Hinman project - new 13 story hotel at 10 Ionia

[x99]

Looking back at the original renderings, there is a lot more than just shorter.  It appears that the amount of glass has been significantly reduced, and the opacity of the glass has been increased.  Essentially, they've avoided a curtain wall system in favor of individual windows.  This is good and bad.  The reduction in glass brings the overall proportions of solid space to void very much in line with traditional flatiron buildings.  It's almost postmodern (e.g. the style of Detroit's Comerica Tower), but I worry somewhat that it is lacking in the little (or more accurately, large) details that make the good examples of that style work.  Still, a postmodern flatiron could be interesting.

[GRDadof3]

50 minutes ago, x99 said:

Looking back at the original renderings, there is a lot more than just shorter.  It appears that the amount of glass has been significantly reduced, and the opacity of the glass has been increased.  Essentially, they've avoided a curtain wall system in favor of individual windows.  This is good and bad.  The reduction in glass brings the overall proportions of solid space to void very much in line with traditional flatiron buildings.  It's almost postmodern (e.g. the style of Detroit's Comerica Tower), but I worry somewhat that it is lacking in the little (or more accurately, large) details that make the good examples of that style work.  Still, a postmodern flatiron could be interesting.

It is Yamasaki. Didn't they do a lot of the buildings in downtown Detroit? 

[GRDadof3]

Answer to the hotel question: Residence Inn.

Project is going for Brownfield this month.  Was approved by HPC on June 20th, 2018 (from this submittal) and skywalk was approved by PC on July 12th. 

 

 

 

 

[x99]

Thanks for posting those.  I do like this more than the original design, which always had this weird notch about a 1/3 of the way up where it looked (visually) like the building would crack off in a windstorm.  I think this strongly moves it into the Postmodern camp.  No, it doesn't have any real nods to architectural ornament like some Postmodern, but they do have the proportion and scale right this time around.  It's a nicely done building.

[Jateo]

https://mibiz.com/item/26114-dda-to-provide-financial-support-for-hinman-hotel-project-in-downtown-gr

These people are absolute garbage. This whole 2-3 year fake news story is pathetic. This Hinman Company is a fraud. They are the emperor with no clothes. Build this thing already. Give me a break, you can’t build the original height because there are too many units being built? Like people wouldn’t buy a unit in the prime part of downtown and at the highest point in the city? But instead buy a unit on the ground floor in some other craphole on Michigan st instead? Pathetic.  It was all just for show. Hinman never had the resources to take on this project. They are a pathetic company.  It’s a shame that a real company didn’t own this property and could have made this happen.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Jateo

[joeDowntown]

10 hours ago, Jateo said:

https://mibiz.com/item/26114-dda-to-provide-financial-support-for-hinman-hotel-project-in-downtown-gr

These people are absolute garbage. This whole 2-3 year fake news story is pathetic. This Hinman Company is a fraud. They are the emperor with no clothes. Build this thing already. Give me a break, you can’t build the original height because there are too many units being built? Like people wouldn’t buy a unit in the prime part of downtown and at the highest point in the city? But instead buy a unit on the ground floor in some other craphole on Michigan st instead? Pathetic.  It was all just for show. Hinman never had the resources to take on this project. They are a pathetic company.  It’s a shame that a real company didn’t own this property and could have made this happen.

Settle down. I think this is a pretty standard request. I bet this isn’t make or break for the developer, but if the DDA is willing to wave 1.2 million over 15 years, what developer wouldn’t ask?

Hinman is a reputable guy. Calling them a fraud is over the top.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

46 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

Settle down. I think this is a pretty standard request. I bet this isn’t make or break for the developer, but if the DDA is willing to wave 1.2 million over 15 years, what developer wouldn’t ask?

Hinman is a reputable guy. Calling them a fraud is over the top.

Joe

Agreed Joe. Way over the top. 

[kwl]

14 hours ago, Jateo said:

https://mibiz.com/item/26114-dda-to-provide-financial-support-for-hinman-hotel-project-in-downtown-gr

These people are absolute garbage. This whole 2-3 year fake news story is pathetic. This Hinman Company is a fraud. They are the emperor with no clothes. Build this thing already. Give me a break, you can’t build the original height because there are too many units being built? Like people wouldn’t buy a unit in the prime part of downtown and at the highest point in the city? But instead buy a unit on the ground floor in some other craphole on Michigan st instead? Pathetic.  It was all just for show. Hinman never had the resources to take on this project. They are a pathetic company.  It’s a shame that a real company didn’t own this property and could have made this happen.

Don't think you quite understand how anything works. By putting this building in, the city is hoping that it will increase surrounding property value and continued development. Therefore, the city is able to capture more tax revenue. This isn't so much a handout as it is an investment. 

