When Will Greenville Be Ready For Height?

[motonenterprises]

I felt this would be a fun discussion. We've probably had it before, but I couldn't find anything. When will Greenville be ready for something taller than or equal to the Landmark building? They are building these low to mid rises like crazy. I must say I love the density being added. I wouldn't mind seeing something signature though. I know it has to do with vacancy rates etc. But if they took something like the One project and built 1 instead of 2 or 3 buildings, that would've been the tallest.Thoughts?

[Jet-set]

It would be interesting to know the vacancy percentages in buildings like Landmark and the One towers.

[ausrutherford]

Once density is high and a lot of the open available land is built on, the only way to add more with be by going higher. We are probably a decade away.

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[motonenterprises]

1 minute ago, ausrutherford said:

Once density is high and a lot of the open available land is built on, the only way to add more with be by going higher. We are probably a decade away.

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That could be the case. They don't have an issue building low and mid rises though. Wouldn't mind seeing the landmark building at least remodeled to bring it up to standards.

[ausrutherford]

6 hours ago, motonenterprises said:

That could be the case. They don't have an issue building low and mid rises though. Wouldn't mind seeing the landmark building at least remodeled to bring it up to standards.

They could remodel the interior, however, I doubt they would change the exterior significantly. Plaza though I bet could be remodeled.

[gman430]

9 hours ago, Jet-set said:

It would be interesting to know the vacancy percentages in buildings like Landmark and the One towers.

ONE phase II building has 68,000 out of 220,000 square feet available: http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/454D7571-EF2A-4EF6-B5E6-32ADDBB155B8.pdf Phase I building is 100% leased.

Landmark building has 48,179 out of 357,752 square feet available: http://x.lnimg.com/attachments/53C5FDBD-4A3C-42A3-B495-7012C102017B.pdf

[johnpro318]

Wish we could get more in the 8 to 12 floor range for variation. The density is nice though.

[Exile]

One more building whose summit is roughly comparable to Landmark would be nice. Kind of like the way BOA and Duke Energy stand out in Charlotte, but a smaller scale (obviously). Seems to me that Greenville would have to recruit a big tenant to get something like that off the ground. But even so, suburban office space has always seemed to be as big, if not a bigger, draw in Greenville: Michelin, TD, Hubbell, even Liberty Life back in the day (not to mention Fluor-Daniel).

I do like the infill going on right now. Maybe downtown's population growth will soon feed back into office space in a big way and justify some of those 8 to 12 story buildings (including the courthouse and Camperdown) that johnpro318 mentions.

[ausrutherford]

7 hours ago, Exile said:

One more building whose summit is roughly comparable to Landmark would be nice. Kind of like the way BOA and Duke Energy stand out in Charlotte, but a smaller scale (obviously). Seems to me that Greenville would have to recruit a big tenant to get something like that off the ground. But even so, suburban office space has always seemed to be as big, if not a bigger, draw in Greenville: Michelin, TD, Hubbell, even Liberty Life back in the day (not to mention Fluor-Daniel).

I do like the infill going on right now. Maybe downtown's population growth will soon feed back into office space in a big way and justify some of those 8 to 12 story buildings (including the courthouse and Camperdown) that johnpro318 mentions.

I always thought Greenville should go after BMW to move them out of NJ. Mercedes moved from NJ to Atlanta. Porsche moved from DC to Atlanta. Greenville would make more sense with the plant nearby. 

[Jet-set]

A speculative office tower would be outrageous to consider in the Greenville market I know, but I feel like if the space were there it would be leased. Look at how fast Certus' space got filled. I remember an article quoting someone from GADC (I think it was) saying we are always being looked at by larger tenants but we simply don't have sizable enough blocks of "move-in ready" space.

[johnpro318]

That would be amazing. Where downtown would you think high rises would be best? I think continuing the clump near 385 on the north end would be best but would like to hear some creative ideas.

[motonenterprises]

It would surely be better in an area coming in from 385. I wouldn't expect anything crazy in height, but stuff like the one project could've been combined to make a 20+ story tower. Instead they chose to build 2 to 3 mid rises.

[gman430]

3 hours ago, Jet-set said:

A speculative office tower would be outrageous to consider in the Greenville market I know, but I feel like if the space were there it would be leased. Look at how fast Certus' space got filled. I remember an article quoting someone from GADC (I think it was) saying we are always being looked at by larger tenants but we simply don't have sizable enough blocks of "move-in ready" space.

Outrageous? I beg to differ: http://www.mirabelsmagazinecentral.com/DigitalEdition/index.html?id=259dfdf7-5b30-4765-85e2-e9878ae14b21&pn=29&pv=d

[Exile]

12 hours ago, johnpro318 said:

That would be amazing. Where downtown would you think high rises would be best? I think continuing the clump near 385 on the north end would be best but would like to hear some creative ideas.

From an aesthetic point of view, I'd like to see taller stuff north of the One. It's higher ground, and I think a lot of height down around the falls would be out of place given what's there now.

[ausrutherford]

11 hours ago, Exile said:

From an aesthetic point of view, I'd like to see taller stuff north of the One. It's higher ground, and I think a lot of height down around the falls would be out of place given what's there now.

It won't look out of place too much once Camperdown is completed. 

[gvegascple]

would have to agree with outrageous unless there is a large pre-leased component.  A 24 plus story building built on speculation would be beyond outrageous, it would be insane.  I like the spot where Greenlink is for something really tall when we are ready or over by Bouharouns on that side of town.  Okay, both :-)  In ten years....  

