bad food).

Yes, that’s the main reason why they had the annex destroyed. Or actually because they claimed they could not program it, which I believe. They can’t even program the whole of waterside as it stands lol. 

The main stage is in the back on the water. They don’t need that side parking lot area for concerts, etc. 

44 minutes ago, BFG said:

Two Light reminds me a little of the new Cavalier Marriott at the Beach. A little bulky, but I'd still love to have that downtown, either on the water, the old Granby Tower site, or on the Gateway. As for the rumors of it being revived, could this be the city's peace offering to stop Cordish from suing over not getting a casino?

From my discussions with Zed Smith, they were aiming for something slimmer and taller.  As to the  lawsuit, I have no idea.  That’s not a bad theory though.  

Edited by baobabs727
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15 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Lol. Ok. Your point might be valid for another city, like Charlotte or Raleigh, but not for Norfolk. Norfolk hasn’t done half this well. Ever. You’d actually have to have a comparable cookie here with which to compare this design to make this “cookie cutter.” 

Buddy couldn’t get it done, though not entirely his fault, and his design was very stodgy and conservative compared to this.  

So you’re telling me that you like that revised (apparently) gateway tower better than this? Actually you seem to like that and dislike this? Astonishing lol. That thing is a stubby, hospital-like abomination surrounded by a wall.  However, One Light is pretty sleek. Ymmv. 

Lighten up Babs. I was just poking fun. I would love a tower at Waterside similar to the one you referenced.

 

And yes, I do like the Gateway tower in it's most recent render. I know you don't like it and that's OK. I like it and I can live with it.

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18 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Yes, that’s the main reason why they had the annex destroyed. Or actually because they claimed they could not program it, which I believe. They can’t even program the whole of waterside as it stands lol. 

The main stage is in the back on the water. They don’t need that side parking lot area for concerts, etc. 

I understand the desire to add a residential aspect to waterside for cordish. It makes business sense. But my opinion isn’t based on their busines needs. It’s based on my experience seeing concerts in both spaces. The parking lot was superior. And I’ll readily admit that it’s a purely self serving viewpoint.

Edited by BeagleAccountant
Grammar
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