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Hinman project - new 13 story hotel at 10 Ionia


GRDadof3

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On 8/16/2016 at 9:20 AM, GRLaker said:

Is that meeting open to the public? If so, does anyone plan on attending?

That meeting is open to the public, public hearing room on the 2nd floor of city hall, 5pm tonight. I won't be there fwiw.

http://grandrapidscitymi.iqm2.com/Citizens/FileOpen.aspx?Type=14&ID=2237&Inline=True

 

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I just noticed that as well. With the extra foot traffic from this building and the bob it could easily support a new retail on the ground floor of there parking garage. Big question is an additional 2 floors of parking enough to satisfy people who are always going to complain about parking!

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1 hour ago, mielsonwheels said:

It looks like the parking garage will get two more floors, and is it my imagination but is the ground floor shown closed in by glass?  Maybe some retail spots to support the hotel/tenants?

The floorplans show several retail tenants. 

imageproxy.php?img=https%3A%2F%2Fc2.stat

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Well, I called that one: 

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/design-changes-requested-for-downtown-skyscraper/301188523

My interpretation of the comments is that if they want to have the height of the CBD, they are going to have to incorporate a lot of the architectural qualities of the historic buildings in Heartside.  

Yes, they approved Gallery on Fulton.  That was a serious mistake, and it seems they learned a valuable lesson.  Good.  Never again.

Edited by x99
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30 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

Sounds like the HPC still doesn't like it (according to Nick Manes from MiBiz). :( Said he'd have a story about it today. 

Joe

Yeah, more work to do it appears.

 

https://mibiz.com/item/23930-historic-preservation-commission-requests-more-details-on-hinman-co-’s-proposed-42-story-skyscraper-in-downtown-grand-rapids

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So I think it's worth posting again the world's most beautiful recently proposed tower that still has a boatload of glass.  I posted it before, but here it is again:

0ca1d643364300c19d457a6eef623738.jpg

So beautiful.  Something like this would be so amazingly, deliciously perfect.  It woudn't be like dumping a giant sore thumb in the middle of Heartside.  It would be the perfect cherry on top of the whole area.  A stunning rebuke to the mediocrity that has been the last 40 years of "meh".  

I should cross post this thing on every article about this this tower.  Maybe someone from Hinman will see it and fall in love with this sort of amazing design work.  I often say I could do better than a lot of the bland cubes being guilt in Grand Rapids.  I couldn't do better than this.  This is architecture.  This is talent.  This is the modern and the traditional all rolled up into one amazing package.  Hopefully Hinman blows us away ... 

Edited by x99
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That wouldn't work well in a triangular lot 

 

 

 So if last night was an "informal" meeting to tell them they need to change the design a bit, what is next? When is the formal decision? And what was hinman thinking If they just came in with more material details in the same building as what was planned before?

Edited by GR8scott
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Hopefully it only takes one design change to meet their expectations. This kind of back and forth can really end up resulting in the scrapping of a project if it goes on for too long. IMO, the HPC should not have the authority to determine the design of a building on an empty lot where there hasn't been a building in decades. Also, they're proving themselves to be inconsistent considering the crap they allowed across the street. 

Edited by GRLaker
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x99, 

That is a beautiful proposal. But there is no way it would work on anything but a square or rectangular lot. If they stepped the building back like that on this lot, by about the 20th story, it would fit the elevator shaft and maybe a little lobby to wait for the elevator (but no apartments). Seems to me, the developer needs to find a way to keep it flat and vary the windows and architecture. 

I still don't agree with the HPC on this one, as I think anything north of Fulton is CBD. I hope they push the developer to make it the best building possible, and then approve it. I thought the reference to McKay tower was a little dopey. I love McKay Tower. Nobody is going to build a 40 story version of McKay tower...

