NC Teacher Salaries

[caterpillar2]

When I moved here in 2008, I considered continuing my profession as a teacher. The problem was that teachers were beginning to be laid off in huge numbers. Governor Purdue announced many times over the next couple of years that 500 or more teachers would be laid off. It was a mess.  Our present Senate has proposed pay raises over the next two years that will dramatically increase average teacher pay from $47,783 to $54,224 per year. This is on top of the $4,700 in normal pay raises that will be received during the 2016-2018 period. Another words, this is a pay raise of almost $10,000 or 20 percent since the 2013-2014 school year.

Under this proposal, N.C, will climb 23 spots to 24th in the nation and number one in the southeast. Under the old party, it took a teacher 33 years to reach a salary of $50K.  Under this proposal, it will only take 15. As a former teacher, I applaud Raleigh for this critical move. It will benefit everyone if enacted which will likely happen. A huge step forward.

[deleted]

This does feel noteworthy and like good news (though I suspect some may suggest it's still not enough).  I wonder if past efforts to increase pay initiated by Democrats were stymied by Republican opposition?  That said, without knowing the details this feels like progress.

[Deleted.]

Why have you posted that in the Good News thread? No article, just a general comment that is more suited for the Off Topic thread not here. 

Just seems like you are trying to booster support for the Republican-led NCGA to try and turn attention from HB2. 

[ES Charlotte]

25 minutes ago, Piedmont767 said:

Why have you posted that in the Good News thread? No article, just a general comment that is more suited for the Off Topic thread not here. 

Just seems like you are trying to booster support for the Republican-led NCGA to try and turn attention from HB2. 

Let me google that for you - http://wncn.com/2016/05/25/nc-senate-leaders-to-unveil-teacher-pay-plan-today/

Would you consider this bad news?

[BuzzCity]

44 minutes ago, Piedmont767 said:

Why have you posted that in the Good News thread? No article, just a general comment that is more suited for the Off Topic thread not here. 

Just seems like you are trying to booster support for the Republican-led NCGA to try and turn attention from HB2. 

We aren't even focusing on the negative effects of HB2 in this thread, so I'm not sure why you brought this opinion of yours up. This is good news for teachers in North Carolina with the raises that would take effect, and it has nothing to do with bolstering support for the NCGA. I'm starting to get tired with all the negativity in these threads when people are just trying to share important information.

[grodney]

" Under the old party " was completely unnecessary and trollish at best.  It turned a Good News post into political junk.  Save it for the Coffee House, please ---- as the Mods have asked several times already.

 

[Deleted.]

10 minutes ago, grodney said:

" Under the old party " was completely unnecessary and trollish at best.  It turned a Good News post into political junk.  Save it for the Coffee House, please ---- as the Mods have asked several times already.

 

Thats what I was getting at!! Thank you!!

[urbanlover568]

Might be a bit OT. Really wouldn't think CLT is in a downturn by looking at uptown right now. Amazing progress. HB2 on google trends is down, so that's a very good sign . 

[jednc]

7 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

When I moved here in 2008, I considered continuing my profession as a teacher. The problem was that teachers were beginning to be laid off in huge numbers. Governor Purdue announced many times over the next couple of years that 500 or more teachers would be laid off. It was a mess.  Our present Senate has proposed pay raises over the next two years that will dramatically increase average teacher pay from $47,783 to $54,224 per year. This is on top of the $4,700 in normal pay raises that will be received during the 2016-2018 period. Another words, this is a pay raise of almost $10,000 or 20 percent since the 2013-2014 school year.

Under this proposal, N.C, will climb 23 spots to 24th in the nation and number one in the southeast. Under the old party, it took a teacher 33 years to reach a salary of $50K.  Under this proposal, it will only take 15. As a former teacher, I applaud Raleigh for this critical move. It will benefit everyone if enacted which will likely happen. A huge step forward.