As for Hinman not having the resources to take on a development like this, you're obviously misinformed. I'm sure that they/he could've raised the money to build a tower within the original scope if they so chose. After all, Trump was able to continue to attract investment after nearly bankrupting every single project he developed. People will always throw money at real estate. 

[ProtoSapien]

45 minutes ago, kwl said:

After all, Trump was able to continue to attract investment after nearly bankrupting every single project he developed. People will always throw money at real estate. 

No collusion!  

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, kwl said:

Don't think you quite understand how anything works. By putting this building in, the city is hoping that it will increase surrounding property value and continued development. Therefore, the city is able to capture more tax revenue. This isn't so much a handout as it is an investment. 

As for Hinman not having the resources to take on a development like this, you're obviously misinformed. I'm sure that they/he could've raised the money to build a tower within the original scope if they so chose. After all, Trump was able to continue to attract investment after nearly bankrupting every single project he developed. People will always throw money at real estate. 

Coming from someone who works knee-deep in residential real estate development, I can un-equivically say this is untrue.  At least here locally.  It may not have been the Hinmans who got skittish, it may have been their lenders or their investors or both. At current absorption rates of apartments in the city, I think we're probably sitting on close to 3 years of inventory (at the prices they're asking), if you count everything online now and coming online this year. 

I say kudos to Hinman for investing $30 Million in a city that is really not their "namesake" city, which I believe is Battle Creek (and/or Kalamazoo). It's a really sharp looking project and the scale is probably really going to make Fulton pop in a few years when it's finished. I for one am looking forward to seeing it go up.  

[joeDowntown]

My family is friends with Roger Hinman, and he’s dreamt of building on that site for at least 20 years. So this isn’t some sort of 20 year slow con.  also, I imagine it cost a significant amount of money to design the larger building, meet the Hsitoric commissions demands, then have to downsize (which didn’t involve just loppig off 30 stories, im sure the new design took significant work). If this was all a part of a dubious plan to get 1.2 million in tax relief over 15 years, I don’t think the guy would be as successful as he is.

Joe

[Guest]

I was hoping Hinman's desire to have the tallest building in the city would win out, but I think the 12 story version will look pretty nice.  I'm all about height, but this looks nice and it's not a weird, mediocre metal and glass cube.

Now if only we could another one on the triangle site north of the former lady gadivas 

[joeDowntown]

10 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

Now if only we could another one on the triangle site north of the former lady gadivas 

That seems like a tricky piece of land (on two hills, small lot). I’m intrigued to see what someone eventually does with that piece of land. 

Joe

[kwl]

21 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Coming from someone who works knee-deep in residential real estate development, I can un-equivically say this is untrue.  At least here locally.  It may not have been the Hinmans who got skittish, it may have been their lenders or their investors or both. At current absorption rates of apartments in the city, I think we're probably sitting on close to 3 years of inventory (at the prices they're asking), if you count everything online now and coming online this year. 

I say kudos to Hinman for investing $30 Million in a city that is really not their "namesake" city, which I believe is Battle Creek (and/or Kalamazoo). It's a really sharp looking project and the scale is probably really going to make Fulton pop in a few years when it's finished. I for one am looking forward to seeing it go up.  

Perhaps I was being a bit dramatic. I believe there was an off the cuff quote about the "ROI not being right" a few months ago and that probably had something to do with it. I think what I was eluding to is that Hinman wouldn't of put $10s/$100s of thousands of dollars into development work, due diligence, design, etc. if they weren't confident they could raise the money to build it. 

[wingbert]

The Plague of Pancake Development

not as much this specific development but this article could apply to a Grand Rapids theme that has been emerging the last couple of years

[joeDowntown]

5 hours ago, wingbert said:

The Plague of Pancake Development

not as much this specific development but this article could apply to a Grand Rapids theme that has been emerging the last couple of years

Interesting article. Definitely mentions a lot of the problems Grand Rapids seems to be facing. Squat, uninspired buildings that probably won’t stand the test of time. 

I actually like the Hinman building and think it’s shape will make it unique  but the article definitely rings true in general terms.

Joe

 

[GRDadof3]

17 hours ago, wingbert said:

The Plague of Pancake Development

not as much this specific development but this article could apply to a Grand Rapids theme that has been emerging the last couple of years

While the article does nail some of the issues GR is facing with a lot of its new developments, using Vancouver as an example is a bit troubling. It's incredibly beautiful in pictures, but to achieve that "towers in the park", condos in Vancouver sell for $1000/sf+.  ie, every condo in downtown GR would be priced about the same as the top floors of Bridgewater. How many people are there in this region who can afford that? 

Plus, what's wrong with the waterfront in Oslo that they use? I think it's pretty cool.

I think Hinman's building actually shakes up the establishment along Fulton. I'm looking forward to the diversity it will bring. 

