The amazing transformation of 363 State St to a Dollar General

[GR_Urbanist]

2 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Your condescension and disdain toward everyone and everything is getting old. And then to call the people who actually took time out of their day to go to this meeting names, and when it turns out on of those objectors is on this thread and you showed no conciliation shows that you may lack the class to participate in this forum anymore. Choice is yours. Contact the owner?? He'll probanly ban you in a new york minute. 

 

" Your condescension and disdain toward everyone and everything is getting old "

Which again isnt a statement of anything. What " condescension and disdain toward everyone and everything "? I've commented on thousands of items over the past 11 years, and have praised and criticized on all number of things. Some things, I might remind you, you've criticized just the same. Unless I'm required to give blanket praise, that isnt anything more than a personal opinion.

Heck, for as much crap as I've given the HPC, I still give them kudos when they get something right. I'm not a monolith. Sue me.

... And then to call the people who actually took time out of their day to go to this meeting names

You mean when I said "cranks"? How is that any different than NIMBYs or BANANA's? Two terms used here for less than praiseworthy reasons. What I've said there isnt any different than (and in some cases not as harsh) what has been said about various entities and people that people here have disagreed with. And if we cannot dissent from these people, then how do you justify the criticism of Azzar, that we all have heaped (including yourself) on him over the years? What about the criticisms of SWAN? Here is a post I made about their opposition to a project:

" At this juncture the city has got to remind SWAN that they are not an independent government with veto power over everything. They have simply become too full of themselves when it has come to some of these developments. Any way the city can get buildings up with people in them to increase the tax dollars rolling in, should have a bit more sway than these guys trying to preserve some outdated vision of the West Side from the 1950s. "

One of the two people that liked that post, was yourself.

If anything, I'm very passionate about this stuff. I'm glad to be THAT person, but if I'm wrong, then by all means click "reply" and type away. I love the back and forth.

 

" and when it turns out on of those objectors is on this thread and you showed no conciliation "

I CLEARLY said:

At what point did I state who was those three?

If you take it to be you, then that is on you.

Which in English means IT WAS NOT DIRECTED AT HIM PERSONALLY. He was there, and only he knew that. Well I'm sorry if he took it personally. He didnt even state initially that he was even there In fact his first post was the following:

"There was a petition against it, with 13 names on it, about 6 letters opposing it, three spooked out against the project, one for at the public hearing.......who is wrong now?"

Morris could at any time have stated that he was there. He did not.  he said "THREE SPOOKED OUT". Not ME or I, but THREE. And it isnt the responsibility of people here to track down who went, cross-check names, and find out if they were a member on the forum. The whole thing was just miscommunication in the end and now that it's clear that he was there and on this forum, I likely wont say that.

 

And may I also remind you that you are not immune to statements that can be attributed to people here whom you dont know personally. Like the below:

" Maybe my perception is off, but I can't see 20 Fulton East appealing to Trump fans, which I picture as mostly over 60, overweight, white exurban males with wife beater shirts on.
I'm sure those people on FR that are "Trump fans" really liked that.

" . Contact the owner?? He'll probanly ban you in a new york minute. 

What on Earth for? I cant even get a legitimate answer from yourself other than what amounts to a slanted personal opinion and some odd disdain that I give my opinion on topics too much for your liking on a "discussion" forum.  That isnt grounds for anything and that type of stuff needs to stop, and I WILL apologize for this topic getting derailed on this (which I think is likely annoying some people ). I'm more than happy to respond further over PM.

[x99]

I think if everyone can cut out the ad hominem attacks, we'll all be better off.  

So far as substance, I think I addressed that.  As I outlined above, the amount of space that 100+ cars consume when you park them on the street is huge. GR_Urbanist said that there might be "maybe not enough parking".  Well, it's actually quite a bit worse than that if the city's assumptions regarding cars don't hold up.  You cannot permit high density development and assume that cars will just "park on the street".  A saturation point is reached very, very quickly where just a few high density projects could quickly consume every available parking space in a low density residential neighborhood for blocks around.  That's a serious problem from an urban development perspective.  It seems to me you need more than just speculation that people won't have cars.  You need a mechanism in place to ensure people do not bring cars.  I am curious what that mechanism would like look, or if people generally think this is not a realistic problem.

[organsnyder]

I think a big part of that mechanism is market forces accounting for the lack of a guaranteed parking space.

[x99]

5 hours ago, organsnyder said:

I think a big part of that mechanism is market forces accounting for the lack of a guaranteed parking space.