Joe

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18 minutes ago, GRLaker said:

Hopefully it only takes one design change to meet their expectations. This kind of back and forth can really end up resulting in the scrapping of a project if it goes on for too long. IMO, the HPC should not have the authority to determine the design of a building on an empty lot where there hasn't been a building in decades. Also, they're proving themselves to be inconsistent considering the crap they allowed across the street. 

Exactly.

Yet again stupidity in the HPC is causing a flirtation with disaster because these people have absolutely convinced themselves that this historical district in Heartside was created to preserve actual history, and not as an economic tool to force renovation to derelict buildings!

“That makes us feel like it kind of belongs,” explained commission chair Emily Uebbing. “Kind of a balance between the city center and the Heartside District.”

They are demanding all types of utterly inconsequential elements to "blend in" with nothing that any of them can defend needs blending in with. There doesn't need to be some hack copy of some goofy out-of-date Art Deco knockoff that never existed in this spot and makes no reference to any building that has ever existed in Heartside nor should a building in 2016 ape design elements of generic buildings of 1899 (because history). This is an empty parking lot! and it is surrounded by structures that are as about as historic-looking as a Meijer store taped to an Aldi. Those 100 year old buildings the HPC swoons over are too expensive to construct today. That is why they aren't done.

This is a prime example of the city thinking we are the living ****, and that we can play games like this as if we have 45 other developers waiting to get their hands on this lot. If these guys mess this up, then there needs to be a real movement to redefine the HPC's role, or disband them or this "historical district". They are playing with fire on this one, and they need to be read the Riot Act. If they are just putting on a little show to save face, then make it quick and get out of the way or the city needs to step in and put a stop to it so this thing can get going.

City administrators say they expect the developer will come back with some design changes, hear some more recommendations and eventually the project will get the go-ahead. 

Eventually? You may not have that long. Time is money, and stuff like this is not guaranteed the more nonsense is tossed in front of it. These guys have a tight window in terms of finances and labor and they simply will WALK AWAY if this tosses their time-table right out the window.

Or maybe the HPC needs another tour of the corner of Cherry and Eastern to be reminded how the goofy decisions end up costing the city development.

 

 

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1 hour ago, x99 said:

So I think it's worth posting again the world's most beautiful recently proposed tower that still has a boatload of glass.  I posted it before, but here it is again:

0ca1d643364300c19d457a6eef623738.jpg

So beautiful.  Something like this would be so amazingly, deliciously perfect.  It woudn't be like dumping a giant sore thumb in the middle of Heartside.  It would be the perfect cherry on top of the whole area.  A stunning rebuke to the mediocrity that has been the last 40 years of "meh".  

I should cross post this thing on every article about this this tower.  Maybe someone from Hinman will see it and fall in love with this sort of amazing design work.  I often say I could do better than a lot of the bland cubes being guilt in Grand Rapids.  I couldn't do better than this.  This is architecture.  This is talent.  This is the modern and the traditional all rolled up into one amazing package.  Hopefully Hinman blows us away ... 

I do agree that the current design needs something. Right now it looks like a giant radiator turned on its side. I don't know if stepbacks would work, as Joe mentioned though. But something on the top? Make it a signature building that everyone will associate with Grand Rapids. The Amway Grand sloped roof is a good example, its silhouette is immediately recognizable on marketing materials.

Even small stepbacks would go a long way.

 

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11 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

But something on the top?  Make it a signature building that everyone will associate with Grand Rapids.

I was thinking a mitten, but then anyone approaching from the opposite side would think the thumb was the west side of the state.

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5 hours ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Yet again stupidity in the HPC is causing a flirtation with disaster because these people have absolutely convinced themselves that this historical district in Heartside was created to preserve actual history, and not as an economic tool to force renovation to derelict buildings!

Those 100 year old buildings the HPC swoons over are too expensive to construct today. That is why they aren't done.
 