[MJLO]

I don't feel like this article applies to the Hinman development.   Even at 13 floors it's still architecturally unique to the neighborhood it's in.  It's also more attractive than the hideous infill boxes that have gone in up and down Fulton near it.  The current 12-13 story curse in GR is more a limitation of financing and market demand, than having any relation to NIMBYism and code restrictions(unless you all know something I don't).   He seems to insinuate that it's only a matter of time before all of these boring boxes lead to the same urban flight and decay that happened 50 years ago.   While I do think architectural diversity is key to a cities character, I see no evidence that the days of building opulent towering monuments of the late 20's, early 1930's will ever come back.  

I think the case in Grand Rapids is very different.  In places like DC, Chicago, New York, San Francisco, Boston ect, you are seeing entire neighborhoods replaced by these non-descript 7-10 story structures lining the street on end.  They are indeed soulless.    As a small industrial city Grand Rapids core remained largely intact(unique to other cities its size).  Instead of several blocks disappearing to these, we are only seeing infill on a lot by lot basis.  The result is some characterless boxes filling in holes next to the original built form still full of character.  In my opinion they still had to the character, and overall vibrancy of the neighborhoods they are being built.  Overall they are still making the city far more attractive to outsiders, and Grand Rapids is still gaining momentum as a small Millennial destination.  

There are a couple of neighborhoods that could potentially take on this type of "characterless beige desert" mentioned in the article -Belknap, and Midtown.  I initially thought potentially the Bridge St corridor as well.   That seems to be the pet project of Rockford Construction alone.  They seem to be careful not to build soulless infill that would dilute the character of the Westside.   If anything they are doing the opposite IMO.

[GR_Urbanist]

In defense of those more boring developments, they actually get built in a reasonable amount of time, and fill in real holes. Most of them have good ground-floor transparency, zero set-backs, and retail.

 

Stuff like this drag on for years (this is already 2 years and counting), gets watered-down (check), and then around 2021 the land is quietly sold-off to someone else and we never hear from the developer again.

Edited October 2, 2018 by GR_Urbanist

[HavingAhoot]

I love the Hinman building

I think this is a problem in GR; boring boxes with little character.

My question to others than know more than me is: Is there a possibility that some of these clad boxes end up in 10-15 years getting a facelift? Maybe instead of "Industrial corrugated steel sheek" or any of the other trends that seem to be just cheap overdone they could take that down and add stone work or glass? Idk just seems like just because they are budgeted now doesn't mean they are forever hopeless. I don't want to be like the people on HGTV who can't buy that house cause of the green paint and bad tile choice.

[GRLaker]

I think we're seeing a shift away from building to make a statement toward building to fill a need and nothing more. This project went from Hinman dreaming of building the tallest building in Grand Rapids with a hotel combined with apartments to him building a standard 13 story building in a city where the average building being built is anywhere between 4 and 12 stories because that's what the demand combined with price called for. His desired statement piece was no longer on the table. Based on the article, this obviously isn't exclusive to GR. What does seem to be exclusive to us though is that our pancake buildings are generally as flat and featureless as your average warehouse. 

[x99]

6 hours ago, GRLaker said:

I think we're seeing a shift away from building to make a statement toward building to fill a need and nothing more. This project went from Hinman dreaming of building the tallest building in Grand Rapids with a hotel combined with apartments to him building a standard 13 story building in a city where the average building being built is anywhere between 4 and 12 stories because that's what the demand combined with price called for. His desired statement piece was no longer on the table. Based on the article, this obviously isn't exclusive to GR. What does seem to be exclusive to us though is that our pancake buildings are generally as flat and featureless as your average warehouse. 

I think you're right that we're just filling space with a lot of stuff.  Lately, I've heard a lot of unprompted "looks cheap" or similar comments around projects like Warner Tower.  It is so bad that it makes Fifth Third Center look like an architectural tour de force.  I don't know if those panels actually are cheap--various sources suggest they are not, both in initial costs and long term maintenance and efficiency--but it's hard to argue with the assessment that they look cheap and tacky, like pieces of plexiglass with metal covering the seams.  Is there really anyone who thinks that looks "high end"?  It's hard to imagine how that building could have been designed and built to be more bland, generic, and thoughtless. 

Despite its faults, if the Hinman Tower actually does get built, it shouldn't suffer from being an insipid glass garbage pile like Warner Tower or the similarly horrible corrugated metal trash cans popping up all over town.

Edited October 2, 2018 by x99

[GRDadof3]

This project goes before the city commission today for Brownfield approval. 

[SupercityGR]

If approved when do they break ground?

[GRDadof3]

42 minutes ago, SupercityGR said:

If approved when do they break ground?

January 2019 with 18 months of construction, according to an article recently.