This is certainly true, but there's also the issue of dealing with an entire subdivision potentially being used as the "free" parking for a small handful of "dense" developments. The market prices in parking downtown, where there is not "free" parking.  But in areas near subdivisions like East Hills, Heritage Hill, Eastown, West Side, etc., that fails.  After all, how many people actually realize that 10-20 acres of space often can have only 100 to 150 street spaces?  "Market forces" do a notorious bad job of allocating something that is perceived to be unlimited and free.  

Sure, jas49503's answer of foreclosure and then dropping the rents eventually works quite well, but only after you've turned an entire neighborhood upside down, made people into enemies, and probably reduced everyone's property values in the process.  That's everything zoning was design to avoid.  

Maybe the answer is something as simple as requiring all vehicles owned by people who live in high density development to be stickered, and prohibiting them from being parked outside of a designated area.  Police can just run plates if there are compliance complaints.  Anyone see reasons that wouldn't work or would be a Really Bad Idea?  

[Morris]

Wood TV 8 ran a story on this, Wednesday.....here is the link:

http://woodtv.com/2016/08/24/gr-parking-concerns-71-apartments-37-spaces/

Went to the neighborhood meeting on Wednesday, and the owner of 345 State was there, and stated that he has a four foot sidewalk easement between his building and 363 State, so 363 State cannot build to 345 State's building, which is good. The neighbors talked about the trash bins, no bicycle parking in the plans, that were required by the city mirco-unit zoning, very little room for the utilities, and my concerns for ingress and egress of the parking lot onto State Street, now it is one way in from State Street, and out by the way of Madison, plus the main issue, is parking. We talked about the next steps, that would be talking to the planning commission, about the problems of the design and the scope of the project.

I also did hear, that Clarks store is going to shut down in three months, from the lady at the counter, at Clarks. 

I will try to keep this site updated on any new developments..... 

[jas49503]

Does they developer here have any experience with this type of project? Who is it?

 

how much retail is included in this?  I would hope that there is a suitable amount to support something Meaningful. 

[Morris]

On 8/26/2016 at 8:10 AM, jas49503 said:

Does they developer here have any experience with this type of project? Who is it?

 

how much retail is included in this?  I would hope that there is a suitable amount to support something Meaningful. 

Grand Rapids-based Malone Development LLC  and  Ted Lott, principal at Grand Rapids-based Lott3Metz Architecture LLC .........

https://lott3metz.com/projects

I sure hope they don't get the old owners of Clark's, as the stores tenants! I think the second floor is going to be a store, the first, or ground floor is planned for parking....(Check last sentence!) 

"One Stop Shop! Grocery, convenience, beer, liquor and wine all in one. 18 beer coolers, 16 pop coolers and 12 frozen food, dairy and grocery units. Located in robust residential quadrant with little/no competition. Sits on a hard corner, adjacent to new apartment complex. Everything included in price minus inventory. Grocery store takes approx. half of building. The remainder used for storage of ample deli, grocery and restaurant equipment currently not in use. Ideal expansion uses: Grocery store, deli/meat market/general store/expanded liquor/beer store/dine-in restaurant and more. Property located in Heritage Hill District and minutes away from downtown. Owner to consider selling real estate separate from business."

Don't know what kind of experience they have with mirco-units....but they didn't include bike parking with the plans I saw.....

[GRCentro]

On August 25, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Morris said:

Went to the neighborhood meeting on Wednesday, and the owner of 345 State was there, and stated that he has a four foot sidewalk easement between his building and 363 State, so 363 State cannot build to 345 State's building, which is good.

Apparently, the owners of 345 State are now suing the City for failing to recognize the  four foot easement in HPC's approval of the plans. I expect that they'll win the contest before the gavel is even lifted and new plans will have to be drawn.

[thebeerqueer]

Also interesting is if you google 363 State St SE, you get results for a fake "GR Downtown Market" https://goo.gl/maps/A9EkP8nqUg32 Seems like our hypothetical nomenclature has really taken off. 

[x99]

Technically, I think Clark's is actually owned by some company calling itself the "Grand Rapids Downtown Market".  

[GRDadof3]

52 minutes ago, GRCentro said:

Apparently, the owners of 345 State are now suing the City for failing to recognize the  four foot easement in HPC's approval of the plans. I expect that they'll win the contest before the gavel is even lifted and new plans will have to be drawn.

345 State is Karl Chew of Brookstone Capital, correct? 

[GVSUChris]

11 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

345 State is Karl Chew of Brookstone Capital, correct? 

Correct. 

[Morris]

On 10/26/2016 at 10:00 AM, thebeerqueer said:

Also interesting is if you google 363 State St SE, you get results for a fake "GR Downtown Market" https://goo.gl/maps/A9EkP8nqUg32 Seems like our hypothetical nomenclature has really taken off. 