Granted, some "historic districts" seem to be little more than shameless tax grabs, but most historic districts or designated buildings really do exist to preserve the architectural character of the district or the building.  Whether that is through incentivizing renovation or requiring compatible new construction and additions, the end result is the same:  Stopping a threat to architectural character.  If you are going to allow endless out-of-character buildings in historic districts, they lose their significance.  The NPS can and will delist a district or a building if it loses the character for which it is designated.  HPC is doing their job, and they are doing it far better than they have in the past.  Good for them. 

So far as construction costs, this is not true.  You know what the most expensive part of a building's exterior cladding is?  The windows.  Constructing a building out of all windows is not exactly cheap.  Your local strip center on Alpine would undoubtedly be a giant glass box if that were cheaper to build and maintain than a brick building with a cornice.   The glass costs on, say, RiverHouse or Helen Devos were enormous.

EDIT:  I checked a few references.  Facade costs for glass are about 4-5 times the cost of brick.  The still run slightly higher than a natural marble facade.  The lifecycle costs for glass are, however, still substantially higher.  

 

6 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

I still don't agree with the HPC on this one, as I think anything north of Fulton is CBD. I hope they push the developer to make it the best building possible, and then approve it. I thought the reference to McKay tower was a little dopey. I love McKay Tower. Nobody is going to build a 40 story version of McKay tower...

Joe

I thought it was actually a pretty good reference.  The challenge is to create a building which blends with the traditional architecture of the district and, if you want a modern design, fold in some more modern design elements.  That's why I posted the building I did.  I know it is far, far too large.  It would probably be a 1000 foot tall building.  But, try to find an "old" skyscraper with windows like that.  They don't exist.  That design very successfully blends a traditional design aesthetic with very modern features.  If someone can sketch that for a magazine article, someone surely ought to be able to sketch something just as good that will actually be built.  I cut the building I posted down a little bit with a little cutting and pasting.  It's still a stunner, and still quite modern.  Yet, instead of standing out like a sore thumb in Heartside, would be more like icing on the cake.

CutDownBldg2.png

And let's not forget that Hinman was not asking for approval.  They were asking for feedback.  They want to get this right.  Let's not be too hard on HPC.  Hinman asked for their opinion, and they got it.

Edited by x99
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10 minutes ago, x99 said:

Granted, some "historic districts" seem to be little more than shameless tax grabs, but most historic districts or designated buildings really do exist to preserve the architectural character of the district or the building.  Whether that is through incentivizing renovation or requiring compatible new construction and additions, the end result is the same:  Stopping a threat to architectural character.  If you are going to allow endless out-of-character buildings in historic districts, they lose their significance.  The NPS can and will delist a district or a building if it loses the character for which it is designated.  HPC is doing their job, and they are doing it far better than they have in the past.  Good for them. 

Again, what architectural character exists in Heartside? What is the prevailing style that is so unique that this building is threatening?

If the old Hotel Cody was still standing or the old Press and Herald building were still around, or even the old train station, and whatever existed before the building that housed Herpolsheimer's/City Center/Police HQ went up, then there MIGHT be a case to be made. But right now there isnt anything the HPC is going off of other then there are some generic old buildings nearby, and this will obliterate.....something. And by making references to McKay tower, they have already undermined their own position as that building isnt even in this district. They are supposed to be preserving the character of Heartside, not Monroe Center.

There is simply no character to be out of unless old railway hotels and offices for freight companies is some sort of historic theme. And on top of that why do we even have an obsession to make any new structure "fit in"? If the purpose is to preserve actual historic buildings, then let them stand out on their own as being as unique as we say they are, to the time that they were built. If the HPC thinks it's an easy trick to just make cheap copies, then were these old buildings all that special to begin with? Make everything look old for the sake of old, and these buildings just vanish into the scenery. At least with the UICA I know where the "old" ends and new begins if I care enough to wonder.

 

And while glass is more expensive, this build demands the building be as thin and light as possible because they dont have a lot of space to work with. Your average strip mall can easily use cinder blocks and have 3.5 out of 4 walls be blank because they work with far lower standards all around

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