I would like to respond to this "good news"and I do plan to address politics as I really can't imagine how you could discuss this without being political. First things first...I am a NC teacher right now; today. Not eight or nine years ago and in another state. I'm just completing my twentieth year, so I've been through several governors and general assemblies while teaching. I am also a registered Republican, who votes for the most qualified candidate running. Period.

I hated the education cuts made in 2008. I kept my job, but I knew those who didn't. I personally thought education should have been spared, but the recession was bad and I could live with the idea that we all had to  deal with the realities. By 2009, the recession was over by definition. I wanted the step increase I should have gotten with another year's experience, but it was clear it wasn't going to happen. Salaries were frozen. That wouldn't have been a raise by the way, simply an increase for me because I had another year's experience. The same thing happened in 2010. No increase in step, certainly no raise. By this point I was getting frustrated with Purdue and the general assembly. They are not blameless, but considering the financial situation they were dealing with it's not completely out of the question how things were done.

At this point let me remind you that during the 2010 election the Republicans took over in the general assembly.

My memory doesn't allow for me to say what changes came each year since then but I can give you an aggregate. Since 2011 the general assembly has given me two small raises. They each were between 1 and 2% but closer to 1%(or about $60/) . At this same time they tried to change pay so that it was not based on experience but on effectiveness. I know that to most people effectiveness sounds like a reasonable measure. They like to say things like "in the business world my raises are absolutely based on my performance". The biggest problem with that analogy is that teachers can't observe an inferior product and cast it aside only allowing the best products to reach the store. We have to educate every child and we have to meet them where they are when they come to us. I won't to go down this rabbit hole, but it's important to remember that what works in the business world does not work in public education.

Now, other teachers did get bigger raises at least one of the times I received a small raise. They intentionally targeted beginning teachers and raised their salaries. This did little to nothing for anyone teaching more than 5 years. I work with a man who makes less after 8 years then some teachers do after 3 years. That is ridiculous. This same general assembly also tried to remove career status from teachers. This is what some like to call tenure, but it is not tenure by its standard definition. When a public school teacher has tenure it simply means there has to be a reason for them to be fired. Effectiveness, and the ability to do a good job, are certainly reasons. Our general assembly did their best to make the public believe that was not true. I promise you that during any year I've taught if I did anything that waranted me being fired, it could have, and I assume would have, happened. I have worked with people who have been fired. Last year's raises were a slap in the face to veteran teachers. The general assembly simply realized they had created such a hostile environment for teachers that they were looking at a shortfall of catastrophic proportions. Hence the big bump in starting salaries.

To be fair both the governor and the house have proposed pay raises for this coming year that target teachers with more than 5 years experience. That is definitely a step in the right direction. However, I can't help but feel it is election year politics. I will happily take any raise they give me but it is too little too late.

As for the Senate plan, they have not released details of the plan to my knowledge (which begs the question of where all the numbers are coming from in the above post).

I will tell you that reading between the lines I already see some red flags. For one thing, anytime they talk about an average % pay raise it absolutely means some will receive more than the average and some less. Teachers lower on the pay scale will receive the higher percentage raise while teachers at the upper end will receive the lower percentage raise. For example teachers with more than 30 years experience received a .3% increase last year even though the NCGA touted an "average" 5% raise. At .3% I would rather make the grand gesture of throwing it on the floor of the legislature then to accept that insult in my paycheck. The Senate has said they want teachers to reach the maximum on the pay scale at 15 years instead of 25. What I believe that means is that no one will receive a raise after 15 years of teaching. Can anyone, Republican or Democrat, look me in the eye and tell me they think that it is fair for my last raise that I receive in my career will be this year even though I plan to teach for another decade?

From inside a public school it feels like the general assembly has declared war on education. They also are including local supplements in their math. Why should what my county pays from local taxes be counted in any percentage raise numbers the state says they will give? Of course the answer is by including local supplements, which they have nothing to do with, it inflates their numbers and provides talking points for the pro Republican voter base. It also supplies people ignorant on the matter ammunition to use against any argument that teachers don't receive enough money. The deception is revolting.