That store that is shown, still shows lots of liqueur, beer, and wine.....I am wondering where they are going to get their customers from, besides their own place, 345 State, and the Section 8 Stuyvesant bridge cards, with no store parking. 

The catch about permit parking, is they only enforce it from 9 to 5, and there is no assigned parking places, so it is worthless in this situation. Heritage Hill is trying to get the area on it, but paying for spaces in front of your place, is a foreign thing in Grand Rapids.

It is interesting that the 649 Michigan project with only 18 parking spaces and 40 units went through the planning commission. Did they come up with additional parking from somewhere?

Also, the Church at Madison and Cherry is empty, and there is a large for sale sign in front. Their parking lot, as a church, was across the street, that they don't own, which they used mostly on Sundays......

[amylynne]

10 hours ago, Morris said:

The catch about permit parking, is they only enforce it from 9 to 5, and there is no assigned parking places, so it is worthless in this situation. Heritage Hill is trying to get the area on it, but paying for spaces in front of your place, is a foreign thing in Grand Rapids.

 

Per the presentation at our neighborhood meeting, permit parking can be set up to be whatever hours the neighbors and the city decide on. The one in Belknap is 9 to 5 because those are they hours they were having issues.

[GRDadof3]

11 hours ago, Morris said:

That store that is shown, still shows lots of liqueur, beer, and wine.....I am wondering where they are going to get their customers from, besides their own place, 345 State, and the Section 8 Stuyvesant bridge cards, with no store parking. 

The catch about permit parking, is they only enforce it from 9 to 5, and there is no assigned parking places, so it is worthless in this situation. Heritage Hill is trying to get the area on it, but paying for spaces in front of your place, is a foreign thing in Grand Rapids.

It is interesting that the 649 Michigan project with only 18 parking spaces and 40 units went through the planning commission. Did they come up with additional parking from somewhere?

Also, the Church at Madison and Cherry is empty, and there is a large for sale sign in front. Their parking lot, as a church, was across the street, that they don't own, which they used mostly on Sundays......

$2.2 Million. It's an interesting looking church. Admittedly I've never really paid that much attention to it before. Where were people parking?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mi/grand-rapids/200-madison-avenue/pid_9737429/

[Morris]

45 minutes ago, GRDadof3 said:

$2.2 Million. It's an interesting looking church. Admittedly I've never really paid that much attention to it before. Where were people parking?

https://www.coldwellbankerhomes.com/mi/grand-rapids/200-madison-avenue/pid_9737429/

Across Cherry, behind the Pregnancy Resource center

[thebeerqueer]

2 hours ago, amylynne said:

Per the presentation at our neighborhood meeting, permit parking can be set up to be whatever hours the neighbors and the city decide on. The one in Belknap is 9 to 5 because those are they hours they were having issues.

amylynne is correct, the permit parking program enforcement times be adjusted by each neighborhood to fit their needs more. 

What meeting were you at where they presented?

[GRDadof3]

7 hours ago, Morris said:

Across Cherry, behind the Pregnancy Resource center

Ah, got it. 

[GRCentro]

Totally aside:

Can we all agree that this image from the 200 Madison listing is impressive?

Winter is coming.

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, GRCentro said:

Totally aside:

Can we all agree that this image from the 200 Madison listing is impressive?

Winter is coming.

Yes, I saw that. Totally cool.

[walker]

Great photo, what stands out to me is how massive Stuyvesant Apartments is.  I’d say it is at least as big if not bigger than the proposed apartments on the Clark’s site.  Assuming one person per apartment, that’s about ninety people who don’t have a parking space and never did.  

Here’s some background before I get to the point of my post:  as I’ve mentioned in a couple of other posts, I used to live in an apartment just a couple of houses north on Madison in the late sixties to early seventies.  Back then I also delivered mail in the neighborhood.  I was what was called a swing man.  I had five mail routes; I carried each route one day a week when the regular carrier had a day off.  The way it worked is everyone’s day off rotated so that every fifth week your days off would fall on both a Saturday and Monday which gave you nice long week-end, the other weeks your day off fell somewhere in the middle of the week.  My routes were contiguous from Fulton to Wealthy and roughly east of Jefferson to and including Union on the west, with one additional route south of Wealthy to Franklin between Eastern and James.  It was an interesting place to work back then and it was an interesting and sometimes exciting time to be working on the street.  Eventually I quit to go to college and my subsequent jobs were far different but also varied and interesting and for the most part better paying, but looking back I’d say the job carrying mail was the most educational as far as learning about people and how they lived.  Back then the demographics of the area went to extremes and included everything in between, and because mail was much more important back then (no direct deposit or e-mail,) I knew just about everything that was going on, good or bad.  OK, all that is just to establish my credentials to talk about the immediate neighborhood.               

