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Morris

The amazing transformation of 363 State St to a Dollar General

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GR_Urbanist    419
2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Your condescension and disdain toward everyone and everything is getting old. And then to call the people who actually took time out of their day to go to this meeting names, and when it turns out on of those objectors is on this thread and you showed no conciliation shows that you may lack the class to participate in this forum anymore. Choice is yours. Contact the owner?? He'll probanly ban you in a new york minute. 

 

" Your condescension and disdain toward everyone and everything is getting old "

Which again isnt a statement of anything. What " condescension and disdain toward everyone and everything "? I've commented on thousands of items over the past 11 years, and have praised and criticized on all number of things. Some things, I might remind you, you've criticized just the same. Unless I'm required to give blanket praise, that isnt anything more than a personal opinion.

Heck, for as much crap as I've given the HPC, I still give them kudos when they get something right. I'm not a monolith. Sue me.:lol:

... And then to call the people who actually took time out of their day to go to this meeting names

You mean when I said "cranks"? How is that any different than NIMBYs or BANANA's? Two terms used here for less than praiseworthy reasons. What I've said there isnt any different than (and in some cases not as harsh) what has been said about various entities and people that people here have disagreed with. And if we cannot dissent from these people, then how do you justify the criticism of Azzar, that we all have heaped (including yourself) on him over the years? What about the criticisms of SWAN? Here is a post I made about their opposition to a project:

" At this juncture the city has got to remind SWAN that they are not an independent government with veto power over everything. They have simply become too full of themselves when it has come to some of these developments. Any way the city can get buildings up with people in them to increase the tax dollars rolling in, should have a bit more sway than these guys trying to preserve some outdated vision of the West Side from the 1950s. "

One of the two people that liked that post, was yourself.

If anything, I'm very passionate about this stuff. I'm glad to be THAT person, but if I'm wrong, then by all means click "reply" and type away. I love the back and forth.

 

" and when it turns out on of those objectors is on this thread and you showed no conciliation "

I CLEARLY said:

At what point did I state who was those three?

If you take it to be you, then that is on you.

Which in English means IT WAS NOT DIRECTED AT HIM PERSONALLY. He was there, and only he knew that. Well I'm sorry if he took it personally. He didnt even state initially that he was even there In fact his first post was the following:

"There was a petition against it, with 13 names on it, about 6 letters opposing it, three spooked out against the project, one for at the public hearing.......who is wrong now?"

Morris could at any time have stated that he was there. He did not.  he said "THREE SPOOKED OUT". Not ME or I, but THREE. And it isnt the responsibility of people here to track down who went, cross-check names, and find out if they were a member on the forum. The whole thing was just miscommunication in the end and now that it's clear that he was there and on this forum, I likely wont say that.

 

And may I also remind you that you are not immune to statements that can be attributed to people here whom you dont know personally. Like the below:

" Maybe my perception is off, but I can't see 20 Fulton East appealing to Trump fans, which I picture as mostly over 60, overweight, white exurban males with wife beater shirts on.
I'm sure those people on FR that are "Trump fans" really liked that.

" . Contact the owner?? He'll probanly ban you in a new york minute. 

What on Earth for? I cant even get a legitimate answer from yourself other than what amounts to a slanted personal opinion and some odd disdain that I give my opinion on topics too much for your liking on a "discussion" forum.  That isnt grounds for anything and that type of stuff needs to stop, and I WILL apologize for this topic getting derailed on this (which I think is likely annoying some people :blush:). I'm more than happy to respond further over PM.

Edited by GR_Urbanist
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x99    365

I think if everyone can cut out the ad hominem attacks, we'll all be better off.  

So far as substance, I think I addressed that.  As I outlined above, the amount of space that 100+ cars consume when you park them on the street is huge. GR_Urbanist said that there might be "maybe not enough parking".  Well, it's actually quite a bit worse than that if the city's assumptions regarding cars don't hold up.  You cannot permit high density development and assume that cars will just "park on the street".  A saturation point is reached very, very quickly where just a few high density projects could quickly consume every available parking space in a low density residential neighborhood for blocks around.  That's a serious problem from an urban development perspective.  It seems to me you need more than just speculation that people won't have cars.  You need a mechanism in place to ensure people do not bring cars.  I am curious what that mechanism would like look, or if people generally think this is not a realistic problem.

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x99    365
5 hours ago, organsnyder said:

I think a big part of that mechanism is market forces accounting for the lack of a guaranteed parking space.