And please don't tell me this doesn't belong here. I'm responding to someone else's post which was put HERE. Any moderator feel free to move the entire conversation to the appropriate place. But I can't respond in some other place when the comment I'm responding to is here.

I've proof read this thing as best I can.  Forgive any mistakes I missed. Crazy-eyed rant now over.

[skymiler]

7 hours ago, grodney said:

" Under the old party " was completely unnecessary and trollish at best.  It turned a Good News post into political junk.  Save it for the Coffee House, please ---- as the Mods have asked several times already.

LOL, literally ever thread I click on has someone bashing the GOP.  Reminds me of all those paid rioters trying to stifle Trump rallies. 

 

[GeauxCLT]

2 hours ago, jednc said:

I hated the education cuts made in 2008. I kept my job, but I knew those who didn't. I personally thought education should have been spared, but the recession was bad and I could live with the idea that we all had to  deal with the realities. By 2009, the recession was over...

At this point let me remind you that during the 2010 election the Republicans took over in the general assembly.

My memory doesn't allow for me to say what changes came each year since then but I can give you an aggregate. Since 2011 the general assembly has given me two small raises. They each were between 1 and 2% but closer to 1%(or about $60/) . At this same time they tried to change pay so that it was not based on experience but on effectiveness. I know that to most people effectiveness sounds like a reasonable measure. They like to say things like "in the business world my raises are absolutely based on my performance". The biggest problem with that analogy is that teachers can't observe an inferior product and cast it aside only allowing the best products to reach the store. We have to educate every child and we have to meet them where they are when they come to us. I won't to go down this rabbit hole, but it's important to remember that what works in the business world does not work in public education...

 I can't help but feel it is election year politics. I will happily take any raise they give me but it is too little too late...

anytime they talk about an average % pay raise it absolutely means some will receive more than the average and some less. Teachers lower on the pay scale will receive the higher percentage raise while teachers at the upper end will receive the lower percentage raise. For example teachers with more than 30 years experience received a .3% increase last year even though the NCGA touted an "average" 5% raise. At .3% I would rather make the grand gesture of throwing it on the floor of the legislature then to accept that insult in my paycheck. The Senate has said they want teachers to reach the maximum on the pay scale at 15 years instead of 25. What I believe.

Welcome to the real world. There are very respected and published tenured professors (even department heads) at respected research universities that make less than first year professors. I worked for a public accounting firm for four years during the recession and did not get a raise or bonus. If you aren't happy, make a change. I did.  If you don't have the skill set to convince someone else to hire you, the market is paying you the correct amount or more. 

 

I believe k-12 public school teachers are under paid, but no one is going to command more pay than the teachers themselves. The recession was tough. Supply and demand works in tough times. The state is trying to make it better now that they can afford to and you are complaining. Give me a break. 

[jednc]

30 minutes ago, GeauxCLT said:

Welcome to the real world. There are very respected and published tenured professors (even department heads) at respected research universities that make less than first year professors. I worked for a public accounting firm for four years during the recession and did not get a raise or bonus. If you aren't happy, make a change. I did.  If you don't have the skill set to convince someone else to hire you, the market is paying you the correct amount or more. 

 

I believe k-12 public school teachers are under paid, but no one is going to command more pay than the teachers themselves. The recession was tough. Supply and demand works in tough times. The state is trying to make it better now that they can afford to and you are complaining. Give me a break. 

 

 

 

Supply and demand...the hallmark argument of the "I took 9th-grade civics and I think I understand the economy". You give me a break. Come back when you understand anything about employment in the government sector.

[GeauxCLT]

I'm an economics major with a masters degree. I also worked for the government for six years. If you don't want to work for the government, go work for someone else. You're not handcuffed to your job. If you like your job and wish you got paid more, don't we all. Supply and demand works. You agreed to a salary and took the job. You are free to leave and find a better one. 