Back then the Stuyvesant (way before section eight housing) was full of mostly old white women.  Few if any drove.  Other than seeing them waiting for a bus, they were mostly invisible.  The first floor of the Stuyvesant had stores along the Madison side.  There was a pharmacy.  You could walk through the pharmacy to sort of a community room full of vending machines.  Mail carriers, along with other delivery people, were known to take breaks there.  There was a beauty shop, and there was a florist, Mr. Tuttle, who ran Stuyvesant Floral.  That business still exists but it is out in Wyoming now.  Clark’s was an actual full service supermarket, not a liquor store.  There were medical offices along with a few other businesses all up and down Cherry, and there were churches within relatively easy walking distance including what was then a Christian Reformed Church across the street.  So you could get by if you were one of these old ladies without a car, or even if you weren't an old lady.  The houses in the immediate neighborhood were mostly broken up into apartments.  There were a lot of old single ladies in them too, but they more likely were occupied by younger folk.  There were a lot of students and a lot of people who worked in the neighborhood, particularly people who worked at the hospital or in the medical buildings along Cherry or as waitresses or cooks downtown or in nearby restaurants.  I’d say at least half, if not more, of these people did not have cars.  They either walked or took the bus or a taxi to where they had to go.  For example, there was an apartment behind mine that was always occupied by Kendall students.  How they got to school I don’t know because Kendall back then was on College just south of Leonard, a fairly long walk.  This was also the early days of Heritage Hill and people were starting to remodel some of the houses back to single family homes and many of the houses never were divided into apartments.  These people had the means and space to have their own cars and they did.

So I’m not talking about the nineteen thirties here, this was the late sixties and early seventies, we were  close to the heights of the car culture, and here was a neighborhood that was dense and quite livable to most of the people that lived there, although it was somewhat limited by suburban standards.  Personally I’m a car person, I can’t imagine living without a car and I had a car and a place to park it back then.  But we keep hearing about how young people don’t so much want to drive anymore, and that they would prefer to take Uber or buses or rent a Zipcar for an hour, or in the future call a self-driving car.  I hear that stuff but I’m an old man now and I don’t hang out that much anymore so I don’t know if that’s really true.  But if it is, maybe we don’t need near as much parking at Madison and Cherry as a suburban development.  Still, if you live somewhere along Cherry and don’t have a car, it would probably be nice to be able to buy a few groceries somewhere nearby.   I’m not suggesting that parking can be totally ignored but maybe the market can sort things out; the people who can’t afford or don’t want to have a car or shouldn’t drive will find their way to this neighborhood and the people who need a couple of SUVs will end up out where that’s doable.  Just like it’s always been.  

Sorry for the ramble, old man and his stories, just turned seventy.                                           
 

[joeDowntown]

We like your old man stories. Good stuff. I worked on the first floor of Stuyvesant in the early nineties and it was a MUCH different atmosphere (height of the Wealthy Street Boys) era. I'd be the first in every morning and had to deal with the aftermath from the night before. Many break in attempts, someone got both of their ankles shot (with accompanying blood trail that traced his getaway), etc. definitely interesting times. Clarks was awful by then (food, selection, etc). 

Interesting how areas change over the years. 

Joe

[RegalTDP]

@walker, "Swing Man" is the awesomest job title I've ever heard.  I hope you still introduce yourself that way to people you meet.

Thank you for sharing that, it was amazing.

[x99]

On 10/29/2016 at 0:44 PM, walker said:

Great photo, what stands out to me is how massive Stuyvesant Apartments is.  I’d say it is at least as big if not bigger than the proposed apartments on the Clark’s site.  Assuming one person per apartment, that’s about ninety people who don’t have a parking space and never did.  

Unless the Kent County GIS maps are in error (which they could be), Stuyvesant actually has has title to about 30 spaces, give or take, behind the Pregnancy Resource Center.  It isn't a ton of parking, but it may be adequate for a low income housing project.  When Morton was being operated the same way as Stuyvesant, it had no parking and the building was still waitlisted, I believe.  Dedicated Section 8 is a very different demographic from market rate housing, and parking may not be as large an issue.  The only real data point we have for new high end stuff without any parking is Morton, and the data right now shows 25% empty.  Whether there is any cause and effect relationship there, I have no idea. 

Your other points about how walkable Heritage Hill once was are well taken.  I tend to agree that it is not a very walkable neighborhood.  Despite its proximity to downtown, many neighborhoods elsewhere are far more walkable.  

[Morris]

Just heard in the Heritage Herald, the Heritage Hill neighborhood paper, that Clarks, is going to become a Dollar General......The existing building will be modified, with it's front windows replaced, and a new roof line on it. The 71 micro unit apartment plan was scraped.