 

[GvilleSC]

Who says it has to be all (or any) office space? Greenville's condo market seems to be driving a healthy amount of development right now. I can't imagine another hotel being proposed any time soon, but a residential and office mix may be viable for a developer.

[ausrutherford]

I think I have mentioned this before, but the removal of the parking garage for the Bowater Building would be perfect for condos overlooking the falls. It would also remove the now-eyesore and allow a pedestrian atmosphere along that side of the river to be more pleasant. 

[Exile]

17 hours ago, ausrutherford said:

It won't look out of place too much once Camperdown is completed. 

I'm thinking of Landmark height. As I recall, the tallest Camerdown building's supposed to be about 12 or 13 stories? To me, that's borderline, but not out of place.

[Exile]

17 minutes ago, ausrutherford said:

I think I have mentioned this before, but the removal of the parking garage for the Bowater Building would be perfect for condos overlooking the falls. It would also remove the now-eyesore and allow a pedestrian atmosphere along that side of the river to be more pleasant. 

I agree. And doing so would give Falls St. about 150 feet of park frontage, which might mean good things for the low-lying area across Falls. Is that still a USPS facility down there? I've always thought that might be a good place for a convention center, if one were to be built. Close by but out of the way, and probably the least desirable area in DT.

As for the garage, isn't it privately owned? The city would have to buy it and provide a suitable alternative.

[johnpro318]

1 hour ago, Exile said:

I'm thinking of Landmark height. As I recall, the tallest Camerdown building's supposed to be about 12 or 13 stories? To me, that's borderline, but not out of place.

From Falls Park, it will seem much taller I believe.

[distortedlogic]

On 7/19/2016 at 0:32 AM, gman430 said:

Outrageous? I beg to differ: http://www.mirabelsmagazinecentral.com/DigitalEdition/index.html?id=259dfdf7-5b30-4765-85e2-e9878ae14b21&pn=29&pv=d

Gman, you beat me to it, I read this article the other day too. I think it says Class A vacancy DT is at just under %15, but DT vacancy for all office space is at an all time low and rates are at an all time high. I found it interesting that, despite this, speculation space still does not make sense. However,  I agree with GvilleSC that there is still room for a true highrise with residential or a mix use building. Our developers and architects just seem unwilling to build them even though we have always heard it is cheaper to build up than out. One, Flournoy, and several other of the big residential developments could have easily had a highrise, but low to mid rises were chosen instead. And I think it is ironic that Rick Thoenes had proposed a new tallest right before the crash a few years ago, and now it could have actually been built there but he sold it to a developer looking at a 4-5 story development. Cola has a proposal for a couple hundred apartments going over the lady st garage and they are talking about adding 22 stories. We have had several developments with that many and we get 4-7 story developments with large footprints. I guess developers and architects could better answer this question about height. I would love to see a couple highrises go up in Greenville, (but we need some decent architecture) but we have gone the low-rise density route instead, which is not all bad. Funny how we had multiple highrises proposed before the crash and now when we have the economy and demand to fill them, we have completely abandoned the highrise concept and gone all low-mid. As far as office, I think the only way would be to get a relocation somehow, but all of those will go to Charlotte or Atlanta, so we may never have that much demand for office to build a true office highrise, (30+ stories).  

[Exile]

You're all probably aware of the so-called skyscraper curse. If there's anything to it, then seeking after ever taller towers correlates with the onset of recession/depression. I for one am happy for local developers to economize on these projects. If somebody speculatively were to add 300k-500k SF to the downtown market in one fell swoop and then the bottom dropped out, Greenville's office market could go in the tank pretty quickly.

Once the federal courthouse and Camperdown are added, the skyline will be nicely changed (assuming the feds don't put up a monstrosity). It would be great for the county to move across the park into a tower. More critical mass, which eventually begets even more...

Although good point about mixed-use, GvilleSC. That kind of development would hedge bets on all three markets--retail, residential, and office.

[distortedlogic]

59 minutes ago, Exile said:

 If somebody speculatively were to add 300k-500k SF to the downtown market in one fell swoop and then the bottom dropped out, Greenville's office market could go in the tank pretty quickly.

Once the federal courthouse and Camperdown are added, the skyline will be nicely changed (assuming the feds don't put up a monstrosity). It would be great for the county to move across the park into a tower.

Agreed regarding the tank.

re: the Camperdown and Courthouse: Except these will not change the skyline. We're only talking about 10-12 story buildings, and the Camperdown sits on lower ground to begin with. These will not be noticeable except from higher spots, church st bridge, and right beside them. Even for Greenville, they will not change the skyline. They will continue to add mid level density and infill however.

'RE: County offices, I agree but I don't think it would happen. Would love to see them build a high rise elsewhere and leave current site for something really special.

[cabelagent]

1 hour ago, distortedlogic said:

Agreed regarding the tank.

re: the Camperdown and Courthouse: Except these will not change the skyline. We're only talking about 10-12 story buildings, and the Camperdown sits on lower ground to begin with. These will not be noticeable except from higher spots, church st bridge, and right beside them. Even for Greenville, they will not change the skyline. They will continue to add mid level density and infill however.

'RE: County offices, I agree but I don't think it would happen. Would love to see them build a high rise elsewhere and leave current site for something really special.

Huh?? You lost me advising 10-12 story buildings 'will not be noticeable'.