[cltbwimob]

5 hours ago, GeauxCLT said:

Welcome to the real world. There are very respected and published tenured professors (even department heads) at respected research universities that make less than first year professors. I worked for a public accounting firm for four years during the recession and did not get a raise or bonus. If you aren't happy, make a change. I did.  If you don't have the skill set to convince someone else to hire you, the market is paying you the correct amount or more. 

 

I believe k-12 public school teachers are under paid, but no one is going to command more pay than the teachers themselves. The recession was tough. Supply and demand works in tough times. The state is trying to make it better now that they can afford to and you are complaining. Give me a break. 

 

4 hours ago, GeauxCLT said:

I'm an economics major with a masters degree. I also worked for the government for six years. If you don't want to work for the government, go work for someone else. You're not handcuffed to your job. If you like your job and wish you got paid more, don't we all. Supply and demand works. You agreed to a salary and took the job. You are free to leave and find a better one. 

I have to say I agree with jednc.  The "supply and demand" argument you have presented is pretty feeble. 

First, if you say that you think that k-12 teachers should be paid more, then you have in essence countered your other claim that supply and demand works.  In order for supply and demand to work the market outcome has to equal the optimum outcome. However by stating that you believe teachers should be paid more, you are acknowledging that the market outcome and the optimum outcome are different.  Consequently you are suggesting that the market outcome as determined by the supply and demand curves is subject to an externality and is therefore, by definition, a market failure. By stating that supply and demand works in the case of teachers in the labor market then stating that teachers should get paid more, you are asserting two contradicting opinions.

Two (and aside from the fact that your argument is inherently contradictory),  your argument hinges on the idea that labor markets function as (near) perfectly competitive markets, but I think that assumption is somewhat tenuous, especially as it applies to the teaching profession.  Recall from your economics training that in order for a market to be competitive there must be many buyers and sellers, the goods and services provided in the market must be largely the same, and there must be relatively free entry and exit into/from a market.  If you think about the three aforementioned points as a litmus tests for a competitive markets I think you will easily be able to identify reasons as to why the "market" for teachers is not a canonical competitive market.  Without going into the reasons I believe it fails these litmus tests, I will say that stating "supply and demand works" is a gross oversimplification whose application here is indeed indicative of the 9th grade civics approach to economic analysis.  That is not to say that I don't think you have an advanced degree in the economics, its just to say that arguing your point in the way you have, I suspect, would lead many economists to challenge you.

[GeauxCLT]

^^^fair enough. My view is that the salary figure is not the only benefit defining the utility curve of being a teacher. There is the state pension, the lifestyle (summer's off), the job security, the self actualization of doing a job you may like. If there were a shortage of teachers, the state would be forced to incent more people to do the job.  Something is keeping the supply there. 

All I'm suggesting is if someone isnt happy with their situation, they should make a change. It sounds like jednc wants to continue being a teacher despite thinking they deserve more pay. That means something else in the benefits of being a teacher is keeping him there. 

The tone of my other two posts was overly aggressive and for that I apologize. I appreciate those that choose the career path of educating children and acknowledge they must do it out of vocation and not greed. 

[ah59396]

1 hour ago, GeauxCLT said:

^^^fair enough. My view is that the salary figure is not the only benefit defining the utility curve of being a teacher. There is the state pension, the lifestyle (summer's off), the job security, the self actualization of doing a job you may like. If there were a shortage of teachers, the state would be forced to incent more people to do the job.  Something is keeping the supply there. 

All I'm suggesting is if someone isnt happy with their situation, they should make a change. It sounds like jednc wants to continue being a teacher despite thinking they deserve more pay. That means something else in the benefits of being a teacher is keeping him there. 