This is certainly true, but there's also the issue of dealing with an entire subdivision potentially being used as the "free" parking for a small handful of "dense" developments. The market prices in parking downtown, where there is not "free" parking.  But in areas near subdivisions like East Hills, Heritage Hill, Eastown, West Side, etc., that fails.  After all, how many people actually realize that 10-20 acres of space often can have only 100 to 150 street spaces?  "Market forces" do a notorious bad job of allocating something that is perceived to be unlimited and free.  

Sure, jas49503's answer of foreclosure and then dropping the rents eventually works quite well, but only after you've turned an entire neighborhood upside down, made people into enemies, and probably reduced everyone's property values in the process.  That's everything zoning was design to avoid.  

Maybe the answer is something as simple as requiring all vehicles owned by people who live in high density development to be stickered, and prohibiting them from being parked outside of a designated area.  Police can just run plates if there are compliance complaints.  Anyone see reasons that wouldn't work or would be a Really Bad Idea?  

Edited by x99

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Morris    3

Wood TV 8 ran a story on this, Wednesday.....here is the link:

http://woodtv.com/2016/08/24/gr-parking-concerns-71-apartments-37-spaces/

Went to the neighborhood meeting on Wednesday, and the owner of 345 State was there, and stated that he has a four foot sidewalk easement between his building and 363 State, so 363 State cannot build to 345 State's building, which is good. The neighbors talked about the trash bins, no bicycle parking in the plans, that were required by the city mirco-unit zoning, very little room for the utilities, and my concerns for ingress and egress of the parking lot onto State Street, now it is one way in from State Street, and out by the way of Madison, plus the main issue, is parking. We talked about the next steps, that would be talking to the planning commission, about the problems of the design and the scope of the project.

I also did hear, that Clarks store is going to shut down in three months, from the lady at the counter, at Clarks. 

I will try to keep this site updated on any new developments..... 

Edited by Morris

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jas49503    62

Does they developer here have any experience with this type of project? Who is it?

 

how much retail is included in this?  I would hope that there is a suitable amount to support something Meaningful. 

Edited by jas49503

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Morris    3
On 8/26/2016 at 8:10 AM, jas49503 said:

Does they developer here have any experience with this type of project? Who is it?

 

how much retail is included in this?  I would hope that there is a suitable amount to support something Meaningful. 

Grand Rapids-based Malone Development LLC  and  Ted Lott, principal at Grand Rapids-based Lott3Metz Architecture LLC .........

https://lott3metz.com/projects

I sure hope they don't get the old owners of Clark's, as the stores tenants! I think the second floor is going to be a store, the first, or ground floor is planned for parking....(Check last sentence!) 

"One Stop Shop! Grocery, convenience, beer, liquor and wine all in one. 18 beer coolers, 16 pop coolers and 12 frozen food, dairy and grocery units. Located in robust residential quadrant with little/no competition. Sits on a hard corner, adjacent to new apartment complex. Everything included in price minus inventory. Grocery store takes approx. half of building. The remainder used for storage of ample deli, grocery and restaurant equipment currently not in use. Ideal expansion uses: Grocery store, deli/meat market/general store/expanded liquor/beer store/dine-in restaurant and more. Property located in Heritage Hill District and minutes away from downtown. Owner to consider selling real estate separate from business."

Don't know what kind of experience they have with mirco-units....but they didn't include bike parking with the plans I saw.....

Edited by Morris

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GRCentro    56
On August 25, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Morris said:

Went to the neighborhood meeting on Wednesday, and the owner of 345 State was there, and stated that he has a four foot sidewalk easement between his building and 363 State, so 363 State cannot build to 345 State's building, which is good.

Apparently, the owners of 345 State are now suing the City for failing to recognize the  four foot easement in HPC's approval of the plans. I expect that they'll win the contest before the gavel is even lifted and new plans will have to be drawn.

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x99    365

Technically, I think Clark's is actually owned by some company calling itself the "Grand Rapids Downtown Market".  

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GRDadof3    1837
52 minutes ago, GRCentro said:

Apparently, the owners of 345 State are now suing the City for failing to recognize the  four foot easement in HPC's approval of the plans. I expect that they'll win the contest before the gavel is even lifted and new plans will have to be drawn.

345 State is Karl Chew of Brookstone Capital, correct? 

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Morris    3
On 10/26/2016 at 10:00 AM, thebeerqueer said:

Also interesting is if you google 363 State St SE, you get results for a fake "GR Downtown Market" https://goo.gl/maps/A9EkP8nqUg32 Seems like our hypothetical nomenclature has really taken off. 

That store that is shown, still shows lots of liqueur, beer, and wine.....I am wondering where they are going to get their customers from, besides their own place, 345 State, and the Section 8 Stuyvesant bridge cards, with no store parking. 