The tone of my other two posts was overly aggressive and for that I apologize. I appreciate those that choose the career path of educating children and acknowledge they must do it out of vocation and not greed. 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with liking your job, but demanding you be paid reasonably.  I went to App to be a teacher and ended up GTFO because I started crunching the numbers and realized I'd have a hell of a time not living with my parents on $28k a year (starting NC teachers salary at time time).

clearly there are great benefits to being a teacher, but ours are paid like crap.  My high school English teacher shouldn't have to work at Lowes part time during the school year to make rent. (True story).

[Silicon Dogwoods]

2 hours ago, GeauxCLT said:

^^^fair enough. My view is that the salary figure is not the only benefit defining the utility curve of being a teacher. There is the state pension, the lifestyle (summer's off), the job security, the self actualization of doing a job you may like. If there were a shortage of teachers, the state would be forced to incent more people to do the job.  Something is keeping the supply there. 

All I'm suggesting is if someone isnt happy with their situation, they should make a change. It sounds like jednc wants to continue being a teacher despite thinking they deserve more pay. That means something else in the benefits of being a teacher is keeping him there. 

The tone of my other two posts was overly aggressive and for that I apologize. I appreciate those that choose the career path of educating children and acknowledge they must do it out of vocation and not greed. 

Teachers only have the summer 'off' if they are married to a spouse who makes a very good income. Otherwise, they continue working at any number of jobs to keep the wolf from the door, just like all of us.

I don't know what you've been reading but everything I've read about teachers the last couple of years says that North Carolina has a teacher shortage. Maybe that's why the solons (I use the term loosely) in Raleigh have begun to discuss raising teacher pay. After all, even a blind squirrel...

We agree that if someone is unhappy, a change is in order. I've given and followed that advice my entire career and it's rarely been incorrect. But I also believe that teachers should be better paid. I'd happily pay higher income taxes to accomplish that. I'd happily have it be a progressive increase aligned with my earnings. But it would be pointless and fatuous to pay more money to Raleigh all on my own. Such a self-imposed tax increase would accomplish nothing.

Am I still here? Yes, but desperately trying to buy a house in Portland. Their housing market is insane. I already lost one bidding war as one of 10, yes 10 would-be buyers of a mid-'50s ranch that was well-kept but ridiculously out-of-date. Everything has multiple offers. Trying again today on another property.

 

 

[caterpillar2]

21 hours ago, JBS said:

This does feel noteworthy and like good news (though I suspect some may suggest it's still not enough).  I wonder if past efforts to increase pay initiated by Democrats were stymied by Republican opposition?  That said, without knowing the details this feels like progress.

There's an adage, "Those that can't, teach."  There is a lot of truth in that. Although many teachers are dedicated, intelligent people that genuinely wish to help society, there are also those that have obtained one of the easiest degrees attainable expecting to someday get executive pay. I probably could have gotten a job teaching when I came to Charlotte with my credentials, but I simply wasn't prepared to continue dedicating my life to educating students in disruptive classes that had no desire to learn or show respect. My hat off to those that endure such a life style. At least they do get lots of holidays and almost three months vacation annually for that salary. I do believe that the pay isn't as awful as many insinuate considering benefits, but if one intends to support a family in a descent manner, another career path may be more suitable.

I spent a career in the military. I am so sorry that that those that serve are being so poorly taken care of these days as well.

[11 HouseBZ]

^So if there's always a better position leave and take it?  Then who is left to teach my future kids, or say, the ones already in the school system? Why not fix the current situation, which is happening a little,  and make it better so we can retain high quality teachers? I've seen them to be better adapted to handling these "unruly" classrooms especially over a rookie teacher. I applaud jednc for staying as long as he has and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect fair wage, especially if you're below the average. I think there might be another factor to his and others staying or wanting to stay so long not considered. Enjoying helping others in their community. This is huge for my employment. It's not always about making the most money. But you've still got to be able to make a living. Sure, you can up and leave for SC for better pay, but again my question is, who is left for the kids here? I want good teachers here. So instead of "you don't like the situation, leave", how about "stay and let's make it better". Just my thoughts.

Now back to good news.

[Nick2]

My high school has almost none of the teachers that I had only four years ago. Either they retired or only stay around for a year or two and then leave. This makes the quality of education drop dramatically and guarantees that students won't get to know any of them very well which is fairly important to some students.

[Midwoodian]

On 5/27/2016 at 8:25 AM, caterpillar2 said:

There's an adage, "Those that can't, teach."  There is a lot of truth in that. Although many teachers are dedicated, intelligent people that genuinely wish to help society, there are also those that have obtained one of the easiest degrees attainable expecting to someday get executive pay. I probably could have gotten a job teaching when I came to Charlotte with my credentials, but I simply wasn't prepared to continue dedicating my life to educating students in disruptive classes that had no desire to learn or show respect. My hat off to those that endure such a life style. At least they do get lots of holidays and almost three months vacation annually for that salary. I do believe that the pay isn't as awful as many insinuate considering benefits, but if one intends to support a family in a descent manner, another career path may be more suitable.

I spent a career in the military. I am so sorry that that those that serve are being so poorly taken care of these days as well.

Your comment of "Those that can't, teach," is insulting, disrespectful, and debasing to teachers--even with your half-hearted follow up attempt at empathy.  My wife chose to teach over going to law school because she wanted to be an educator, and many other teachers I know are also extremely bright and talented.  Your continental statement is dangerous and feeds into the current social issue of deficient teacher pay witnessed in many states and the under-funding of education in this country.  While some teachers may have taken the easy way out (like many in any profession--there are underachievers at all levels of the professional world), I would argue the vast, vast majority of teachers chose to be educators and forewent more lucrative professions because educating is what they wanted to do with their life.

Please be careful with your statements--even on an anonymous internet board. 

[caterpillar2]

53 minutes ago, Midwoodian said:

Your comment of "Those that can't, teach," is insulting, disrespectful, and debasing to teachers--even with your half-hearted follow up attempt at empathy.  My wife chose to teach over going to law school because she wanted to be an educator, and many other teachers I know are also extremely bright and talented.  Your continental statement is dangerous and feeds into the current social issue of deficient teacher pay witnessed in many states and the under-funding of education in this country.  While some teachers may have taken the easy way out (like many in any profession--there are underachievers at all levels of the professional world), I would argue the vast, vast majority of teachers chose to be educators and forewent more lucrative professions because educating is what they wanted to do with their life.

Please be careful with your statements--even on an anonymous internet board. 

I do not deny your comments about those that wish to dedicate their lives to teaching for which I also mentioned. On the other hand, teachers today are disillusioned, in most cases, that they can change the world. There is an unbelievably retention rate with teachers. Many are like cops that think they can change the world as well. Perhaps your wife teaches at one of the few high academically performing schools and would do nothing else.  Unfortunately, most teachers in public schools face ciaos daily and instead of the primary job being educating, it turns out to be baby sitting those that wish not to learn or be in class.  This is why there is such a turn over. In most cases, the faculty sides with parent(s) for political reasons and the poor teachers don't get the support they deserve. You are welcomed to interpret what I am saying any way you choose. I've been there. I know.

I am curious about your comment, "Please be careful with your statements---even on an anonymous internet board."  Careful of what?  What "anonymous" internet board?

[Nick2]

Take this discussion to the coffee house please. 

[Midwoodian]

 

@caterpillar2 just to be careful in making continental statements; it can come across as prejudice

 

 

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[caterpillar2]

5 hours ago, Midwoodian said:

 

@caterpillar2 just to be careful in making continental statements; it can come across as prejudice

 

 

Sent from my iPhone usin

5 hours ago, Midwoodian said:

 

@caterpillar2 just to be careful in making continental statements; it can come across as prejudice

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

g Tapatalk

 I don't know what you mean by "continental statement" or where I could have possibly come across as "prejudice."    I will assume that your advise is positive, therefore I thank you.