The catch about permit parking, is they only enforce it from 9 to 5, and there is no assigned parking places, so it is worthless in this situation. Heritage Hill is trying to get the area on it, but paying for spaces in front of your place, is a foreign thing in Grand Rapids.

It is interesting that the 649 Michigan project with only 18 parking spaces and 40 units went through the planning commission. Did they come up with additional parking from somewhere?

Also, the Church at Madison and Cherry is empty, and there is a large for sale sign in front. Their parking lot, as a church, was across the street, that they don't own, which they used mostly on Sundays......

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amylynne    14
10 hours ago, Morris said:

The catch about permit parking, is they only enforce it from 9 to 5, and there is no assigned parking places, so it is worthless in this situation. Heritage Hill is trying to get the area on it, but paying for spaces in front of your place, is a foreign thing in Grand Rapids.

 

Per the presentation at our neighborhood meeting, permit parking can be set up to be whatever hours the neighbors and the city decide on. The one in Belknap is 9 to 5 because those are they hours they were having issues.

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GRDadof3    1837
11 hours ago, Morris said:

That store that is shown, still shows lots of liqueur, beer, and wine.....I am wondering where they are going to get their customers from, besides their own place, 345 State, and the Section 8 Stuyvesant bridge cards, with no store parking. 

The catch about permit parking, is they only enforce it from 9 to 5, and there is no assigned parking places, so it is worthless in this situation. Heritage Hill is trying to get the area on it, but paying for spaces in front of your place, is a foreign thing in Grand Rapids.

It is interesting that the 649 Michigan project with only 18 parking spaces and 40 units went through the planning commission. Did they come up with additional parking from somewhere?

Also, the Church at Madison and Cherry is empty, and there is a large for sale sign in front. Their parking lot, as a church, was across the street, that they don't own, which they used mostly on Sundays......

$2.2 Million. It's an interesting looking church. Admittedly I've never really paid that much attention to it before. Where were people parking?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mi/grand-rapids/200-madison-avenue/pid_9737429/

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thebeerqueer    200
2 hours ago, amylynne said:

Per the presentation at our neighborhood meeting, permit parking can be set up to be whatever hours the neighbors and the city decide on. The one in Belknap is 9 to 5 because those are they hours they were having issues.

amylynne is correct, the permit parking program enforcement times be adjusted by each neighborhood to fit their needs more. 

What meeting were you at where they presented?

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GRDadof3    1837
1 hour ago, GRCentro said:

Totally aside:

Can we all agree that this image from the 200 Madison listing is impressive?

Winter is coming.

7C89cf3287dA4E7-16000231.jpg

Yes, I saw that. Totally cool.

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joeDowntown    664

We like your old man stories. :) Good stuff. I worked on the first floor of Stuyvesant in the early nineties and it was a MUCH different atmosphere (height of the Wealthy Street Boys) era. I'd be the first in every morning and had to deal with the aftermath from the night before. Many break in attempts, someone got both of their ankles shot (with accompanying blood trail that traced his getaway), etc. definitely interesting times. Clarks was awful by then (food, selection, etc). 

Interesting how areas change over the years. 

Joe

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RegalTDP    268

@walker, "Swing Man" is the awesomest job title I've ever heard.  I hope you still introduce yourself that way to people you meet.

Thank you for sharing that, it was amazing.

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x99    365
On 10/29/2016 at 0:44 PM, walker said:

Great photo, what stands out to me is how massive Stuyvesant Apartments is.  I’d say it is at least as big if not bigger than the proposed apartments on the Clark’s site.  Assuming one person per apartment, that’s about ninety people who don’t have a parking space and never did.  

Unless the Kent County GIS maps are in error (which they could be), Stuyvesant actually has has title to about 30 spaces, give or take, behind the Pregnancy Resource Center.  It isn't a ton of parking, but it may be adequate for a low income housing project.  When Morton was being operated the same way as Stuyvesant, it had no parking and the building was still waitlisted, I believe.  Dedicated Section 8 is a very different demographic from market rate housing, and parking may not be as large an issue.  The only real data point we have for new high end stuff without any parking is Morton, and the data right now shows 25% empty.  Whether there is any cause and effect relationship there, I have no idea. 

Your other points about how walkable Heritage Hill once was are well taken.  I tend to agree that it is not a very walkable neighborhood.  Despite its proximity to downtown, many neighborhoods elsewhere are far more walkable.  

Edited by x99

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Morris    3

Just heard in the Heritage Herald, the Heritage Hill neighborhood paper, that Clarks, is going to become a Dollar General......The existing building will be modified, with it's front windows replaced, and a new roof line on it. The 71 micro unit apartment plan was scraped. 

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